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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2011.08.31 13:24:00 - [1]
 

CCP Ginger's newest dev blog discusses the many positive changes that are coming in the next EVElopedia beta. Be sure to check out his blog here, and if you're interested in helping the EVElopedia team, YARR is currently looking for volunteers.

Update: For those of you interested in the Immersion Project, we've ninja added something about it at the end of the blog :)

inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:34:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:52:01
Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:51:30
Interesting. Make it wide (not like in the second picture, where 1/3 to 1/2 of the screen is used to show me nightmares instead of information) and you'll be involuntarilly making it awesome as well.

Edit: WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity

Fia Masutra
Central Inventions Agency
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:43:00 - [3]
 

1. Nice to see this getting some attention again. I always thought the EVElopedia to be underutilized. Looking forward to good articles and portals.

2. Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.
(It doesn't make your content look bigger.)

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:01:00 - [4]
 

Sounds good, I am mostly interested in the "immersion" project and how well it will tie in within eve itself the old blog about it and the bit of information we got showed promise.

I hope the immersion project is more then a large scale wiki though. They wiki is great for info but I am hoping on a more RP/Immersion athmosphere for the immersion project.

Hawks Eye
Gallente
Inroads
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:27:00 - [5]
 

<3

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:29:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger in the Dev Blog
The rules arenít that complex, but basically boil down to "donít be a wanker."


There are plenty of people (in-game) who make it their goal to be as much of a wanker as possible.

Why is "wanker" censored but "tosser", "jackoff", "jerkoff", "masturbator" not?

Pak Narhoo
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:41:00 - [7]
 

why, oh why do you waste so much space on A HUGE STUPID BANNER in your wiki?


Senai Dorslan
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:41:00 - [8]
 

Not only is it good to see this is progressing, this was an enjoyable blog read. Taking the tone of equals as opposed to how some other blogs have sounded a bit as if they are talking down to the customers, is how I like to see these.

I have wondered if the wiki was even being updated at all. This will help out lots of players immensely, especially the fact that they will be using content from other sources and linking to them. A big step in the right direction.

WachinDaGame DrinkinABud
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:43:00 - [9]
 

Was this on that list of stuff to fix even? Seems to me there are enough third party sources to cover this information already.

Efraya
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:52:00 - [10]
 

Everyone loves a re-worked back end ;-)

CCP Abraxas

Posted - 2011.08.31 14:56:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ciar Meara
I hope the immersion project is more then a large scale wiki though. They wiki is great for info but I am hoping on a more RP/Immersion athmosphere for the immersion project.


The Immersion Project is definitely more than that, but the very first part we launch will be an out-of-game large scale wiki section. Once we've hammered out the kinks in the fiction wiki, iterated on it and gotten it stable, we'll move on to the in-game part.

Incidentally, note that the core of the project is and likely will remain the wiki, which holds all the lore - not the in-game part, which is intended to function primarily as a roleplayed portal to the wiki. We may eventually do some other clever things with the in-game section, but they're not the point of the whole project.

I'll do a separate dev blog on the Immersion Project later on.

Tork Norand
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
The Ancients.
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:10:00 - [12]
 


I concur with others....get rid of the extra graphics that add nothing to the content that you are providing within the articles.

<engage rant style mode>
If I have to scroll 2/3 the way through a page load just to get to useful information, the site is useless to me. Background images and banner images waste time as they load. If I were in the "real Eve universe" I would have a blocker in place for that crap. I already play the game, I already look forward to what's coming out, I don't need it shoved down my throat with big pictures that waste my time and screen space.
<disengage rant style mode>

Use the new Google model: Short, simple links across the top to different things that open in different tabs. Just because I want something else doesn't mean I want to leave where I'm at. You have tabbed browsers in the game and out, use them. Middle mouse buttons in a browser by default (in my experience) open things in a new tab....but not in the in-game browser. So make new links open in a new tab by default.

(Sorry, can't seem to let the graphics topic alone....) Adding graphics to a "look-up site" doesn't make it sexy....good information presented concisely makes a "look-up site" sexy.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Fia Masutra

2. Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.
(It doesn't make your content look bigger.)

I don't agree, it's much easier on the eyes to not have to span the entire screen when you read something. Why do you think newspapers have their text in columns and not just right over the entire page?

Ifly Uwalk
Caldari
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:15:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Fia Masutra
Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.


Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:25:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 31/08/2011 15:27:03
Seems like a bunch of cool changes, with one exception. Fixed-width is stupid. It was stupid when you used it for Eve Gate, it was stupid when you used it for the new forums, and it's stupid on Evelopedia. Stop using fixed-width for anything ever - I have a widescreen monitor, and I want to use more than a third of my available space for content, not slow-loading backdrops. I'm kind of indifferent on the visual changes, but if you're going to make changes please stop destroying my functionality in the process.

Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Fia Masutra

2. Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.
(It doesn't make your content look bigger.)

I don't agree, it's much easier on the eyes to not have to span the entire screen when you read something. Why do you think newspapers have their text in columns and not just right over the entire page?


Because newspapers want to put large numbers of articles on a very big sheet of paper? Also, newspapers predate computer layout software, and columns had to have been easier for manual layout, so I'd wager that inertia is a big factor too. And have you ever seen a newspaper website with columns?

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:33:00 - [16]
 

It is great that the wiki is being given some love. The quality of the articles is such that I send new players there instead of external resources now. However...

Originally by: inexistin
WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity
This.

Too much space wasted on pictures and banners.

Publius Valerius
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:53:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Publius Valerius on 31/08/2011 16:05:00
A stupid question: Will the backround be black or #222?, because on the pic it is #222...
Second Question can be found here.
Third Question is about the width, on EVE gate, the page doesnt broke when it gets smaller... I like it... will be it the same in Evelopedia?.. I ask because currently I have this temporary help.
Forth Question: About the Iteam-icons... their still the old ones... thats why I couldnt change the LP Stores... is their a update comeing as well?
Fifth Question, again about the width... what will be the max-width on a page... because we have currently a lot of pages which just really need this extra width.. like: here (with max-width:1200px)
Sixth Question about the Portals...
"Implemented a content portal system

We are implementing a portal system to make it easier to navigate around various subjects, something we were really lacking before. Hunting for something specific is fine, but trying to find all the help you can on mining or PvP can be laborious. Weíve started the portal system in this release and hopefully the some of you will come on board and help us expand it post release."

What will be?.. more like CSM Portal or Community Portal with alot of infos.. or more a spiderweb portal... with just the basics?

____________________________
Edit:
Seventh Question I almost forgot... can be found here (is a old one, P.S.s the links of the Chron Signs of Faith are gone:(... can be found here).


P.S. skip the banner, I think it wasnt also in the new forum.. if I remember right... but this isnt the issue what I have.... It is that the colors like #17181A, #222, #3e3d45 etc... define he EVE-Look... and not the banner. That banner makes just all pages identical at first sight...

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:53:00 - [18]
 

I'm a long time fan of the EVElopedia and the more it gets integrated into the game client the better IMO.

Its good to hear that the community hosted wikis are going to be integrated too, that should greatly increase the number and quality of articles.

SuHwak
Trust is Value
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:54:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: SuHwak on 31/08/2011 16:04:34
Edited by: SuHwak on 31/08/2011 16:01:44
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
It is great that the wiki is being given some love. The quality of the articles is such that I send new players there instead of external resources now. However...

Originally by: inexistin
WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity
This.

Too much space wasted on pictures and banners.


I do not really agree, I hate having to go find the right next sentence when text is streched out over 1600+ pixels wide. He probably has something like a 1680x1024 resolution, or maybe even higher. However, you would want to be able to read this page in-game and on smaller screens as well!

EDIT: Example site doing the same thing. This is my #1 fav site:

Narrow
Wide


Hiram Alexander
Caldari
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:59:00 - [20]
 

Personally, I approve of the narrow column design. I know a lot of people will dislike it, and see it as a waste of real-estate, but it is far easier on the eye to read.

What I hate... Is the huge ad banner at the top. It's truly pointless; could you possibly ask your Marketing people to take a step back from time to time, it's a wiki ffs... And besides, why are you still advertising the Incursion expansion anyway?

To me, the only thing more important than actual 'information' in a wiki, is clearly understandable (and functional) navigation. For a lot of people, that banner ad is going to take up almost all of their window when they read the wiki in-game.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Originally by: Fia Masutra
Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.



DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:16:00 - [22]
 

Lots of negative comments about CCP since june.

I'm glad this is a change I'm very happy about! We can almost say: EVE has a manual! Wink

Lets hope this is the start of a new positive wave of improvements to EVE. I'm tired of ranting at CCP, instead give me more stuff to congratulate you on.



Officer Spawn
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:25:00 - [23]
 

I've noticed something peculiar on the recent patch notes and dev blogs: everything could just as easily be for World of Darkness. API export, forums, a wiki, a MMO Facebook clone, clothes, your Captain's Quarters, none of it is even remotely related to EVE Online.

Is this what you are trying to keep out of the CSM Summit minutes, that all EVE development is now limited to stuff that can also be used in WoD ?

Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:26:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: inexistin
Interesting. Make it wide (not like in the second picture, where 1/3 to 1/2 of the screen is used to show me nightmares instead of information) and you'll be involuntarilly making it awesome as well.

Edit: WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity


This,
everything else, thumbs up!

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:31:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Sarmatiko on 31/08/2011 16:38:12
Originally by: Fia Masutra
2. Stop wasting everyone's screen space with your narrow design.

this
I'm using wikipedia or eve-survival to read content.
There is no content in flash banner with ugly EVE character. There is no content in huge "lets-use-it-everywhere" background.

Please make Evelopedia readable, because this is main purpose of wiki. If you trying to make another useless ugly appendix to evegate then stop wasting our time with such devblogs.

The bad thing - no one will listen us and we have to read stuff in this crappy design anyway (or leave ofc). This is the result of enourmous hatestorm in the last few years. Now if design (or something else) is really horrible, CCP will just ignore all comments and push it anyway because "users are dumb and hate always".

Elyon Itari
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:33:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Daedalus II
[...]Why do you think newspapers have their text in columns and not just right over the entire page?


Because newspapers want to put large numbers of articles on a very big sheet of paper? Also, newspapers predate computer layout software, and columns had to have been easier for manual layout, so I'd wager that inertia is a big factor too. And have you ever seen a newspaper website with columns?


Newspapers have their text in columns because the longer each line of text gets, the more difficult it is to correctly switch to the next one at the end of the line.
I believe around 65 characters (depending on font) was found to be the longest line width without average readers having issues jumping to the next line.

Regarding newspaper websites:
In the past (and somewhat at present), it has not been trivial to set up nicely flowing columns on webpages. CSS3 makes this job easier, but as IE8 is still used heavily (and IE6 and 7, to a degree), it will be some time until news sites will feel confident in using these advances.
Newspaper websites usually have plenty of sidebar-age to decrease the width of the actual article (due to the reading difficulties mentioned above), though.

Variable width is acceptable on wikipedia is because a lot of users with a lot of browsers in a lot of OSes on a lot of devices with a lot of screen sizes want to be able to read wikipedia, and it all just works better if you let the individual user/agent handle the formatting.
EVELopedia is probably made with the IGB and regular desktop/laptop/netbook browsing in mind. If they stick to fixed-width, I hope it is lower than 1024 pixels.

Finally, let me ask: have you ever seen a newspaper website with variable-width articles?

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:18:00 - [27]
 

Thank you Elyon Itari, finally someone with a clue :p

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:34:00 - [28]
 

You like Goonswarm? BIAS!

Lolmer
Amarr
Merciless Reckoning
Executive Solution
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:27:00 - [29]
 

All good and great news except for your ******ed (I'm being nice here, honest!) to use the EvE Gate-like layout. That is not sexy or better, it wastes my screen space. Instead, keep the current design until you can fix your "sexy" design to not have fixed width. Seriously. No really, seriously, I mean it, fixed width is so '90s. If you wan to use fixed width you might as well use <blink> and <marquee> as well.

PS: Wow, you sensor "r e t a r d e d"? The sensoring makes the word look much worse than it is.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:30:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Elyon Itari
Newspapers have their text in columns because the longer each line of text gets, the more difficult it is to correctly switch to the next one at the end of the line.
I believe around 65 characters (depending on font) was found to be the longest line width without average readers having issues jumping to the next line.

Regarding newspaper websites:
In the past (and somewhat at present), it has not been trivial to set up nicely flowing columns on webpages. CSS3 makes this job easier, but as IE8 is still used heavily (and IE6 and 7, to a degree), it will be some time until news sites will feel confident in using these advances.
Newspaper websites usually have plenty of sidebar-age to decrease the width of the actual article (due to the reading difficulties mentioned above), though.

Variable width is acceptable on wikipedia is because a lot of users with a lot of browsers in a lot of OSes on a lot of devices with a lot of screen sizes want to be able to read wikipedia, and it all just works better if you let the individual user/agent handle the formatting.
EVELopedia is probably made with the IGB and regular desktop/laptop/netbook browsing in mind. If they stick to fixed-width, I hope it is lower than 1024 pixels.

Finally, let me ask: have you ever seen a newspaper website with variable-width articles?


It's not something I've ever thought of, frankly - there's not many newspaper articles that are long enough for me to care how much real estate they waste. When people actually want to seriously write, like on forums, then I start to care about screen density. And the current forums are just fine for going to the next line at 1680px wide - in fact it's sometimes easier than on my old 1280px, because paragraphs are shorter, so there's fewer lines to get confused between. Adding white lines as paragraph spacers makes the problem pretty much vanish. I'm reading you at 200 characters to the line, and it's trivial to jump down.

That said, I'm fine with fixed-width as an option. If you like it, more power to you, but I want variable-width to at least be possible.


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