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Raphael Saint
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:42:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:44:11
Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:43:39
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Misguided and easily refuted statements.


Honestly, Farel, it's as if you want me to have a lovely imprint of my face on my desk.

In the spirit "new" versus "New," (which, like Admiral Blake, I will assume you can discern) you do know that the Empress also launched the 24th Imperial Crusade, do you not? I can assure you that it was a "new Reclaiming," or else it would've been the 23rd. So that there isn't any question, let me place the public description for the 24IC organization here.

Quote:
It was us who brought civilization to this dark and perilous world, and it is us who uphold it, with compassion, strength and courage. We need you to help us save the Minmatar from themselves. We will help the lost ones find their way, capsuleer, and we will do it with the deathless force only you can wield.


Now, in regards to a "New Reclaiming," (and this part is also for Momaki and the increasingly irksome Sadki) the Empress did indeed deliver that line and then emancipated some slaves. A rather large group, too. But was it all of them? No, it was not. Those who continue to hold slaves, so long as they are not of those freed, are in fact still loyal. When it comes time to free those slaves (if it comes), then the Empress will instruct us. Any earlier than that is up to the individual holder. Any "New Recliming" (which you will notice was never said by the Empress) will proceed at the Empress's pace and by her command - not by a few capsuleers who think they can shout the loudest.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.03 09:57:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/09/2011 10:00:27
Originally by: Raphael Saint
Now, in regards to a "New Reclaiming," (and this part is also for Momaki and the increasingly irksome Sadki) the Empress did indeed deliver that line and then emancipated some slaves. A rather large group, too.


Thank you for the compliment.

Actually, I thought the emancipation act was a beautiful move of Ms. Sarum. Freeing the oldest generations meant freeing those most affected by imperial indoctrination, while at the same time putting the Republic under quite some pressure with an increased influx of people to take care of, quite a few of who brought the imperial faith to the Republic. Smart move, well executed.

Luckily, it did not work out quite as well as expected. It seems we're doing quite well coping with the influx (and this is with my apologies to those still in sub-par accomodations, we are working on it), so that the economic damage seems quite comparable to that done to the Empire. Also, there have been fewer of them that kept loyal to the Empire and its faith than Ms. Sarum apparently hoped. The Minmatar spirit is not easily dominated.

It should be obvious by now even to the most stubborn believer that your old ways of furthering your God's will are not working all that well anymore. The problem of course is that the Empire is not simply using slavery for education - your whole economy is based on cheap labor. You will need decades if not centuries to modernize your society to be able to do without them. Until then, your leaders won't be able to admit to your people that they were lied to, that slavery is by far one of the worst methods for spreading the word of your God, and that it was used primarily for economic reasons, not for faith.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.03 13:38:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik


Luckily, it did not work out quite as well as expected. It seems we're doing quite well coping with the influx (and this is with my apologies to those still in sub-par accomodations, we are working on it), so that the economic damage seems quite comparable to that done to the Empire. Also, there have been fewer of them that kept loyal to the Empire and its faith than Ms. Sarum apparently hoped. The Minmatar spirit is not easily dominated.


Two things.

Firstly, not all freed Minmatar went to your Republic. A lot of those who remain loyal to the Empire are still in the Empire.

Secondly, of course there won't be many emancipated Minmatar who are openly loyal to the Empire in the Republic - they've seen what happened to Abel Jarek.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.03 14:40:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/09/2011 22:10:26
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Firstly, not all freed Minmatar went to your Republic. A lot of those who remain loyal to the Empire are still in the Empire.


Yes. I don't think I claimed otherwise?

Quote:
Secondly, of course there won't be many emancipated Minmatar who are openly loyal to the Empire in the Republic - they've seen what happened to Abel Jarek.


Well, there is not much use for Empire loyalists to be in the Republic if they are not out incite civil unrest. Glad you admit that intention of Jarek's personal little crusade.

Jarek was a naive idiot who ignored every security advice he got and proved in the end that if you just put enough effort into doing stupid things, neither the Republic nor the Amarrian God can safe you. At least the Republic tried to help him - in the Empire, a similar death would have had the support of the law.

(IGS-mandated addendum: The above does not claim that Jarek's death was "good", "right" or "proper", merely that it was "not surprising". If you, the current reader, thought I was saying that it was "good", "right" or "proper", you have a tendency to read what you want to read instead of what is written. Try to work on that.)

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:49:00 - [35]
 

Sadik, I wasn't suggesting that anyone's intention was to create civil unrest.

Perhaps if you thought otherwise it was because you were ignoring your own advice and reading what you wanted to read instead of what was written.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.03 22:02:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Sadik, I wasn't suggesting that anyone's intention was to create civil unrest.

Perhaps if you thought otherwise it was because you were ignoring your own advice and reading what you wanted to read instead of what was written.


*Arkady Sadik laughs*

Touché, admiral, touché.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.09.03 22:12:00 - [37]
 

At the end of the day, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the Amarr hadn't decided to adopt slavery in the first place. They adopted slavery out of theology. Any faith can, in principle, be incorrect (for who knows the full mind and will of God? If any claim such a thing, they're wrong). And so we should not base our actions on faith alone, but also factor in ethics and logic.

We were given brains. Use them. Support freedom.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.03 23:13:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Raphael Saint
Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:44:11
Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:43:39
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Misguided and easily refuted statements.


Honestly, Farel, it's as if you want me to have a lovely imprint of my face on my desk.

In the spirit "new" versus "New," (which, like Admiral Blake, I will assume you can discern) you do know that the Empress also launched the 24th Imperial Crusade, do you not? I can assure you that it was a "new Reclaiming," or else it would've been the 23rd. So that there isn't any question, let me place the public description for the 24IC organization here.

Quote:
It was us who brought civilization to this dark and perilous world, and it is us who uphold it, with compassion, strength and courage. We need you to help us save the Minmatar from themselves. We will help the lost ones find their way, capsuleer, and we will do it with the deathless force only you can wield.


Now, in regards to a "New Reclaiming," (and this part is also for Momaki and the increasingly irksome Sadki) the Empress did indeed deliver that line and then emancipated some slaves. A rather large group, too. But was it all of them? No, it was not. Those who continue to hold slaves, so long as they are not of those freed, are in fact still loyal. When it comes time to free those slaves (if it comes), then the Empress will instruct us. Any earlier than that is up to the individual holder. Any "New Recliming" (which you will notice was never said by the Empress) will proceed at the Empress's pace and by her command - not by a few capsuleers who think they can shout the loudest.


Misguided and easily refuted statements (of mine) is a false statement (of yours) in itself. Nothing has been demonstrated as misguided nor has been easily refuted yet.

The comparison between "new" and "New", even if worth of consideration, can also be understood differently. You and Admiral Blake are playing on words with a little too much certainty. A "New Reclaiming" can indeed refer to something brand new. It can also be a capitalized name, maybe refering to an exact copy of it, or even meaning something else. A "new Reclaiming" (the transcript of the Empress words), obviously refers to a "conventional" Reclaiming in the orthodox comprehension. But can you assure me that a new version of something is an exact copy of it ? Sometimes yes, sometimes... not really (much as you said, or it would have indeed been a 23rd IIth version). I consider this argument mainly irrelevant put in that light.

That way, as expressed in my last post, I did not get into consideration the interpretation that Mr Blake exposed, and I understood it after he explained that said interpretation. Unless it was obvious, I was indeed surprised and found that interpretation interesting, and valid. However, this does not mean that mine is not.

Concerning the second part of your message, I never said the contrary.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Jarek was a naive idiot who ignored every security advice he got and proved in the end that if you just put enough effort into doing stupid things, neither the Republic nor the Amarrian God can safe you.



Oh, yes, maybe he was a fool, or maybe not, but this was definitly revealing of something.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.04 00:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
At the end of the day, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the Amarr hadn't decided to adopt slavery in the first place. They adopted slavery out of theology. Any faith can, in principle, be incorrect (for who knows the full mind and will of God? If any claim such a thing, they're wrong). And so we should not base our actions on faith alone, but also factor in ethics and logic.

We were given brains. Use them. Support freedom.


Well, you're seemingly operating on the assumption that if one uses his brain, one is necessarily against slavery. Thing is, this assumption is flawed.

There aren't only theological reasons for slavery: There are as well ethical, legal, social and other reasons. Then, logic can't give you reasons. Logic is merely a tool to test arguments for their validity.

Also, ethics and logics aren't in principle free of errors as well.

So, Cpt. Jaiga, truth is, it doesn't follow from using your brain that one will necessarily support freedom and abolition of slavery, especially as one doesn't equal the other. It's really an old move to paint everyone who doesn't agree as being 'those that don't use their brains' - it's not gotten any more valid with time, though.

Cpt. Sadik: I think you should be made aware that, generally, slavery is economically less favorable if you embrace a 'free economy' as the Gallenteans and the Matari do: Free economy is free of minimum wages, for a reason and the Republic is no stranger to 'cheap labor'.

So, economically speaking there are strong reasons for the abolition of slavery. Luckily, material wealth isn't what drives the Empire, though.

One more thing: Why did the Elder fleet use Insorum on Mekhios, for example? Well, certainly not to free their brethren that were afflicted by Vitoxin: As much as I regret that this move was taken, the slaves that were addicted to Vitoc had been all in all executed when the Elder's troops arrived.
Why then still use the Insorum? Well, simply because it is a quite formidable weapon as well: It kills those not afflicted by Vitoxin. So, while I luckily had not to kill my slaves, as I never made use of the Vitoc method for the ethical reasons, I had to get them into safety from the Insorum bombardment, which allegedly was meant to 'free' them...
I better don't say more about that.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.09.04 01:20:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra


<Things Rek would generally agree with as far as principle is concerned, and thus have omitted in this quotation-reply>

It's really an old move to paint everyone who doesn't agree as being 'those that don't use their brains'




Oh no, you caught me red-handed.

I am curious, however, as to your claims about there being non-theological reasons for practicing slavery. You're saying that stripped of the theological premises for slavery, the practice would still stand on economic, social, and ethical principles?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.04 08:59:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
At the end of the day, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the Amarr hadn't decided to adopt slavery in the first place. They adopted slavery out of theology. Any faith can, in principle, be incorrect (for who knows the full mind and will of God? If any claim such a thing, they're wrong). And so we should not base our actions on faith alone, but also factor in ethics and logic.

We were given brains. Use them. Support freedom.


You may consider faith to be falible, but I know that things will work out for the best if you have faith in God.

Not only that, but the use of slavery to enhance morally inferior bloodlines is entirely logical and ethical.

Tiara Sikai
Posted - 2011.09.04 09:29:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: ValentinaDLM
While I could care less about slavery in general (this may come as a surprise to some). I do see a very real danger in letting people who may not be loyal go unsupervised. Perhaps some sort of probationary period, where they are monitored is in order, lest we have more Republic spies than we already do in the Empire's space. Freed slaves seem to be a fertile recruiting ground for such people.


I agree that we could, should and would not go from full control and supervision to Gallante-style anarchy. Of course the former slaves would need to be supervised to a much stronger degree than (say) Ni-Kunni and other long-term citizens. But let's not delude ourselves. Minmatar "Liberation rethoric" finds much more fertile ground when they can paint themselves as the liberators rather than the unwashed masses they are.


Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:02:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

You may consider faith to be falible, but I know that things will work out for the best if you have faith in God.

Not only that, but the use of slavery to enhance morally inferior bloodlines is entirely logical and ethical.


The assumption that all non Amarrians are "morally inferior bloodlines" rests entirely on your interpretation of Scripture. Faith being fallible, this is also a fallible assumption, and thus should not be used to answer questions like "Hm, should we enslave a few trillion people today?" or "Should we attack these people, right here and now?". It is not logical or ethical reasoning. It is faith-based reasoning and you should recognize how dangerous that is.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:54:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Rek Jaiga
At the end of the day, this discussion wouldn't be happening if the Amarr hadn't decided to adopt slavery in the first place. They adopted slavery out of theology. Any faith can, in principle, be incorrect (for who knows the full mind and will of God? If any claim such a thing, they're wrong). And so we should not base our actions on faith alone, but also factor in ethics and logic.

We were given brains. Use them. Support freedom.


You may consider faith to be falible, but I know that things will work out for the best if you have faith in God.

Not only that, but the use of slavery to enhance morally inferior bloodlines is entirely logical and ethical.


Your argument: I can enslave you because I'm better than you and God loves me more than you. Also, the source of this information is me and me alone. This is somehow logical and ethical. Any questions?


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:54:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Originally by: Rodj Blake

You may consider faith to be falible, but I know that things will work out for the best if you have faith in God.

Not only that, but the use of slavery to enhance morally inferior bloodlines is entirely logical and ethical.


The assumption that all non Amarrians are "morally inferior bloodlines" rests entirely on your interpretation of Scripture. Faith being fallible, this is also a fallible assumption, and thus should not be used to answer questions like "Hm, should we enslave a few trillion people today?" or "Should we attack these people, right here and now?". It is not logical or ethical reasoning. It is faith-based reasoning and you should recognize how dangerous that is.


Just because you can't understand the morality or the logic behind something doesn't mean that there is no logic or morality involved. And no, the assumption doesn't simply rest upon Scripture. It also rests upon millenia of experience. Slavery works.

The fact that you're unable to understand the benefits of slavery simply serves to underline your inferiority.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.04 16:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Originally by: Rodj Blake

You may consider faith to be falible, but I know that things will work out for the best if you have faith in God.

Not only that, but the use of slavery to enhance morally inferior bloodlines is entirely logical and ethical.


The assumption that all non Amarrians are "morally inferior bloodlines" rests entirely on your interpretation of Scripture. Faith being fallible, this is also a fallible assumption, and thus should not be used to answer questions like "Hm, should we enslave a few trillion people today?" or "Should we attack these people, right here and now?". It is not logical or ethical reasoning. It is faith-based reasoning and you should recognize how dangerous that is.


Just because you can't understand the morality or the logic behind something doesn't mean that there is no logic or morality involved. And no, the assumption doesn't simply rest upon Scripture. It also rests upon millenia of experience. Slavery works.

The fact that you're unable to understand the benefits of slavery simply serves to underline your inferiority.


You are starting to border 'might makes right' theory, which may I add, is not only not moral or ethical at all, it happens to be the belief system of various timeless enemies and heretics of the Empire. I would seriously consider taking a second thought on whether you want to go down that road.


Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.09.04 16:46:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Slavery works.


Right, until you've got the Joves whipping your fleet with a handful of frigates, and a Republic bearing down on you ready to tear into your flesh. Your collective hubris has lead to anger and fury that will kill you. Betcha didn't see that one coming, huh?

Originally by: Rodj Blake

The fact that you're unable to understand the benefits of slavery simply serves to underline your inferiority.


"You are inferior because I say so. And the fact that you disagree with this proves you are inferior! Hah, I win!". Nice reasoning there.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:15:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Slavery works.


Right, until you've got the Joves whipping your fleet with a handful of frigates, and a Republic bearing down on you ready to tear into your flesh. Your collective hubris has lead to anger and fury that will kill you. Betcha didn't see that one coming, huh?


You know full well both that the Jovians had more than a hanful of frigates at Vak-Atioth and that it was only a modest Amarrian fleet.

But that's irrelevant. Slavery does work. The Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up. And then there are the Udorians. Once they were slaves, and now one of them is an heir to the Imperial Throne.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:18:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente

You are starting to border 'might makes right' theory, which may I add, is not only not moral or ethical at all, it happens to be the belief system of various timeless enemies and heretics of the Empire. I would seriously consider taking a second thought on whether you want to go down that road.




You fail to see the deeper impact of my words, but if you really want to sum things up in a soundbite then its not so much "might makes right" as "righteousness makes one mighty."

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:22:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Originally by: Rek Jaiga



Well, you're seemingly operating on the assumption that if one uses his brain, one is necessarily against slavery. Thing is, this assumption is flawed.

There aren't only theological reasons for slavery: There are as well ethical, legal, social and other reasons. Then, logic can't give you reasons. Logic is merely a tool to test arguments for their validity.

Also, ethics and logics aren't in principle free of errors as well.

So, Cpt. Jaiga, truth is, it doesn't follow from using your brain that one will necessarily support freedom and abolition of slavery, especially as one doesn't equal the other. It's really an old move to paint everyone who doesn't agree as being 'those that don't use their brains' - it's not gotten any more valid with time, though.

Cpt. Sadik: I think you should be made aware that, generally, slavery is economically less favorable if you embrace a 'free economy' as the Gallenteans and the Matari do: Free economy is free of minimum wages, for a reason and the Republic is no stranger to 'cheap labor'.

So, economically speaking there are strong reasons for the abolition of slavery. Luckily, material wealth isn't what drives the Empire, though.

One more thing: Why did the Elder fleet use Insorum on Mekhios, for example? Well, certainly not to free their brethren that were afflicted by Vitoxin: As much as I regret that this move was taken, the slaves that were addicted to Vitoc had been all in all executed when the Elder's troops arrived.
Why then still use the Insorum? Well, simply because it is a quite formidable weapon as well: It kills those not afflicted by Vitoxin. So, while I luckily had not to kill my slaves, as I never made use of the Vitoc method for the ethical reasons, I had to get them into safety from the Insorum bombardment, which allegedly was meant to 'free' them...
I better don't say more about that.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra


Ugh, please, another holier than thou "Vitoc too good for me" Holder. As much as you dont want to believe it, Vitoc is still method no.1 for slave control. Of the hundreds of thousands of Holders on Mehkios, there is likely little over a few hundred who wont use Vitoc. Even fewer who think it is unethical.

But the fact that you seem to think that the Elder fleet was somehow the bloodthirsty party of murderes perplexes me. After all, as you said, was it not the cowards of Mehkios who lynched their slaves in fear of an uprising?

I mean you display remarkably little grasp of the situation as it was, even with all the evidence available before you. The ivasion of the Empire way over the course of a day. The first issue with your insinuations is how the hell a message is supposed to reach the Elder Fleet command all the way from Mehkios on the other side of the front line? Second, when they got to Mehkios, were they supposed to just abbandon the people who were left alive? Is that how the Amarr do things? I mean did you honestly expect the Elder fleet to just sit over Mehkios and ponder the situation first? For all the advances in scanning technology, no ship can just casually scan a planet for sudden population changes. In almost all instances, the Elder forces' actions were excusively directed towards military targets and slave holding installations. Your also forgetting the amount of Insorum needed to kill someone vs the amount needed to cure Vitoc. Granted, any exposure is not healthy, but there was nowhere near enough Insorum to poison a whole planet.

I do regret that deaths were inflicted, but anyone who says they dont kill for a worthy reason is a damn liar. Especially if they're a capsuleer.

The reason was Liberation. Liberation from those many thousands who deign to use Vitoc in the first place, and of course all the other indignities and cruelties the Matari have suffered under the boot of Amarr

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:43:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

You know full well both that the Jovians had more than a hanful of frigates at Vak-Atioth and that it was only a modest Amarrian fleet.

But that's irrelevant. Slavery does work. The Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up. And then there are the Udorians. Once they were slaves, and now one of them is an heir to the Imperial Throne.



Yes, I am aware of the military history of Vak-Atioth. But what I'm trying to say is the Empire has gotten itself into some deep crap trying to enslave others.

Slavery only works in wiping out a culture and replacing it with your own. You say "Our way of life is superior. And look! We have made others superior by making htem like us!". And yet, you've no basis for claiming your culture as superior (hell, asserting that one culture is better than another may be moot anyway).

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:02:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
The Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up.


The research on the culture of the Ni-Kunni before the Amarr destroyed it is only in its infancy, but already quite interesting.

Considering how the Amarr talk about the Minmtar culture before they deprived us of our freedom, I fully expect the Ni-Kunni to turn out to be a spacefaring civilization with advanced knowledge that the Amarr felt threatened by and exterminated out of xenophobia.

But who knows, the Amarr are sadly very efficient at eradicting foreign cultures.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:08:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Ugh, please, another holier than thou "Vitoc too good for me" Holder.

And there one would think you should be happy if Vitoxin isn't used.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
As much as you dont want to believe it, Vitoc is still method no.1 for slave control. Of the hundreds of thousands of Holders on Mehkios, there is likely little over a few hundred who wont use Vitoc.

That's merely a claim and that claim isn't backed up at all by sources or facts, Cpt. Makari.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Even fewer who think it is unethical.

With that I agree. Still it's not as many using it as you want to believe. Especailly since the rise of Insorum it's less and less used. The main use of Vitoc is for slaves who need to be controlled really tightly, for example on spaceships. Mekhios is a planet. I hope you see the difference.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
But the fact that you seem to think that the Elder fleet was somehow the bloodthirsty party of murderes perplexes me.

You're a telepath? Why then do you fail to read my mind? Or did you simply misread what I wrote? They weren't bloodthirsty murderers, they were heading out with the goal to topple the Amarrian Empire. Against what you want to believe it wasn't a humanitarian mission.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
After all, as you said, was it not the cowards of Mehkios who lynched their slaves in fear of an uprising?

Cowards? You've quite a skewed view of war, it seems. But then, maybe you're really convinced that the Elders were on a humanitarian mission? Really, in those cases it's nothing to do with cowardice. It's just part of the strategy to win the battle.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
I mean you display remarkably little grasp of the situation as it was, even with all the evidence available before you. The ivasion of the Empire way over the course of a day. The first issue with your insinuations is how the hell a message is supposed to reach the Elder Fleet command all the way from Mehkios on the other side of the front line?

There were (independent) real-time reports from Mekhios taking place.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Second, when they got to Mehkios, were they supposed to just abbandon the people who were left alive?

Don't say that. Still, bombing them with Insoum doesn't help them either, no? My point is, the slaves on Mekhios probably weren't why the Elders attacked there.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Is that how the Amarr do things? I mean did you honestly expect the Elder fleet to just sit over Mehkios and ponder the situation first?

In fact, yes, we Amarr tend to think before we act. I thought Matari are capable of that as well. But if you insist, I grant you that you're not.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
For all the advances in scanning technology, ...

Reports again?

Originally by: N'maro Makari
In almost all instances, the Elder forces' actions were excusively directed towards military targets and slave holding installations.

Ah-huh? You've been there?

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Your also forgetting the amount of Insorum needed to kill someone vs the amount needed to cure Vitoc. Granted, any exposure is not healthy, but there was nowhere near enough Insorum to poison a whole planet.

Insorum is, indeed "an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health." It kills slowly, but believe me, that doesn't make it any less abhorrent. Believe what you want, but there was no other use for Insorum than the one as weapon once the Vitoxin-afflicted were dead.


Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari
I do regret that deaths were inflicted, but anyone who says they dont kill for a worthy reason is a damn liar. Especially if they're a capsuleer.

Of course I'd kill for a worthy reason. I even respect the reasons of the Elders. It's just not the case that they invaded Mekhios to free slaves. (though there were lots hold in bondage back then on Mekhios.)

Originally by: N'maro Makari
The reason was Liberation. Liberation from those many thousands who deign to use Vitoc in the first place, and of course all the other indignities and cruelties the Matari have suffered under the boot of Amarr

Only those weak of mind buy into that propaganda. Truth is, the Sarum Prime system is of great strategical importance if you want to topple the Empire, because it's home of the most belligerent of the Empire's lines. It's kind of the shield of the Empire. That's why they were there, don't let us delude ourselves into something else.

So, lets call trying to defeat an enemy just that and reserve the word liberation for those real liberations, okay?

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:29:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 05/09/2011 12:29:16
Originally by: Rodj Blake

Just because you can't understand the morality or the logic behind something doesn't mean that there is no logic or morality involved. And no, the assumption doesn't simply rest upon Scripture. It also rests upon millenia of experience. Slavery works.

The fact that you're unable to understand the benefits of slavery simply serves to underline your inferiority.


There is no logical link between the fact that slavery works and the fact that Amarr bloodlines are morally superior.

Originally by: N'maro Makari


Ugh, please, another holier than thou "Vitoc too good for me" Holder. As much as you dont want to believe it, Vitoc is still method no.1 for slave control. Of the hundreds of thousands of Holders on Mehkios, there is likely little over a few hundred who wont use Vitoc. Even fewer who think it is unethical.


Do you have sources for this ? I would be interested to get some for a change. And not biased sources, probably more CONCORD or even SOE sources.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
But the fact that you seem to think that the Elder fleet was somehow the bloodthirsty party of murderes perplexes me. After all, as you said, was it not the cowards of Mehkios who lynched their slaves in fear of an uprising?


They were on both sides. No need to go on the verge of hypocrisy.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Your also forgetting the amount of Insorum needed to kill someone vs the amount needed to cure Vitoc. Granted, any exposure is not healthy, but there was nowhere near enough Insorum to poison a whole planet.


Do you have scientific backup for this ? I would like to see your sources and an accurate study of what was the insorum effect on the assaulted planets.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:37:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel


There is no logical link between the fact that slavery works and the fact that Amarr bloodlines are morally superior.



I am glad that you at least agree with me that slavery works.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.05 13:16:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Lyn Farel


There is no logical link between the fact that slavery works and the fact that Amarr bloodlines are morally superior.



I am glad that you at least agree with me that slavery works.


Of course slavery "works". "Working" is a rather wide term. For example, complete genocide "works" as an answer to the Amarrian question. One might wonder whether it's a good answer, though (I do currently hope that there are alternatives).

The argument brought forth by some believers of your god is not that slavery "does not work", but that it works rather badly compared to certain alternatives.

The "argument" brought forth by some non-believers of your god is that you will get killed repeatedly for as long as you try to impose slavery on us.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:45:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
But who knows, the Amarr are sadly very efficient at eradicting foreign cultures.


The Amarr do not destroy cultures, they help them evolve. I have no doubt many Matari tribal cultures have changed as time progressed, they would have needed to adapt to advancing science and insight and replace old traditions with new ones. In the end we are all children of God, and we are all Amarr.

The Ni-Kunni fullfill a valuable role within Amarr society and has enriched Amarr culture by their own unique perspective on matters. Their culture was not destroyed, it was integrated.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.06 13:17:00 - [59]
 

The end result is more or less the same, yes. Coming from a world whose culture has been blended in the Amarrian culture by choice, I can affirm that the Nefantar culture has not really remained the more dominant feature in the Mandate, but it is still very present, much as the Ni-Kunni culture is in the core worlds, or even the Khanid culture. Be it forced or not - and even if I believe that forced integration is only a short and medium run benefit and a totally null gain strategy in the end considering the moral issues and the cultural disharmony between Amarr and outsiders - cultures blend when they meet each other. The more pervasive of that imperialistic system is arguably the Gallente sphere of influence, which is not a forced integration, but has the same results. The only difference being in the methods used, but not that much anymore, considering the new tendancies of the Amarr Empire itself.

Remember : integration does not mean eradication, and works in both ways. A very basic analogy can be applied here : you can spill carbonized compounds in pure O², while Carbon will get integrated, O² will also turn into CO² and not be O² anymore.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.06 14:25:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2011 14:37:08
No one claimed that there is no trace of the "integrated" cultures.

A lot of those cultures are lost (excepting maybe the Khanid), because the Amarr considered those degenerated. We do not know how much, because, well, you see, that's what lost means.

We do know that greater parts of the Minmatar culture was suppressed and was not present in Amarr anymore. We know that, because we have some outside records and the Minmatar have only been under subjugation for eight hundred years.

We do not know how much of the Ni-Kunni culture was lost. There is only now some research starting to find that out, and that was what I was referring to.

So when the good admiral claims that "[t]he Ni-Kunni were a simple, primitive people when we encountered them, and generations of slavery have raised them up", he speaks from a typical point of Amarrian hubris. The Minmatar when we were encountered were a spacefaring nation spanning multiple solar systems if not regions. Despite that, the Amarr will not cease to call us primitive to feel justified in their "educational mission". It's highly fascinating to research the Ni-Kunni culture to see what their advances were before the Amarr rebranded them as "their own" or tried to eradicate them for being degenerated.


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