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Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:53:00 - [1]
 

Wait, I know you are disappointed. I am not an Amarrian. Sometimes people do not take opportunities to speak their conscience unless they are directly invited to do so. Inertia holds us back. “Let someone else start”, we say. I opened this topic to provide a place for Amarrians to speak for Abolition. I am not so naïve to think that there will not be those who speak against abolition as well, but we need to provide at least a forum, where the Amarrian capsuleer may begin to express convictions against slavery.

So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:23:00 - [2]
 

Nahhh, the public forum is good enough to get a target... (in case someone talks, we got big guns aimed at him/her). hehe

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 19:31:01
Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 19:30:45
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Wait, I know you are disappointed. I am not an Amarrian. Sometimes people do not take opportunities to speak their conscience unless they are directly invited to do so. Inertia holds us back. “Let someone else start”, we say. I opened this topic to provide a place for Amarrians to speak for Abolition. I am not so naïve to think that there will not be those who speak against abolition as well, but we need to provide at least a forum, where the Amarrian capsuleer may begin to express convictions against slavery.

So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?



Did ye miss the posts o' some Amarrians? There be a litter o' abolitionist speech for ye to find here on IGS by Amarrians. 'Sides, I've personally spoken with a couple o' Amarrians that nay be too shiny on slavery but vocally speakin' 'gainst it seems to cause problems for 'em and may compromise what they be tryin' to accomplish.

If they speak out for ye, good on 'em but do nay think they do nay exist just 'cause they nay be vocal 'bout it. Sometimes discretion be the better part o' valor.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.30 21:21:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Ston Momaki on 31/08/2011 01:01:28
Mr. Khross,

Yes, I have heard the discussion if you are referring to the intellectual waltz that people are dancing around the issue; the chin rubbing; the throat clearing; the pedagogy. That is not what is called for. Never in history has there been a movement for abolition without words strong enough to evoke the pointing of cannons and the threats of death. Abolition requires a stand that rejects the notion that discretion is the better part of valor. Discretion in this case displaces valor. Now is the time for risk. Now is the time for open repentance. Words like, “I repent of my slave holding.” “Slavery is wrong, always.” “I am emancipating all my slaves and joining the cause of abolition.”

Edit: comments withdrawn as inappropriate and uncharacteristic of the Disciples of Ston. With apologies.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:27:00 - [5]
 

There are many, and the number was growing for some time. Even a few Holders began to suggest re-evaluating the practice.

Then the Elders invaded the Empire, and the more conservative voices squelched the abolitionists. Empress Jamyl's proclamation was nigh miraculous in such a political climate.

Still, as long as this proxy war remains unresolved, I doubt you'll see any real developments. A few abolitionists remain, but the wise among them are quiet for now.

There are several Amarrian capsuleers who wish to see the practice end as well, which counts for just about nothing...

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:00:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 23:43:40
Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 30/08/2011 23:04:05
Originally by: Ston Momaki

Finally, cut the accent, it is irritating beyond words. No one "writes" with an accent.



EDIT: Differences settled, no sense keeping the argument up.


Were just bringin' somethin' to your attention. What you're demanding be done could bring 'bout more harm than good and could compromise the ones what stand for exactly what you're wanting 'em to. Nary a good thing will come o' e'eryone standin' up to be shot down.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:08:00 - [7]
 

The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves. (Jamyl Sarum)

It's amusing to see that some so-called "loyalists" clinging to their chains of hatred that have caused so many problems for the Empire, and even speak up against their own empress if her will is against their personal preferences.

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:49:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki

So, who will be the first brave Amarrian to step forward?



I'm number one!


Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 01:40:00 - [9]
 

"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.31 10:52:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I


Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".

I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I


Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".

I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?


Quoting for Mr. Crow.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:39:00 - [12]
 

I have always be in favor of a slavery global reform, and have never hiden it. It is not my main motivation, but it is part of what I believe.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I


Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".

I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?


I assume you are aware of the word "new", in "New Reclaming" ? If not, of course, please explain the contradiction between the coronation speach made by the Empress and your outdated meaning of Reclaiming. I must have missed something, or otherwise your statement would imply that the Empress is incoherent.

Vaari
Amarr
Imperial Pharmacy
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:54:00 - [13]
 

What is abolition?

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:05:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Vaari
What is abolition?


Err...ye bein' serious, lad?

Abolition be the annulment, destruction or cessation o' something. Or, politically, it refers to the end of slavery.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:30:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
I have always be in favor of a slavery global reform, and have never hiden it. It is not my main motivation, but it is part of what I believe.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/08/2011 10:55:39
Originally by: Ston Momaki
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I


Delivering a powerful opening speech, Empress Jamyl boldly announced the start of a new Reclaiming, calling on all those of faith to "stand by her side" as the Empire recovered from "the excesses of a misguided path".

I assume you know what a Reclaiming is?


I assume you are aware of the word "new", in "New Reclaming" ? If not, of course, please explain the contradiction between the coronation speach made by the Empress and your outdated meaning of Reclaiming. I must have missed something, or otherwise your statement would imply that the Empress is incoherent.


There's a difference between a New Reclaiming and a new Reclaiming. I'll leave you to work out what it is.

My view on this is quite simple really, and it's something that I've been explaining for many years now.

Slavery is a neccessity in some cases, but not a timeless one.

Consider the Ni-Kunni and the Udorians. They were Reclaimed, and they were enslaved. Once they were sufficiently civilised, they were released.

The Khanid embraced God's word without complaint, and so they were not enslaved. But you might say that they were still Reclaimed.

The Ammatar were emanicpated along the same lines as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.

So you see, those that accept the civilising benevolence of the Amarr are treated as friends, and those who do not are enlightened about what it means to serve God before being released. It's the way the Empire has always done things.

It's pretty much the policy espoused by both Heideran VII and Doriam II, and and of course Empress Jamyl has continued the policy with her emancipation of some Minmatar slaves.

There will no doubt come a time when slavery is no longer neccessary, and I for one am working towards that day. But one needs to appreciate what "approaching fast" means when one is talking about an Empire that has existed for tens of millenia.

As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.

I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.

Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 - [16]
 

There are several abolitionist groups, e.g. the secret stairway.

They are as fanatic in their interpretation of scripture as any of the ultra-conservatives.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:49:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.

I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.


I think that the contradiction lies here.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:44:00 - [18]
 

It's only a contradiction if one holds abolition to be the end of slavery.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
It's only a contradiction if one holds abolition to be the end of slavery.


Err..that be kind o' what it means, lass.

Actually, forego the "kind o'" that be exactly what it means, 'less ye be tryin' to suggest it were used out o' context?

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:27:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Definition of END

1
    a : the part of an area that lies at the boundary
    b (1) : a point that marks the extent of something (2) : the point where something ceases to exist <world without end>
    c : the extreme or last part lengthwise : tip
    d : the terminal unit of something spatial that is marked off by units
    e : a player stationed at the extremity of a line (as in football)

2
    a : cessation of a course of action, pursuit, or activity
    b : death, destruction
    c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

3
    : something incomplete, fragmentary, or undersized : remnant

4
    a : an outcome worked toward : purpose <the end of poetry is to be poetry — R. P. Warren>
    b : the object by virtue of or for the sake of which an event takes place

5
    a : a share in an undertaking <kept your end up>
    b : a particular operation or aspect of an undertaking or organization <the sales end of the business>

6
    : something that is extreme : ultimate —used with the

7
    : a period of action or turn in any of various sports events (as archery or lawn bowling)



If you think of the end of slavery as abolition and claim that this is the only way it can be understood, you seem to be only familiar with meaning 2a - If I get Admiral Blake right, he alluded more to something like 2c or 4, which is, to my understanding, perfectly reasonable. One could even say that "The end of slavery is freedom." without meaning that slavery has ever to be abolished, but rather that every single slave is meant to be reformed and enabled to allow them to participate in society as a free citizen and that, if he reaches a state in which he is able to do that, should be liberated.

Thus, slavery isn't an end in itself (as in, slavery is not the purpose of slavery) but rather a means to an end.

So, whilst with understanding end 9in the way of 2a produces a self-contradicting statement with what the Admiral said ("As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.") neither 2c nor 4 does so. Which would lead us to the conclusion that the meanings given by either 2c or 4 were the ones intended by Admiral Blake, while using 'end'.

Fatihfully,
N. Mithra

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:32:00 - [21]
 

Maybe I should take the time to explain more explicitly what the Admiral has said, as far as I understand:

Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.

(Please correct me if I got you wrong there, Admiral.)

Faithfully
N. Mithra

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:08:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Maybe I should take the time to explain more explicitly what the Admiral has said, as far as I understand:

Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.

(Please correct me if I got you wrong there, Admiral.)

Faithfully
N. Mithra


Of course Admiral Blake has the final say on the meaning of his words, but I believe you are correct, Lady Mithra.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 07:29:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/09/2011 07:30:10
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As such, it's quite possible to Reclaim new slaves whilst working towards the end of slavery because slavery is a process not an end in itself.

I don't see that my viewpoint (which agrees with the Empress' one) as being at all incoherent, so if you are confused by it I must assume that there is a problem with your comprehension abilities.


I think that the contradiction lies here.


It's no contradiction at all.

The sooner we get on with enslaving those who refuse to submit to God, the sooner we can get them or their descendents enlightened and release them.


Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Once everyone has been reclaimed - through slavery or otherwise - slavery will cease to exist, as the natural result of proper slavery. There will simply cease to be people that need to be enslaved, in his view.


You are correct.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:37:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 01/09/2011 10:37:11
Ah ! Clever.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:25:00 - [25]
 

Gotta admit, one can respect the fact that yer nay changin' yer original declaration to "enslave and enlighten" e'eryone.

Also gotta respect how many different ways one can interpret a statement and color it to be sayin' whate'er the cluster ye want it to be sayin'.

Good luck with yer continued conquest and such, if the Matari e'er get tired at shootin' at yer golden rumps, sure there be plenty more willin' to do so in their stead.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:16:00 - [26]
 

And who says slavers beat about the bush...

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:21:00 - [27]
 

I understand it now. Slavery isn't just for economic gain, it serves another purpose. It brainwashes.

A true love for God can only come willingly, and that willingness must not be from negative outside influence forcing him to it. I'm talking about this 'fear-induced religion'. It would be far more effective a gesture to release at least a large portion of your slaves as an extension of God's true love and good will, rather than trying to force a love that they have no evidence exists due to the nature of their current situation.


Tiara Sikai
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:56:00 - [28]
 

As a holder myself, I am somewhat less than happy about the current state of slavery. While we are in the right (the Theology Council reaffirmed this time and again), we are not necessarily at the most effective state of affairs.

Few slaves can really be educated right now, even with Vitoc and other technologies of persuasion - and education is the institutions primary purpose. On the other hand, the economic incentive to keep slaves keeps getting slimmer and slimmer, with cost of upkeep and education already rivaling other options for many but the most menial and unskilled activities. I for one would not be averse to turning the remaining slaves loose - and allow those who desire to learn through submission to submit. The others are often wasted words, resources and ultimately lives. Let them see how they manage a budget, turn in a wage and not be assured their next meal will arrive on its own.

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.09.02 19:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tiara Sikai
...I for one would not be averse to turning the remaining slaves loose - and allow those who desire to learn through submission to submit. The others are often wasted words, resources and ultimately lives. Let them see how they manage a budget, turn in a wage and not be assured their next meal will arrive on its own.


While I could care less about slavery in general (this may come as a surprise to some). I do see a very real danger in letting people who may not be loyal go unsupervised. Perhaps some sort of probationary period, where they are monitored is in order, lest we have more Republic spies than we already do in the Empire's space. Freed slaves seem to be a fertile recruiting ground for such people.

I see many such security concerns though, the fact that I don't have MIO agents shadowing me, someone of Brutor heritage, who spend a very short time in the Republic Military School, tells me that either the state of security is poor or it is so good that I don't notice them, and if it really is that good, then well, even if the MIO doesn't condone my associations outside of the empire they can't mind them too much.

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 19:36:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Manwe Todako on 02/09/2011 19:39:24
Edited by: Manwe Todako on 02/09/2011 19:37:14
Edit: This is a quotation of Ston from another thread. I thought it was well-worded

Emancipation should be immediate!
Matriculation should be gradual!

Emancipation is the step of faith that seals the commitment to end slavery absolutely once and for all. Nothing less should be accepted. Matriculation is the commitment on the part of the emancipator to helping the former slave become a part of free society. MATRICULATION PREVENTS THE CHAOS EVERYONE IS SO WORRIED ABOUT.

Emancipation turns the slave into a matriculant.
Matriculation turns the matriculant into a citizen.

Slave becomes matriculant becomes citizen

Is the process neat and tidy? No. The injustice of slavery has continued for centuries. The processes of immediate emancipation and gradual matriculation are the logical and just courses when a society falls under the conviction that its actions have been wrong and need to be corrected. There will be great expenses involved and much hard work, but this should not create a fear that prevents immediate emancipation. This immediate abolition and emancipation is as much for the slave holder as it is for the slave.



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