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blankseplocked So...about those *EMERGENCY* CSM Meeting Minutes...
 
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Bustin Jieber
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:05:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.


Both help botters and RMT'ers

No they don't.

Vaako Horizon
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:05:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones

2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.



And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.


Do you use the EVE client only? there are so meny ways of letting someone else know and I am sure the CSM do abuse it, what other reason is there to even be a CSM, you have no say :P

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:27:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 17:29:51
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 17:29:21
Originally by: Uleai
Originally by: Two step
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.

As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it.


Or have already done that stuff before. See: BoB
Ive seen chatlogs an screenies from "other sites" of dev chatter on Instant Messenger before. Thats nothing new

Originally by: Bustin Jieber
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.


Both help botters and RMT'ers

No they don't.


Wonderful argument

Right up there with "nuh uh" "uh huh" which is followed by "Im rubber youre glue..."

But yeah. WHY do we have a CSM again?

Elyssa MacLeod
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:34:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 31/08/2011 17:36:00

Quote:
Developer misconduct

Instances of developer misconduct in Eve Online have been substantiated, leading to debates and controversy within the game community. On February 9, 2007, a player known as ********** revealed that an Eve Online developer nicknamed 't20' had provided his alliance, Band of Brothers, with ten valuable tech 2 blueprint originals, giving them an advantage over competing alliances.

Some within the Eve Online community asked for t20's dismissal. While an apology letter was left for the community in the form of a dev blog, he remained an Eve Online developer until late 2008. ********** was permanently banned from the Eve Online universe for violating the game's Terms of Service and End-user License Agreement by revealing t20's real name.

In response to public concerns, CCP decided to set up an Internal Affairs division whose responsibility is to monitor the activities of both privileged and player accounts operated by CCP staff in-game.

Council of Stellar Management
In part due to the matters above, CCP invited users to stand for the first Council of Stellar Management (CSM) in March 2008, resulting in 66 candidates seeking election to nine positions. It was a requirement that candidates release their full real names in addition to stating their in-game details.

In May, after a two-week voting period, the first Council was elected, comprising seven men and two women; three each from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, two from the USA and one from Denmark, their ages ranging from 17 to 52. The remit of the Council has been changed since it was first proposed and is now seen by CCP primarily as a route for players to make requests for changes and improvements to the game mechanics, presentation, and game content of Eve Online.

The first four Councils served for six months, after which new ones were to be elected. Each individual was only permitted to serve twice. Each CSM will get the authority to put requests to CCP three times during their term of office which CCP have stated must be answered; once in person in Iceland and twice by e-mail, with most of the costs of their visit to Iceland being borne by CCP. The fifth CSM will operate under new rules, featuring one-year terms with two Iceland trips and four email requests, as well as the abolition of the two-term limit.

The first meeting of the CSM with CCP took place in Reykjavik between June 19 and 23, 2008 and included not only the nine CSM members but a number of developers, designers, game masters and producers from CCP and members of print and video media. Matters discussed by players on the Eve Online forums were reviewed in detail and whilst some were rejected for technical reasons many were accepted by CCP as useful improvements to the game which would be introduced either in an early so-called point release or added to the development plans for a future major update.

Nominations for the second CSM opened on September 26, 2008 with voting commencing on November 9. The following third Council of Stellar Management will see a modified age restriction in effect: candidates under the age of 21 are then no longer eligible as CSM members.


THATS why
Its on Wikipedia it CANT be true

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:37:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones

2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.



And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.


We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.

Captain Hindsite
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:21:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Roime
Minutes is a seriouzzz bizness :oooo

EVE IS DIEING

let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old that had no meaning whatsoever even when it was fresh

Actually no, let's not quit, but ***** & whine like spoiled little brats on forums.

Most of the playerbase never reads these forums, don't give a rat's arse about this CSM metagaming stuff, never bother with CQ QQ or that store thing because those things have 0 effect on the actual game. Boohoomoaning, namecalling and overall super negative writings on totally irrelevant things, it's like some people have nothing better to do than fill the world with negativity. Ok maybe not the world, but at least General Discussion.

If you would play moar and whine less you'd all be 136% happier - haters gonna hate, players gonna play :-*



Thank you for so thoroughly making yourself look like a douchebag.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:43:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293

Zirise
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:54:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293


Don't mind the village idiots.


Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


You do realize internal affairs keeps track of any accounts tied to your credit card and where your ISK/PLEX are going in game. It's not quite as easy as just 'making an alt.'


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:57:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293


You are a CSM alternate delegate.

Quote:
Perhaps you might try paying a little attention?



Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:08:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293


You are a CSM alternate delegate.

Quote:
Perhaps you might try paying a little attention?







oooooooo SNAP!!

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:10:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293


It gives me a childish jolly, knowing that your surname has 'shlag' in it. Very Happy

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:10:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Zirise
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293


Don't mind the village idiots.


Originally by: Cipher Jones
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.


You do realize internal affairs keeps track of any accounts tied to your credit card and where your ISK/PLEX are going in game. It's not quite as easy as just 'making an alt.'




If I can circumvent the API to create a spy and infiltrate a corporation you can do so also.

I understand you are uncomfortable about my speculation of what could happen, and view it as an accusation of sorts. Lets just take one second to review facts.

CCP got caught cheating; then formed the CSM.
At least one CSM has been caught cheating.

I'll be your idiot {huckleberry], but I'd have to be literally ****ing ******ed to assume that someone is infallible, and so would anyone else.


Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:13:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 19:14:44
Originally by: Cipher Jones

CCP got caught cheating; then formed the CSM.
At least one CSM has been caught cheating.



CSM cheating, not a surprise. power corrupts, an I doubt anyone in this game is a prefect angel to START with.

Well my question here is simple. CCP got caught cheating, formed the CSM for a PR scam that would never have worked, changed it to PR puppets they can pull out whenever they need them.

My question:

Why do we need a CSM?
I know WHY we HAVE one but why do we NEED one?

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:27:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Prince Kobol on 31/08/2011 19:27:26
Why do we need a CSM.. simple, we don't

At the moment having a CSM is causing more problems then it is solving.

There is so little trust in the current CSM that there is no point having them.

Most people believe that they do not give a damn about the game being developed for the good all but only interested in how it affects them and everybody else be damned.

Also when you have people who now work at CCP who used to be part of the very alliances that are on the current CSM, and that said alliance is deemed to be one of the most untrust worthy in the game, this only breads nothing but distrust.

Add on top of this when you look at CCP's apparent reluctance at actually doing anything against the null sec alliances who are involved with mass RMT you have to wonder.


Elyssa MacLeod
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:29:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 31/08/2011 19:35:58
Originally by: Prince Kobol

Most people believe that they do not give a damn about the game being developed for the good all but only interested in how it affects them and everybody else be damned.



And apparently that theyre actively trying to destroy the game. I remember when Mittens got on the CSM, ppl were saying they hoped he broke the game.

Quote:
Two Step:
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.


You realize thats you pretending they couldnt play the game if that were true... anything they do could them be construed by IA as cheating.

Which is why I call bull**** on this

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:38:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones

2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.



And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.


Right.. So a CSM member would not be able to tell a friend who is in a corp/alliance that is not connected to his/her corp/alliance outside of Eve, i.e IRC chat, private email, phone call, carrier pigeon, Semaphore, you get the point, about CCP's up and coming plans so then together they would be able to make xxx amount of isk?

Yeah, that could never happen Rolling Eyes


supersexysucker
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:03:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
[I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.

We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.


So to fix it... you are editing it to cover your fucĸ ups.

Just say it... we are editing what you see to benifit us... fucĸ you guys, lol TONE... give me a fucĸing break.

I want direct TRUTH not ccp BS lies.

HAI, you want tone... "blah blah eve sucks" (In a firm tone)
"OMG tha tsounds like a great idea" =D face...

MOAR ccp BS. Look at that... I just got tone and expressions across in text! Holy fucĸ.

Ellan Thrace
Caldari
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:15:00 - [108]
 

Leaked meeting minutes, latest draft..

It was a dark and stormy night somewhere not in Iceland. The CSM had already entered the meeting room and agreed that Iceland was amazing and that the fact that CCP had called this meeting meant that CCP was seriously interested in the player's feedback.

Many of the CSM quietly reflected on their journey to Iceland and their path to being part of something as amazing as the CSM. They all thought CCP must truly be the most amazing game company ever! The CSM and of course the ripples CCP had caused in the game industry with the release of the first ever private room MMO feature with propriatary creepy character graphics that would certainly help make the new vampire game a huge success showed CCP to truly be ahead of the pack!

When CCP arrived the CSM could see in the kindly faces of the CCP employees that any thoughts of CCP not having the current player's best interest at heart clearly were a mistake!

The meetings began with CCP explaining a lot of really cool stuff that can't be discussed here because of NDA. The CSM then shared that they had heard rumors that some players were concerned about a leaked memo and some other email but that largely they were just happy to get another chance to hang out in Iceland.

For serveral days the CSM and CCP shared wonderful ideas about the future of Eve which sadly again cannot be shared due to NDA. What both sides finally agreed on was that a statement could be released to share the real sentiment of the meeting.

They all agreed that CCP loves Eve and would never do anything to Eve that wasn't awesome and the CSM sully supported CCP in making Eve even more awesome in the future.

The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.


Notes attached to the draft say this version still needs work to be approved as it contains too much content about the meeting itself and there were not enough cute elements to distract the players. It suggests adding something about some new fashion items or pets in future versions of CQ.


ET

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:18:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Ellan Thrace

The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.


Not true, there were also pony rides. I was there...

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:17:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Ellan Thrace

The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.


Not true, there were also pony rides. I was there...


nice to know you take this seriously lol

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 06:29:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung

nice to know you take this seriously lol


in fairness, even if Two Step WASNT taking this seriously, would you really blame him? I mean CCP isnt taking CSM seriously, so why should any of them take it seriously?

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.09.01 07:59:00 - [112]
 

I wish I worked in Iceland.

If CCP is any example, apparently it's common for one man's work for a day to take entire corporations months or years to accomplish.

For example: Just this morning Hilmar received a cup of coffee from his secretary. The problem being, he asked to go get the cup of coffee sometime in January.


How many ways does CCP need to tell all of you to screw off before you actually get the hint? Just keep paying them money and they'll give you whatever the hell they feel like. If you have complaints or concerns, shut up or leave, CCP does not care.

This cow is old, they've slaughtered it and sent it to market so they can buy feed for their new cows.

Trolls Troll
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:39:00 - [113]
 

Anyone want to take bets on how long before mins are released?

Uleai
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:09:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Uleai on 01/09/2011 14:25:28
Edited by: Uleai on 01/09/2011 14:24:18
Originally by: SexxxSlave
how about staying on topic, you tard?

It appears that no one else is either. I don't see you calling out all the people after me. Strangely, there are at least 4 people who posted BEFORE me that were already off topic AND I was responding to their line of discussion. So. WTF is your problem?

WeirdNoise
Caldari
tagueuletoi
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:26:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get.

Nope, this customer does not agree.
Quote:
And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.

I don't care, it's the beauty of the written text medium : you use your imagination to fill the blanks in.
Quote:
Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names,

Horrendous choice but very predictable from a corporate perspective.
Quote:
a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone),

I hate being baby-sit and patronized.
I want information and that means Reality, not rewriting.
The minutes would be interesting to read if they were real minutes (i.e. unedited) but now that you've described how they're made up, I won't even bother checking them out... which I suspect, is the real underlying objective in such a long winded editing tactic.
Quote:
etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.

I hate corporations.
They turn people into zombies, both their customers and employees.

Aisle9
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:29:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.

The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.

Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?

.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.


Capturing the tone is easy. Change every 'CCP said..' to "CCP lied and said..." and you will get the correct tone.

LJB
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:36:00 - [117]
 

The issue has and will always be about the ballance of power that is eve, currently it is and has been since I've been around very much slanted towards ccp, yes it is there product, but we are buying that product from them, issues then arrise because ccp have a set of rules they expect us to follow, yet they demonstrate through there actions, (and sometimes inaction) a lack of rules governing themselves, thus the balance of power in eve is screwed and slanted totally towards ccp.

What I would like to see the csm focusing on is addressing this, so that there is s minimal set of standards we can expect From ccp, a set of standards we can hold them to as well.

LJB

tika te
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:44:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: tika te on 01/09/2011 14:44:51
just few bits of info here...
Linkage

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:06:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: tika te
Edited by: tika te on 01/09/2011 14:44:51
just few bits of info here...
Linkage


good read, confirms ccp just want it to sound liek they give a **** about eve and the players. which is clearly the oposit of there actions of late

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:18:00 - [120]
 

Regardless of the nuances the two or more sides are trying to convey with the minutes, dragging it out is not helpful. Political scandal image advisers say a politician who screws up is much better off doing a complete data dump early. Get it all out and move on. None of the "nobody will ever find out" - because if they do find out, it reminds everybody of the screw-up and it all spins up again, perhaps even on a higher pitch. Look at the comment from the CCP COO who gave an interview to the Icelandic newspaperpaper mbl.is using an obscene reference to describe the protesters -- big forum news for two days, and then it expired from the front page. Scandal over... at least that part.

So the CSM didn't approve the CCP-prepared minutes? Let them issue their own minutes. The CCM doesn't agree among themselves? Let them each issue as many as needed. This isn't like the Yalta Agreements, where everybody has to agree on how something was said... but oh, wait -- the English and Russian versions of Yalta didn't agree, arguably exacerbating the cold war. But I digress. I would hazard a guess that the EVE-Online players who care about these issues are smart enough to read and compare and understand who's "nuancing" where... if anybody cares.

Trickling this stuff out wasn't a winning strategy, in my opinion.


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