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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.06 14:57:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 14:37:08
No one claimed that there is no trace of the "integrated" cultures.

A lot of those cultures are lost (excepting maybe the Khanid), because the Amarr considered those degenerated. We do not know how much, because, well, you see, that's what lost means.

We do know that greater parts of the Minmatar culture was suppressed and was not present in Amarr anymore. We know that, because we have some outside records and the Minmatar have only been under subjugation for eight hundred years.

We do not know how much of the Ni-Kunni culture was lost. There is only now some research starting to find that out, and that was what I was referring to.

So when the good admiral claims that "[t]he Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up", he speaks from a typical point of Amarrian hubris. The Minmatar when we were encountered were a spacefaring nation spanning multiple solar systems if not regions. Despite that, the Amarr will not cease to call us primitive to feel justified in their "educational mission". It's highly fascinating to research the Ni-Kunni culture to see what their advances were before the Amarr rebranded them as "their own" or tried to eradicate them for being degenerated.



Just because the Minmatars were decent at tinkering with technology when we found them, it doesn't mean that they weren't morally or culturally primitive.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.06 16:01:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 16:17:13
"Primitive" for you means nothing but "different from Amarr".

A monotheistic culture without a secular state that extensively employs slavery and puts a strong cultural significance on attacking their neighbors could be called "primitive".

You use the term "primitive" as a blanket justification to simply do away with unique cultural traits. The Amarr tried to do away with tattooing, for example. They failed with that one, but a lot of the old knowledge is gone. How much more of that is lost for cultures like the Ni-Kunni, under Amarrian oppression for so much longer?

How much more desperate will the Amarr yell that everyone they subjugated was totally "primitive" if more evidence shows up that they weren't? At which point will even the last decent Amarrian realize that the claims of "primitivism" of other cultures is nothing more than a desperate attempt to close your eyes before the barbarism of your own deranged culture?

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.06 20:05:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 06/09/2011 20:05:58
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 16:17:13
The Amarr tried to do away with tattooing, for example. They failed with that one, but a lot of the old knowledge is gone.

Cpt. Sadik,

you claim that the Amarr 'tried to do away with tattooing'. This, generalized like this, isn't really true. For example there's a time honored and distinct tradition of tattooing in Amarrian culture itself, as the markings on my face might tell you - no, these aren't Matari tattoos as the distinct design shows.

In fact though, the Amarr tried to suppress the practice of tattooing as found with the Minmatar. Honestly, I think there have been good reasons: with the rite of Voluval leading to various forms of persecution which might go as far as forced exile or even death.

That's not simple tattooing. One should keep that in mind, before verbally ostracizing someone for his or her 'deranged culture'.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.06 20:15:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
In fact though, the Amarr tried to suppress the practice of tattooing as found with the Minmatar. Honestly, I think there have been good reasons


Thank you for making my point.

The Amarr did not simply forbid the Voluval or "bad marks" to protect some poor victims, they tried to suppress all Minmatar tatooing. Once again, you close your eyes before your own barbaric culture and give sermons about "good reasons."

The Amarr suppress culture they do not like, for no good reasons, always hiding behind ridiculous claims of moral superiority. Which means that there is likely a lot of interesting culture to be found studying the Ni-Kunni.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.06 20:30:00 - [65]
 

You're welcome, for indeed, I don't at all like cultural practices that lead to casting people out without reason and senseless murder. I don't deny that at all. Though I doubt that means that I don't have good reasons for that.

The easiest way to resolve the situation with the Voluval was suppressing the entire practice of tattooing as it was and is intricately intertwined with the negative consequences of the ritual. While I would agree that this isn't the best solution to the problem, I indeed hold the lives of humans in higher esteem than the 'freedom' to put pictures on my face.

If you say that lives of humans aren't good reasons and some ink on your skin weighs heavier, that's your opinion. Sometimes, we have to make decisions that have negative as well as positive consequences. You choose paint, I human lives.

And indeed - there is lots of interesting culture found with the Ni-Kunni, the Khanid, and other ethnic and cultural units within the Empire. Did you know, for example, that Sarumite culture differs greatly form, say, Tash-Murkonese?

It's simply not true that Amarr is a one-culture-has to-fit-all Empire which is plotting evil schemes to reduce cultural diversity.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.06 20:43:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 20:47:53
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
You choose paint, I human lives.


No, you do not.

The Amarr kill so-called "cowards" who have the good sense of retreating before a stronger enemy - together with their families, even.

They have no issues letting slaves die in large numbers in their "work for God."

You do not choose lives, you choose lies. The worst is, I think you even believe them.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.06 21:08:00 - [67]
 

It's good to see you know better than me what I choose.
And there they say that's what we Amarr usually claim.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.07 16:21:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 16:17:13
"Primitive" for you means nothing but "different from Amarr".



Personally, I can't think of anything more culturally or morally primitive than the consequences of your barbaric Voluval ritual.

Exiling someone or cutting out their tongue because they get the wrong result in a glorified lottery? It's about as primitive as it gets!


Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.07 19:25:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Personally, I can't think of anything more culturally or morally primitive than the consequences of your barbaric Voluval ritual.

Exiling someone or cutting out their tongue because they get the wrong result in a glorified lottery? It's about as primitive as it gets!


Personally, I find a law that forces every heir of a family to get their hand cut off because one of their ancestors killed a pet of a princess more barbaric.[1] Or enslaving the families of captains who retreat from a superior enemy, and putting the families of those who did fight and not retreat into disgrace because the captains did not win.[2] But I'm not sure we really want to do a "your culture is more barbaric than mine" here.

Regarding your example there, it should be mentioned that the "bad mark" is not practiced in all clans - there are Voluval ceremonies that do not include that at all. Also, The "punishment" for a bad mark is not getting the tongue cut out. People who receive a bad mark always have the option to choose exile over any other punishment. If they choose against exile, they voluntarily pick up the consequences of that mark. These voluntarily chosen consequences might (in some clans) include a vow of silence. The breaking of said voluntarily-chosen vow is - again, in some clans only - punished with the tongue being cut out. Most bearers of bad marks choose exile, and there is no harm done to them. (NB: I'm not defending the practice, I'm correcting false claims.)

This, incidentally, is a good example of one of the fundamental differences between the Amarr and the Minmatar culture: The Amarr force their beliefs and preferences onto others, while the Minmatar culture allows others to "opt out" of it. Neither allows "outsiders" to actively participate in the culture unless they adapt to the culture's requirements. I have written a more extensive text on this in another thread.[3]


Considering how the Amarr are twisting the traits of the "barbaric" cultures that exist today to put them into some bad light, I am just getting more and more interested in seeing what we can find out about the Ni-Kunni culture - the Amarr will have eradicated a lot of the unique cultural traits, but luckily, archaeology is a great thing.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.07 20:06:00 - [70]
 

I think it is appalling how you romanticise forced exile as a way to 'opt out'. Especially as, really, wherever you are you have this option. But you know as well as me, that not everybody has the means to get away with their lifes in time, when the pitchforked and torch-wearing mob is out to lynch you because your mark somehow resembles the imperial crest.

And as if the exile is a form of non-forcing beliefs on others. Of course it is exactly forcing your beliefs on others if you give them only the option of, say, exile or death. I mean, given that kind of reasoning we Amarr would be all justified to say: But the slave can opt between slavery and death.

There is no right to be as you wish to be, if it means that someone who'd wish to be with his Minmatar childhood friend, his family in the Republic, but isn't allowed to be exactly that.

And lastly, arguing that we Amarr are barbaric doesn't make the Voluval any less barbaric.

And your mantra-like recitation of Ni-Kunni culture and the need of archeology to find out about seems to be likewise aimed at distracting from the fact, that your Republic is certainly not a Paradise either and that you have a lot of cleaning to do, before you can claim your house to be in order. I suggest you do just that: And I'd like to see how you solve the problem of the Voluval without touching the traditional tattooing as practiced by the Matari. I don't see how you or anyone else will succeed in doing so. So you do nothing about exile, death and all the like. Because - so you rationalize - they can 'opt out', after all, can't they?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.07 20:35:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 07/09/2011 20:36:41
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
I think it is appalling how you romanticise forced exile as a way to 'opt out'.


I prefer forced exile to forced slavery, and explained how our cultures use those two for similar purposes - a good example of a very basic difference between our cultures. I am not "romanticizing" either.

You will also not find me claiming that the Republic is a "paradise". Discussing with you is very tiring, as you do not respond to what others say, but only to what you want them to have said.

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
And your mantra-like recitation of Ni-Kunni culture and the need of archeology to find out about seems to be likewise aimed at distracting


The Ni-Kunni culture was the topic that sparked off this beautiful discussion - I am simply coming back to the original point instead of getting sidetracked.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.07 22:28:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 07/09/2011 22:31:54
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I prefer forced exile to forced slavery, and explained how our cultures use those two for similar purposes - a good example of a very basic difference between our cultures. I am not "romanticizing" either.

Then why do you describe forced exile as a way to 'opt out' and to 'be as they wish' for those that are forced into exile?

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
You will also not find me claiming that the Republic is a "paradise". Discussing with you is very tiring, as you do not respond to what others say, but only to what you want them to have said.

And I've got the impression that discussing with you is tiresome, because you don't stay on topic.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The Ni-Kunni culture was the topic that sparked off this beautiful discussion - I am simply coming back to the original point instead of getting sidetracked.

And there I thought this discussion was sparked off by the topic "Amarrian abolitionist speak out", which was more like an attempt to motivate those to do so. And that the Ni-Kunni were one of various points that'd help to 'prove' that all slavery is evil, because it's aim is just subjugating advanced races out of Amarrian angst. But maybe I'm the one posting in the wrong thread? I'll check that.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.07 23:11:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Then why do you describe forced exile as a way to 'opt out' and to 'be as they wish' for those that are forced into exile?


I have not described anything as "be as they wish". Why do you insist on misquoting me?

I have described the practice of the Voluval and the bad marks. I have not taken any stance whatsoever on whether it's a "good practice" or a "bad practice". I even wrote this rather explicitly:

I'm not defending the practice, I'm correcting false claims.

I have also described the cultural difference between the Amarr and the Minmatar:

In the Amarrian culture, if you want to be break certain cultural requirements (e.g. be in the family of a captain who retreated from a superior enemy), you are turned into a slave. For certain situations, you get released from slavery once you adhere to the cultural requirements (e.g. turning from a non-believer into a believer).

In the Minmatar culture, if you want to break certain cultural requirements (e.g. receive a certain mark), you get the option of either leaving your clan, or to follow the cultural requirements (e.g. take a vow of silence). Under certain circumstances, you can also return from exile (clan-dependent).

Basically, the Amarrian culture says "do as we want or we will take you prisoner", while the Minmatar culture says "do as we want or go away."

The above contains no value judgement. It's a factual observation. If you feel that the factual observation of the Minmatar culture is somehow more positive, that is your own choosing.

I can assure you that exile is a very cruel fate for a Minmatar, as our clans are very important to us. Without a clan, we are nothing. Exile is not nice. That you think I am implying that it would be shows how little you know of the Minmatar.

Quote:
And there I thought this discussion was sparked off by the topic "Amarrian abolitionist speak out", which was more like an attempt to motivate those to do so. And that the Ni-Kunni were one of various points that'd help to 'prove' that all slavery is evil, because it's aim is just subjugating advanced races out of Amarrian angst.


How silly.

The claim was The Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up. I have been working on disproving this claim. Others told me my disproving was faulty for various reasons - of course I have to get back to my claims regarding the Ni-Kunni, because that's what people have tried to disprove.

This has nothing to do with whether "all slavery is evil" or somesuch. Personally, I couldn't care less if the Amarr enslave each other for however long they want.

Which brings us back to the cultural differences between the Amarr and the Minmatar: For me, it does not matter what you do among your own tribes, pardon, houses, as long as you stick to yourself. For you, it does matter what we do amongst ourselves. Again, no value judgement, factual observation.

Next, cultural eradication. The Amarr do not only try to teach others who never asked for the advice how to "behave better", they also try to remove historic evidence of cultural traits, apparently in an attempt to mark those cultures as more primitive than they actually were or are. Again, factual observation.

Now, a value judgement:

I, personally, like the Minmatar culture more.

But I choose for myself. I do not choose for you. You can pick whichever culture you prefer and become happy in it. Sadly, the Amarr did choose to stick their noses into tribal business. I'm working on fixing the damage caused by this. The problem with this, besides it being a rather big task, is that the Amarr seem rather eager to continue sticking their nose into tribal business. A more lasting solution is needed. I hope the abolitionists can provide such a solution.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.08 13:46:00 - [74]
 

Quote:
Basically, the Amarrian culture says "do as we want or we will take you prisoner", while the Minmatar culture says "do as we want or go away."


"Do as we want or we will take you prisoner" is the basis of most civilised legal systems.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 19:50:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I have not described anything as "be as they wish". Why do you insist on misquoting me?

Well, you said: "We tend to "exclude" people, but give them the right to be as they wish to be, as long as they do it "elsewhere".[1] (emphasis is mine) So, I honestly don't see how I misquote you.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
In the Amarrian culture, if you want to be break certain cultural requirements (e.g. be in the family of a captain who retreated from a superior enemy), you are turned into a slave.

Uh, I don't see how being in a family of one of the Cpt. that served at Vak'Atioth is one wanting to break cultural requirements.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
In the Minmatar culture, if you want to break certain cultural requirements (e.g. receive a certain mark), you get the option of either leaving your clan, or to follow the cultural requirements (e.g. take a vow of silence).

I don't see how recieving a mark is wanting to break cultural requirements, either. So at least you've a symmetry there.

Well, with the exception that the battle at Vak'Atioth was pretty much a singular event with an even more singular reaction. The reaction was determined not so much by tradition, as there was no tradition for such cases - simply because things like that didn't happen to us Amarr in millenia.
On the other hand, what happens to those with bad marks isn't a singular reaction of your culture as the event isn't singular as well. There's a huge difference, as you don't seem to really grasp that Vak'Atioth was a giant break with how things ran in the Empire - not only that it happened, but also the kind of reaction that followed.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Basically, the Amarrian culture says "do as we want or we will take you prisoner", while the Minmatar culture says "do as we want or go away."

There might be such a tendency (and I agree with Admiral Blake's remark - even the Matari do that with their 'normal', vulgo: non-marked criminals more often than not)

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The above contains no value judgement. It's a factual observation.

While it contains no explicit value judgment, it misrepresents what happened in the aftermath of Vak'Atioth and misplaces it as something which is the usual modus operandi within the Empire.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
If you feel that the factual observation of the Minmatar culture is somehow more positive, that is your own choosing.

Again knowing better what I choose than me? I'm not agreeing with your misrepresentation of Amarrian culture. Also, your 'factual observations' seem to be colored by your preference for Matari culture...

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
That you think I am implying that it [Exile] would be [nice] shows how little you know of the Minmatar.

I never said you implied it would be nice, your wording was colouring it as "the right to be as they wish to be, as long as they do it 'elsewhere'." (See above) Forced exile isn't a right to freedom, it's simple as that.


Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:36:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The claim was The Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up.

And it was claimed why? To give an example that slavery works. It's not the main topic here, it's merely an aside.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I have been working on disproving this claim.

You haven't been working on that, you simply claimed that it must be wrong and that archeology will produce the results you've been postulating. Your premise for that was: "Considering how the Amarr talk about the Minmtar culture before they deprived us of our freedom, I fully expect the Ni-Kunni to turn out to be a spacefaring civilization with advanced knowledge that the Amarr felt threatened by and exterminated out of xenophobia." You also were directly immunizing that claim of yours, should archeology not provide the results you 'wish' for: "But who knows, the Amarr are sadly very efficient at eradicting foreign cultures."
So let me get this straight: Either archeology will show that the Amarr destroyed a culture there or the Amarr were that 'good' at destroying it, that you can't find any remains? How convenient.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
This has nothing to do with whether "all slavery is evil" or somesuch. Personally, I couldn't care less if the Amarr enslave each other for however long they want.

Why then is it self-evident that the Ni-Kunni had a higly developed culture that was destroyed by the Amarr? Nothing to do with "all slavery is evil"? I doubt it, and I think I doubt with good reason.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Which brings us back to the cultural differences between the Amarr and the Minmatar: For me, it does not matter what you do among your own tribes, pardon, houses, as long as you stick to yourself. For you, it does matter what we do amongst ourselves.


You have a weird use of 'me' and especially 'you'. I can tell you, for 'me' it might matter if and how the Voluval is done in the Republic, but still, I don't think it's my place to got try and change that. I've more than enough work to do within the Empire. So, what you do in your space is none of my concern - with the exception of the warzone, of course.

Now, while I believe that it doesn't matter for you what I do to Amarrians (though you might have an interesting definition of what an Amarrian (citizen?) is), if you want to be fair you just can't use 'you' as a way to ascribe what you percieve as the usual Amarrian way of dealing with things to me and and the same time use 'me' as a way to not take up responsibility for the view the general Republician has on that matter.

You as a person see things from a different angle than your co-citizens. Maybe you should grant that to me as well, before making a stereotypical Amarr out of me in your perception as ?

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Again, no value judgement, factual observation.

One of your mantras, isn't it? If you're that factual in your observations, there's surely no need to point it out every other sentence, no? To me it seems to be an instrument to distract from your shady use of 'you' versus 'me'.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Next, cultural eradication. The Amarr do not only try to teach others who never asked for the advice how to "behave better", they also try to remove historic evidence of cultural traits, apparently in an attempt to mark those cultures as more primitive than they actually were or are.

This, again is not "factual observation", but a fundamental misunderstanding of Amarrian culture. While it is true that certain information is not publically availabe in the Empire, it's not that historic data is removed. Control of information flow is used by all four big players of New Eden - and the small ones as well. Neither is that information entirely 'removed', though, nor is the purpose to mark cultures as more primitive than they were.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:41:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 08/09/2011 21:01:30
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I have not described anything as "be as they wish". Why do you insist on misquoting me?

Well, you said: "We tend to "exclude" people, but give them the right to be as they wish to be, as long as they do it "elsewhere".[1] (emphasis is mine) So, I honestly don't see how I misquote you.


You are indeed right, and I am sorry for the accusation.

The point I was (unsuccessfully) trying to make is the combination of "you can be as you wish to be, except you can not wish to be that here." Simply quoting half of this statement would be misrepresenting my position.

Quote:
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
That you think I am implying that it [Exile] would be [nice] shows how little you know of the Minmatar.

I never said you implied it would be nice, your wording was colouring it as "the right to be as they wish to be, as long as they do it 'elsewhere'." (See above) Forced exile isn't a right to freedom, it's simple as that.


Oh, but I do agree with this, you know. As I mentioned.

Forced exile is not a right to be as you wish to be (obviously), it's a right to be as you wish to be elsewhere. This is a very strong example of one of the very basic differences between the Amarr and the Minmatar cultures.

Slavery (my main example of Amarrian's forced inclusion, by the way, not Vak'atioth) is neither a "right to freedom" - using the phrase above, it's a "duty to be as others wish you to be, but you can be that here."

The preference for one over the other is a cultural difference, and in my opinion a very important one. Difference, meaning, it's "different", not necessarily (objectively) "better" or "worse".

Incidentally, you will find that even in the common criminal system, clans quite regularly prefer casting out over imprisonment (and repairs over imprisonment, but that's another topic). Considering the importance of clans for a Minmatar, though, it's considered a very strong punishment, so it's not done regularly.

And of course it's not a binary attribute, for either culture.

We have drifted quite far from the original topic, or even the topic directly related to the original topic. I think my opinion by now would be:

The Amarr regularly try to eradicate greater parts of other cultures. Eradicate, as in "remove from history", not just "stop the practice" - despite claims to the contrary, this is what the Amarr tried to with e.g. tattooing. They later then claim that these cultures were "primitive", which is difficult to argue for (or against) because the term is not well-defined and the lack of uncolored information about the original culture. Hence it's difficult to argue whether slavery actually "improves" any of the subjugated cultures. (This was the "side-track" about the Ni-Kunni.)

Once this argument is shown as faulty, the arguments against abolition then become somewhat thin.

Slavery has created an environment where large parts of the cluster actively despise the Amarrian god and are actively fighting against the Amarr. Even among slaves of the 9th generation and above, there is a good number of those who despise the Amarrian god. Thousands of believers die every day for no gain in ground whatsoever.

This seems quite unsuccessful. Considering changing an approach which seems to not work sounds sensible.

Good luck to the abolitionists - I do hope you can rescue some parts of your culture before the traditionalists have finished their destructive work.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:54:00 - [78]
 

Honestly, that they were overcome by the Empire is more than enough evidence in the eyes of the Empire's doctrine that they were in need of a guiding hand.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Now, a value judgement:

I, personally, like the Minmatar culture more.

But I choose for myself. I do not choose for you. You can pick whichever culture you prefer and become happy in it. Sadly, the Amarr did choose to stick their noses into tribal business. I'm working on fixing the damage caused by this. The problem with this, besides it being a rather big task, is that the Amarr seem rather eager to continue sticking their nose into tribal business. A more lasting solution is needed. I hope the abolitionists can provide such a solution.

The Empire was acknowledging and - in fact - still is acknowledging the sovereign status of the Republic. And believe me, there are lots and lots of Republic citizens who don't stop sticking their nose in the Empire's business. Your one sided (or at least: lop-sided) approach to the Amarr-Minmatar problem is really disheartening.
Also, there will be no abolition of slavery in the Empire. There'll be changes to the system of slavery, but the system will probably remain as long as the Empire exists. But as long as there are Minmatar who see it as their purpose to annihilate the Empire and the Amarr, there will be no peaceful solution. So, while I agree that we Amarr have our part to play - and I see that there's much going on with the reforms of slavery law since Heideran - I think that the Rpublic and their Elder allies still have a long way to go, if a peaceful solution is the goal.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:10:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Honestly, that they were overcome by the Empire is more than enough evidence in the eyes of the Empire's doctrine that they were in need of a guiding hand.



So for you, military prowess is the only valid measurement of the civility or primitiveness of a culture?

Quote:
Also, there will be no abolition of slavery in the Empire.
[...]
But as long as there are Minmatar who see it as their purpose to annihilate the Empire and the Amarr, there will be no peaceful solution.


You see, I think these two statements are pretty much the basic problem. As long as the Amarr aren't releasing the Minmatar they have enslaved, I do not see the latter of your two statements changing. As you say the former won't change, we're at a deadlock.

The abolitionists are pretty much the only ones right now who are trying to break out of this cycle. Good luck to them.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:26:00 - [80]
 

First, my apologies for posting before reading and taking note of your reply. I was already working on the third part of my reply, and the system doesn't give you due notice in case someone posted whily you were writing. - I'll come to your most recent post in due time.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
You are indeed right, and I am sorry for the accusation.

The point I was (unsuccessfully) trying to make is the combination of "you can be as you wish to be, except you can not wish to be that here." Simply quoting half of this statement would be misrepresenting my position.

Well, in that case I of course have to concede that your corrected version there is less colourful and more factual. Also, I of course accept your apology.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Oh, but I do agree with this [exile is no right to freedom], you know. As I mentioned.

I noticed you mentioned how bad it is for Matari to be exiled. All the more stark seemed to me the contrast in the statement you clarified now.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Slavery (my main example of Amarrian's forced inclusion, by the way, not Vak'atioth) is not nice, either, for similar reasons.

Well, my main point there was that there's a difference between getting exiled for getting the wrong mark and getting enslaved for the reasons you normally get enslaved for - even if you get enslaved for crimes e.g. your parents committed. The idea is that the environment is responsible for the actions of the individual (especially the close environment, as family is) - a thought Matari should be able to appreciate in principle at last - or have been under the bad influence of the perpetrator and thus are in need of correction (that's why children are sentenced to slavery as well, even if they had no way to stop their parents form committing a crime). And that is nowadays the main source of 1st generation slaves in the Empire and is at the core of the tradition.
That the loosing side of a war (even an en needs a 'helping hand' happens to be a natural extension of that. Slavery has never been about race - even though it was instrumentalised for that, as I have to concede.
As I don't see any evidence that the future of a young woman is predestined or revealed by some tattooing process, I can't bring myself to see that as a reason of the quality that the usual (legal!) reasons for slavery have.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The preference for one over the other is a cultural difference, and in my opinion a very important one. Difference, meaning, it's "different", not necessarily (objectively) "better" or "worse".

I agree, in those general terms. Still I think any of these 'types of punishment' would be justifiable in the case of someone just happening to get a 'bad mark'.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The Amarr regularly try to eradicate greater parts of other cultures. Eradicate, as in "remove from history", not just "stop the practice" - despite claims to the contrary, this is what the Amarr tried to with e.g. tattooing. They later then claim that these cultures were "primitive", which is difficult to argue for (or against) because the term is not well-defined and the lack of uncolored information about the original culture. Hence it's difficult to argue whether slavery actually "improves" any of the subjugated cultures. (This was the "side-track" about the Ni-Kunni.)

While I have to concede that point, I'd claim it's just the case of "history is written by the victor". If I'm right, it's not a special habit of the Amarr, but merely a byproduct of the Amarr Empire being perpetually on the winning side for a very, very long time.

(contd.)

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:45:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Well, my main point there was that there's a difference between getting exiled for getting the wrong mark and getting enslaved for the reasons you normally get enslaved for - even if you get enslaved for crimes e.g. your parents committed.


I think you misunderstand me.

I was not kidding when I said that I do not care about the Amarr enslaving each other. Nor do I consider slavery "objectively evil". Try to humor me for a second and actually believe me.

My issue with the Amarr is not that your culture endorses slavery. That's an interesting sobject of scientific study (sociology, one of my pet topics), especially as to how the Amarr use that method in contrast to e.g. exile in the Minmatar culture, or the focus on tolerance in the Gallente culture. They all have advantages and disadvantages. (I am woefully underinformed about the Caldari culture, something I will have to fix eventually)

So, no, I am not arguing that slavery is bad.

If the Amarr had kept to themselves and enslaved each other, I couldn't care less. The problem is that the Amarr did not stick to themselves, they came to the Minmatar. This is a crime, and a crime's damage needs to be repaied. I do not see this repairment happening any other way than them to be released (over time). Once the crime is repaired, I couldn't care less what the Amarr do.

And the only Amarr who seem to be interested in providing such repairs are the abolitionists.


(One problem of course is that this is my personal opinion. Quite a few outspoken Minmatar disagree with me - you won't be able to convince them by talking to me, though. Also, I am loyal to the Republic, so for actual negotiations for surrender, the Empire will have to address the Republic government.)

Quote:
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The preference for one over the other is a cultural difference, and in my opinion a very important one. Difference, meaning, it's "different", not necessarily (objectively) "better" or "worse".

I agree, in those general terms. Still I think any of these 'types of punishment' would be justifiable in the case of someone just happening to get a 'bad mark'.


I can only repeat that I am not defending the practice. But - and here the Minmatar shows - I respect the autonomy of the clans. They have the full right to the practice as far as I am concerned. (As long as they keep to themselves with it, of course.)

So, what exactly are you trying to convince me of?

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:54:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Once this argument is shown as faulty, the arguments against abolition then become somewhat thin.

That's not true and I think this premise rests on a (probably understandable) misconception of what slavery is. As I already said, slave raids outside the Empire are, nowadays, illegal. There is no need for any outside influx of slaves to continue the system of slavery, as it is not mainly about elevating other races - even though it might seem like that from an outsiders perspective.
It's about elevating humans. That might include other races, but it doesn't have to, by necessity.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Slavery has created an environment where large parts of the cluster actively despise the Amarrian god and are actively fighting against the Amarr. [...]

This seems quite unsuccessful. Considering changing an approach which seems to not work sounds sensible.

Well, if you're for changes in the approach, I'm all with you and I'd argue, we Amarr are at it (though, I agree we're not very fast about it - we never have been fast with changes and in the long run that served us well). Changing to another approach, though, if you talk about that - which would be abolition of slavery in general, I'm not with you.
And I don't think that the institution of slavery created that atmosphere you're speaking of. It's been created by those abusing that institution.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Honestly, that they were overcome by the Empire is more than enough evidence in the eyes of the Empire's doctrine that they were in need of a guiding hand.



So for you, military prowess is the only valid measurement of the civility or primitiveness of a culture?

Well, did I write that for me the only valid measurement is military prowess? Nah, even though, being a Sarumite soldier I probably hold military prowess in high esteem. I wrote "in the eyes of the Empire's doctrine" and I can differ from that doctrine. Is it the only valid measurement in the Epire's doctrine's eyes? Nah, I don't think so. But it's the measurement that's been applicated in those instances.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Quote:
Also, there will be no abolition of slavery in the Empire.
[...]
But as long as there are Minmatar who see it as their purpose to annihilate the Empire and the Amarr, there will be no peaceful solution.


You see, I think these two statements are pretty much the basic problem. As long as the Amarr aren't releasing the Minmatar they have enslaved, I do not see the latter of your two statements changing. As you say the former won't change, we're at a deadlock.

I don't say the former won't change - read carefully: No abolition of slavery doesn't mean that there's no way the Minmatar won't be released. One could, for example release all Minmatar from slavery. Though I don't think that's a good idea, it might be a compromise that can be reached. (I'd personally prefer the release of all generational slaves and those 1st generation slaves that have been captured in slave raids outside the Empire, when it still was legal to do so. I don't have to mention that slaves that are kept illegally by Empire laws should be freed as well, of course? Of course that'd mean that Amarr citizens of Matari descent, that have been sentenced to penal slavery would remain in bondage in the Empire. I think though, that's not unreasonable. All this wouldn't be done over night, it'd need naturally a few decades of time.)

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The abolitionists are pretty much the only ones right now who are trying to break out of this cycle. Good luck to them.

That's simply not true: There are reformists like me, who're working towards a reform of slavery, that'd allow for a peaceful solution to the Amarr-Minmatar war.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 22:13:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
My issue with the Amarr is not that your culture endorses slavery. That's an interesting sobject of scientific study (sociology, one of my pet topics), especially as to how the Amarr use that method in contrast to e.g. exile in the Minmatar culture, or the focus on tolerance in the Gallente culture. They all have advantages and disadvantages. (I am woefully underinformed about the Caldari culture, something I will have to fix eventually)

So, no, I am not arguing that slavery is bad.

If the Amarr had kept to themselves and enslaved each other, I couldn't care less. The problem is that the Amarr did not stick to themselves, they came to the Minmatar. This is a crime, and a crime's damage needs to be repaied. I do not see this repairment happening any other way than them to be released (over time). Once the crime is repaired, I couldn't care less what the Amarr do.

Well, from where I stand it's war. Though I'd have to agree that given the course of events, making reparations would be a great option for Amarr. (And probably not in the form of ISK - this, as we have seen, doesn't repair anything, but might again be used for building invasion fleets. - The execution of which was formidable and I truly respect the Elders for their attempt there.)

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
And the only Amarr who seem to be interested in providing such repairs are the abolitionists.

As I said above: I don't think that is true. There are the reformist and I belive they're a safer bet for you and anyone else. The abolitionists merely pour oil into the flames of those Amarr who're really not interested in a peaceful solution.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
(One problem of course is that this is my personal opinion. Quite a few outspoken Minmatar disagree with me - you won't be able to convince them by talking to me, though. Also, I am loyal to the Republic, so for actual negotiations for surrender, the Empire will have to address the Republic government.)

I didn't think you'd suggest that the Republic would actually surrender! Joking aside: There are other ways to end a war than one side surrendering or being annihilated.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I can only repeat that I am not defending the practice. But - and here the Minmatar shows - I respect the autonomy of the clans. They have the full right to the practice as far as I am concerned. (As long as they keep to themselves with it, of course.)

See and I as Amarr respect the sovereign rights of the Republic to handle their internal matters as they see fit.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
So, what exactly are you trying to convince me of?

Theat you're betting on the dead-born horse with the abolitionists. I also try to make you aware that you have a better option with the 'reformists' available.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.08 23:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
As I already said, slave raids outside the Empire are, nowadays, illegal.


This is a recurring statement. The situation we have to deal with in the Republic is a constant stream of slave raids into our space by task groups that look a lot like Amarr navy ships. You will understand that, for someone having to deal with such incursions regularly, the claims that they are illegal sound somewhat hollow. Even if they are meant as is.

I think one thing the Amarr can work towards that would lessen tensions a lot would be the reduction of those incursions. Though with the war as it is right now, I don't think there is great interest in that.

Quote:
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
So, what exactly are you trying to convince me of?

Theat you're betting on the dead-born horse with the abolitionists. I also try to make you aware that you have a better option with the 'reformists' available.


I am looking forward to whatever solution you will come up with. I'm not holding my breath, though.

And I wouldn't quite call the abolitionists a "dead-born horse". They seem to be gaining supporters continuously. I give them more chances at the moment to actually achieve something that would solve the issues than I would give someone who tries to adjust slavery to a way that would satisfy most Minmatar.

Of course, with war at hand, we might end up with one of our empires destroyed before either of those groups achieve their goal.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.08 23:59:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
This is a recurring statement. The situation [...] You will understand that, for someone having to deal with such incursions regularly, the claims that they are illegal sound somewhat hollow. Even if they are meant as is.

I do understand. The hands of the Empire are somewhat tied in that regard though, as they commit their crimes outside of Amarrian jurisdiction. Luckily, we capsuleers aren't tied by that and I even helped the Republic authorities in some of these cases, before the war started.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I think one thing the Amarr can work towards that would lessen tensions a lot would be the reduction of those incursions. Though with the war as it is right now, I don't think there is great interest in that.

I agree. And indeed, adding to the reason stated above, there's the fact that we're at war at the moment.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I am looking forward to whatever solution you will come up with. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Don't stop breathing: It's not healthy after prolonged periods of time. And - as I indicated above - reform will take time, we'll need quite some breath.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
And I wouldn't quite call the abolitionists a "dead-born horse". They seem to be gaining supporters continuously. I give them more chances at the moment to actually achieve something that would solve the issues than I would give someone who tries to adjust slavery to a way that would satisfy most Minmatar.

How many abolitionists have spoken up in here? Abolitionists are few in the Empire and they've little support in the Empire. Most aren't of nobility - those that are lost their influence or operate in secret. The base of the abolitionists is, if anywhere, outside of the Empire. But you won't change the Empire outside of the Empire.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Of course, with war at hand, we might end up with one of our empires destroyed before either of those groups achieve their goal.

Not improbable. It might also destroy both empires. Those kind of outcome would I hold to be unfortunate, though.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.09 09:07:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The situation we have to deal with in the Republic is a constant stream of slave raids into our space by task groups that look a lot like Amarr navy ships. You will understand that, for someone having to deal with such incursions regularly, the claims that they are illegal sound somewhat hollow. Even if they are meant as is.


And what about the constant raids into Amarrian space by Republic vessels?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.09 09:29:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 09/09/2011 09:29:50
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The situation we have to deal with in the Republic is a constant stream of slave raids into our space by task groups that look a lot like Amarr navy ships. You will understand that, for someone having to deal with such incursions regularly, the claims that they are illegal sound somewhat hollow. Even if they are meant as is.


And what about the constant raids into Amarrian space by Republic vessels?


Uh. Yes, what about them? I think you missed my point. I am not saying that the Amarr are doing something surprising by doing those raids, or that all would be good if they just stopped those raids.

I told an Amarrian that their assertions of it being illegal to take slaves outside of the Empire sounds somewhat hollow considering how often it happens.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.09 10:15:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 09/09/2011 09:29:50
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The situation we have to deal with in the Republic is a constant stream of slave raids into our space by task groups that look a lot like Amarr navy ships. You will understand that, for someone having to deal with such incursions regularly, the claims that they are illegal sound somewhat hollow. Even if they are meant as is.


And what about the constant raids into Amarrian space by Republic vessels?


Uh. Yes, what about them? I think you missed my point. I am not saying that the Amarr are doing something surprising by doing those raids, or that all would be good if they just stopped those raids.

I told an Amarrian that their assertions of it being illegal to take slaves outside of the Empire sounds somewhat hollow considering how often it happens.



Don't you think that you should put your own house in order before complaining about someone else's?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.09 11:15:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Don't you think that you should put your own house in order before complaining about someone else's?


But I am not complaining about the Amarrians being unable or unwilling to enforce their own laws. I am saying that I find it difficult to accept an unenforced law as an argument for the goodwill of the Empire.

I understand that you have not used this law as such an argument, but Ms. Mithra and others have. Seeing you informing me that we have no right to expect this law to have any relevance until we do the first step simply means that we agree: The law is a hollow gesture.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.09 11:36:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Don't you think that you should put your own house in order before complaining about someone else's?


But I am not complaining about the Amarrians being unable or unwilling to enforce their own laws. I am saying that I find it difficult to accept an unenforced law as an argument for the goodwill of the Empire.

I understand that you have not used this law as such an argument, but Ms. Mithra and others have. Seeing you informing me that we have no right to expect this law to have any relevance until we do the first step simply means that we agree: The law is a hollow gesture.



If you think that a law has been broken, feel free to report it to the appropriate authorities.

However, I suspect that any such report would probably be taken more seriously were you not from an alliance with a history of conducting piracy within Imperial borders.


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