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Rath Kelbore
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:07:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.

The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.

Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?

.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?


Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.



You could probably say CCP/CSM angrily stated that they disagree.

Is that really what's holding this whole thing up? Seems pretty trivial to me. This could be as much CSM's fault as CCP's for all I know, but come on. It really can't be that hard can it?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:25:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.

The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.

Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?

.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.


Well OK, but 2.5 months?

Dusty Warrior
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:53:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Dusty Warrior on 30/08/2011 21:16:36


Hmmm...

I've had this nagging feeling for some time now. I thought it was the wifey at first, then noticed a curiosity.

Firstly, I know the meaning behind NDA, PIA, CA, CIA etc. I've signed a few in my life and understand the purpose.

However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information has/was/is passed onto CSM cliches that use it against others much like insider trading on world markets.

300k accounts/players not affiliated or fortunate/unfortunate enough to know the members of the present and/or past CSM are left at a disadvantage of not knowing the pending changes.

This also extends to the employees who play EVE as a member of player ran corps and alliances. We've already seen the damage done with CCP employees running amuck, hence the introduction of CSM.

We've all read and observed the general consensus of the present CSM towards anyone who didn't vote for them. They don't represent any individual, corp, alliance who didn't vote for them or doesn't live in 0.0. Only represent friends, family and the ones willing to be their slaves in 0.0

How fair is it, that a group of people like the CSM, get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all?

Really, how fair is it?

Why even have a CSM?

They've made it abundantly clear by their own admission where they stand on the remainder of 300k players not in their cliches.

I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best, why is CCP wasting the money?

Save the CSM funds! CCP go buy a year supply of pizza, hotdogs, and hamburgers so we can listen to your arteries hardening. We don't care to hear the beer bottles opening everytime a CSM lands in Iceland.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:17:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 20:19:46
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries
by the time they come out will they be as relevant?
Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?




If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed

I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.

As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for?


I don't remember what it was developed for but I certainly know what it was developed as a result of.

CCP, I can stick up for your game because it is still fun to play to this day. However, your actions, or lack thereof, really make it a difficult chore. You guys need to quit saying you are going to do **** that you cant do in the time-frame you give.

2.5 months for some minutes is bull**** in anybodies book.

When you said you wanted to have better communications you mgiht as well have said "We don't plan on gold ammo and if you want to know anything deeper than that GTFO."

Because that's exactly what you gave us.


Back when T20 happened we got an announcement OR Dev Blog, that part I dont remember what I DO remember is it was the formation of a select group of people to be voted in and selected by the players to go to Iceland to ensure CCP wouldnt cheat in the game again. That was of course impossible, so we get the group of marionettes we see now

Originally by: Dusty Warrior

Why even have a CSM? They've made it abundantly clear where they stand on the remainder of 300k players. I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best then why is CCP wasting money that can be spent on more important things that will benefit us all, not just the few 0.0 carebears.


technically as Ive heard and seen thrown around its like 10-15%. Its said 80% of the game's population are in High sec

BehindDOORNEXWhore
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:20:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Dusty Warrior


Why even have a CSM?



Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:24:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Dusty Warrior
Hmmm...

I've had this nagging for some time now. First, thought it was the wifey, then noticed a curiosity.

Firstly, I know the meaning behind NDA, PIA, CA, CIA etc.I've signed a few in my life and understand the purpose.

However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information was/is passed on that gives the CSM members an unfair advantage.

300k account holders not affiliated or fortunate/unfortunate to know the members of the present or past CSM are left at a disadvantage?

This would also extend to the employess who play EVE as a member of player ran corps and alliances. We've already seen the damage can be done, hence the introduction of CSM.

We've all read and observed the general consensus of the present CSM towards anyone who didn't vote for them. They don't represent any individual, corp, alliance who didn't vote for them. Only represent friends, family and the like.

How fair is it that a group of people like the CSM get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all?

Really, how fair is it?

Why even have a CSM? They've made it abundantly clear where they stand on the remainder of 300k players. I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best then why is CCP wasting money that can be spent on more important things that will benefit us all, not just the few 0.0 carebears.


2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:48:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones

2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.



And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:08:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Jason1138
Originally by: 'CCP Xhagen'
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get.




i don't agree at all. i would enjoy reading a direct transcription that puts a name to every comment.


I agree with Jason1138, and disagree with CCP Xhagen.

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:22:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones

2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.



And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.

You know, in a game were creating an account for botting is so easy, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using information like that for their own use.

Goddess Ishtar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:22:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.

What Isdees
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:26:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov

You know, in a game were creating an account for botting is so easy, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using information like that for their own use.


You know, in a game where players of then major corps are known to have CCP devs on IM lists....

Unless of course IA monitors every IM you send out, every Vent convo, every email

...or even care as much as you pretend they do.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.31 04:58:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.



Xhagen, look at it from our point of view. Can you see why we are annoyed? 3 months, for a transcript of minutes. Minutes that are being edited and edited that many times that they will resemble nothing of both the dialogue or the tone set by the meeting. All it will be is a replica of the statements released after the summit. In fact it doesn't really matter anymore, it's almost like CCP look at its playerbase with the same distaste as we view them. I cant get that.

I know you personally can't do anything about the minutes, but please, think before you post. Think about how part of the community is at the moment. We dont need more excuses. We dont need more fabrication.

All we want is a reason to keep playing our favourite game. So many people fail to see that the whining and complaining on the forums is only because people want to keep Eve a great game.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.31 05:22:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones


2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.




u know the last CSM that used his NDA knowledge to make billions was kicked off the CSM (banned i think too) and never allowed to run for CSM again, right?

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.08.31 08:39:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.


Only if you only care about 0.0. Not everybody only cares about 0.0. And if you think ABC ores impact 0.0 mining profitabilty your very uninformed.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.31 08:50:00 - [75]
 

Just a few things i would like to point out...

1) Taking minutes is easy, typing them up to be appropriate is not
2) Having a 'transcript' is NOT minutes. At all.
3) There is no 'He said' 'She said', it's a summary bullet point for each topic: what is discussed, ideas floated, thats it.
4) There may be alot of sensitive facts in the minutes, the contents of which may be released when the time is right.

Until then, having the minutes in your hand will mean nothing at all. It's like yesterdays news. Some of the news items may have affected you already and you are aware, other things are irrelevent to you.

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.31 08:53:00 - [76]
 

I stand by what I said. Meeting minutes are just that, information about what was said. If your not comfertable as a company releasing information about the meetings you have, don't release them. Its that simple. If you need to edit the original content, than skip the meeting minutes and just create a dev blog with the outcome. I don't see a point in releasing meeting minutes that where changed or edited to reflect what you want people to think the meeting was about. The point of meeting minutes is to get an inside look at the actual meeting, not the edited, altered version that you would like us to to see, editing out the parts you don't.

Fluffing the meeting minutes is what I have an issue with. Again their was a meeting, people said stuff, thats what we want to read, curses and all. We want to read what people said, what they discussed and how they came to their conclusions. If you don't want us to have that, than its far more productive to just give us the results, what was decided, what steps will be taken to resolve the main issues.

Really right now, not releasing the minutes after having told us that you will is doing far more damage than the original problem for which the meeting was held. Its really poor handling of the communities interest. This was an emergency summit, called to resolve a problem with a lot of unhappy players. I listened to the pod casts on Eve radio where they interviewed the CSM's and their concerns and point of views about the main issues like NEX store and the future of Eve where all right on the money. The reason we want to see the meeting minutes is because we are all trying to come to grips exactly where CCP went wrong and how they are going to correct the situation. We want to see some results not a lot of double talk and delays. Get it together CCP, the community is up in arms and frankly (and personally) I believe it has far more to do with the lack of clear and timely information far more than the actual issues. I mean hell this whole NEX store thing was like a bomb that went off and all anyone at CCP needed to do to resolve the issue is to re-enforce their stance on how the NEX store will be used. The questions are pretty simple and direct.. What will the future of the NEX store be and what kind of items will you and won't you sell on that future. We want an honest, clear commitment from CCP. We want a Yes or a No answer. Clear, direct, purposeful and commited to seeing it through as stated. We don't want the in game items appearing on the NEX store, the question is, are their plans to do just that.

If the answer is a definitive no, that can be put up on a blog in 30 seconds flat. One line. No emergency summits needed, no BS meeting minutes. Bam.. NO.. thank you mam. Done.

There is far too much fuss and circle jerking going on in iceland with some of these issues. If you have made a decesion on something, tell us what it is and move on. Fluffing things isn't going to change anything. The answers to our questions need to be answered and everyone is looking at these meeting minutes for those answers. You have kind of created a pretty serious situation for yourselves now CCP because everyone expects those answers to be in their.


daisy cutta
Posted - 2011.08.31 09:14:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.


Hmm why do all parties have to agree, surely minutes should just be a record of what was talked about

Or is it that one side is trying to cover up some issues or put a spin on it

Minutes could be released in 24 hrs, not three months





Officer Spawn
Posted - 2011.08.31 09:56:00 - [78]
 

Maybe another emergency summit should be arranged to discuss the minutes of the last one.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:15:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Officer Spawn
Maybe another emergency summit should be arranged to discuss the minutes of the last one.


lol good one

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:24:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: BehindDOORNEX*****
Originally by: Dusty Warrior


Why even have a CSM?





+1

KB

Roime
Gallente
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:58:00 - [81]
 

Minutes is a seriouzzz bizness :oooo

EVE IS DIEING

let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old that had no meaning whatsoever even when it was fresh

Actually no, let's not quit, but ***** & whine like spoiled little brats on forums.

Most of the playerbase never reads these forums, don't give a rat's arse about this CSM metagaming stuff, never bother with CQ QQ or that store thing because those things have 0 effect on the actual game. Boohoomoaning, namecalling and overall super negative writings on totally irrelevant things, it's like some people have nothing better to do than fill the world with negativity. Ok maybe not the world, but at least General Discussion.

If you would play moar and whine less you'd all be 136% happier - haters gonna hate, players gonna play :-*






Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:25:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Roime


let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old



Better yet, lets nerdrage about ppl raging and ignore everything CCP does cause they know best

sig...

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:33:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Cipher Jones


2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.




u know the last CSM that used his NDA knowledge to make billions was kicked off the CSM (banned i think too) and never allowed to run for CSM again, right?


No one can possibly know that except guilty parties. What you are saying is someone got caught once and got kicked off.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:37:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples;
(The possibility of)
1. Ice being removed from hisec.
2. ABC being removed from Wspace.

Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.


Both help botters and RMT'ers and I'm not surprised a goon endorses it.

Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:50:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Dusty Warrior
However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information has/was/is passed onto CSM cliches that use it against others much like insider trading on world markets.


I don't think anyone is going to deny that CSM members are Eve fanboiz, and not normal players.

Originally by: Dusty Warrior
How fair is it, that a group of people like the CSM, get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all? Really, how fair is it?



You say that like it really means something... I doubt VERY seriously they get any real information, because CCP, as a global business, *NEEDS* to keep qiuet on a number of things. What the CSM hears about is crap that TenTonHammer or other fanboi online magazines already know about.

Personally, I really couldn't care less what they hear about.

Uleai
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:00:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Two step
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.

As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it.

SexxxSlave
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:28:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Uleai
Originally by: Two step
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).

So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.

As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it.



how about staying on topic, you tard?

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 - [88]
 

I agree. So where are those emergency minutes?

Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:49:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Abrazzar on 31/08/2011 16:50:06
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
I agree. So where are those emergency minutes?

In transition.

Vaako Horizon
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:53:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Vaako Horizon on 31/08/2011 17:00:52
...


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