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blankseplocked So...about those *EMERGENCY* CSM Meeting Minutes...
 
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Gaylord Demian
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:57:00 - [31]
 

I think this goes to show how little CCP care about the majority of their clientbase past the initial 3 month stage.

It's awesome that CCP fail at running their own little pet CSM project, least you guys could do is pretend you give a flying ****.

Aus Man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:14:00 - [32]
 

by the time they come out will they be as relevant?
Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?


BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:36:00 - [33]
 

As I said in this thread


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's say CCP calls another emergency meeting of the CSM, or even just a regularly scheduled one.

When they arrive at the confrence room to start the meeting with CEO Hilmar and some Devs, they find out that 'White Tree' missed his flight and won't be making it until the next day. CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' bends down, removes his left shoe as well as his sock and places the sock over his hand. He says to everyone gathered "White Tree is right here and we can begin the meeting."

Now here's the best part....

After the meeting is concluded for the day, 'The Mitani' heads to the bar. He decides that he's going to get '**** faced again in Iceland' and drinks himself into a stupor. The next day, eveyone notices that CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' is missing and the other CSM members don't want to start without him. Hilmar calmly bends down and removes his left shoe and sock. He places the sock over his hand and says "The Mitani is here and we can start the meeting...See, he's a puppet too."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sooner everyone accepts this fact, the quicker we can move on.

You don't 'edit' minutes to a meeting. It defeats the entire purpose and MUCH more importantly, puts into serious question the credibility of what was really said.

If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'


Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:38:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries
by the time they come out will they be as relevant?
Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?




If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed

I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.

As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for?

Dusty Warrior
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:00:00 - [35]
 

Rolling EyesSeriously... not that I really care about what was discussed at the "Emergency CSM/CCP party meeting".

I just wanted to offer up my son's services. He would be more than happy to type up the comic minutes for you all. I mean... I'm sure he'd be able to get it done before winter expansion. Might be tough, but I'm certain with his 4th grade education and a little spare time he'd have it done for you.

Afterall... why not continue to string your customers along. Not like you've not had practice stringing us along. What they do, not what they say attitude must be working well for you guys thus far.

Anywhoo... guess I'll wait for the next BIG EXPANSION. I have a feeling actions will trump any type of spin you and your fanbois might muster after this winter.

Lady Zarrina
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:12:00 - [36]
 

3 months to get the tone of a meeting? This is disgraceful.

They were just hoping and praying that it was over. They realized how close they came to really screwing up. Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also. They got a developer onside (probably promised him a smaller boat) and away they went, Incarna was released. Now this enlightened individual read about facebook. Hey that's a damn fine idea, lets do that, they are going to IPO that company for 100 trazillion bucks. So once again, away they go. The developer did need a pool after all. I know, he's in Iceland, but that don't matter. You know the next release will have the word "cloud" in there somewhere. These guys are just too smart.


They have forget what this game is about, THEY HAVE LOST TOUCH. And I bet there is nothing they can do about it, except make it look like Team BFF will do something in the next 5 years that might directly relate to internet spaceships.

I am willing to bet they have gutted their Eve development teams in hopes of getting their other games out. They seem deathly afraid to touch any actual game code, and this is about the only reason I can think of that makes sense.


And yes I know many will say Incarna rocks, and walking in stations will save eve and allow it to outpace WoW and every other MMO out there. Sorry to say.... but you are wrong. Plain wrong. All CCP cares about with Incarna is they can now hire One art student with a little computer skills for minimum wage and sell crap to idiots.

Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:24:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.


How about you just release the transcription and let the community read the facts, rather than massage and sculpt (ie, alter) them to fit CCP agenda?

This is just ludicrous. I'd like to suggest to the community and potential upcoming CSM candidates that all meetings between CCP and CSM are recorded (or even broadcast) on video by CSM members *OFF* CCP premises... Any bets on whether that would fly?

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:27:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lady Zarrina
Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also.


Who wants to bet this guy plays Star Trek Online and went "if they can do it why cant we?????"

And missed the part where that game is crap

Jul1a
Tycho Magnetic Anomaly
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:03:00 - [39]
 

If it took me a 1/4 of a year to write out the minutes of a critical] public relations meeting where I work I would be fired.

And I work in the public sector where getting fired is almost impossible (unless the Tory government are in power).

When noone cares anymore.. they will be released quietly.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:09:00 - [40]
 

CCP: "But dear players, the CSM minutes have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

US: "Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

CCP: "But the minutes were on display ..."

US: "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

CCP: "That's the display department."

US: "With a flashlight."

CCP: "Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

US: "So had the stairs."

CCP: "But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

US: "Yes I did. They were on 'display' in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:28:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: BuckStrider
As I said in this thread


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's say CCP calls another emergency meeting of the CSM, or even just a regularly scheduled one.

When they arrive at the confrence room to start the meeting with CEO Hilmar and some Devs, they find out that 'White Tree' missed his flight and won't be making it until the next day. CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' bends down, removes his left shoe as well as his sock and places the sock over his hand. He says to everyone gathered "White Tree is right here and we can begin the meeting."

Now here's the best part....

After the meeting is concluded for the day, 'The Mitani' heads to the bar. He decides that he's going to get '**** faced again in Iceland' and drinks himself into a stupor. The next day, eveyone notices that CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' is missing and the other CSM members don't want to start without him. Hilmar calmly bends down and removes his left shoe and sock. He places the sock over his hand and says "The Mitani is here and we can start the meeting...See, he's a puppet too."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sooner everyone accepts this fact, the quicker we can move on.

You don't 'edit' minutes to a meeting. It defeats the entire purpose and MUCH more importantly, puts into serious question the credibility of what was really said.

If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'




The minutes of a meeting are a summary of what tranpires in a meeting, of course they are edited. What you are describing is a transcript.

@OP:
Quote:
first of all, minutes arent NDA. The TRANSCRIPT is.


The minutes are directly affected by the NDA. We will receive an edited version of the minutes that removes any NDA material, while CCP will keep on file the full version for reference.

And to those asking why the meeting can't simply be video recorded or broadcast, the reason is self evident. These meetings often discuss the future direction of the game and the company itself and as such cannot be made available for public consumption.

Enuen Ravenseye
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:37:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.


You're releasing meeting minutes, not a damned novella.

You don't need to include "tone" - the words will do just fine, thanks. I'm pretty sure we can determine the "tone" without your assistance (i.e., CSM = ****ed, CCP = unremorseful).

Tarkin Hamir
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:42:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen


We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.


In any other organisation taking three months to issue notes of even the most controversial meeting would not be regarded as being 'pretty good' - it would, in fact, be regarded as being incompetent or deliberately trying to hide something.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:44:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: BuckStrider
If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'


QFT

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:45:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Tarkin Hamir
deliberately trying to hide something.


is the likely part... well i could be incompetant too though

Resivan
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:59:00 - [46]
 

When you have to hold an emergency meeting because you've messed up you messaging so badly that you're getting mass subscription cancellations and in-game riots that are making the industry press.... When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control that they found the results of the meeting at best minimally acceptable.... When they're posting that as far as they're concerned there was an acceptable draft over a month ago....

It's time to bite the bullet and publish the CSM's latest draft. You aren't going to be able to spin things to make you look good, and stalling only makes you look worse.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:09:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Resivan
When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control



link that

SexxxSlave
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:19:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Resivan
When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control



link that


twitter, failheap, and facebook bro...theyre all posting on non-eve/non-CCP regulated sites about how the meeting minutes have been a point of contention for AT LEAST a month now.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:21:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: SexxxSlave
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Resivan
When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control



link that


twitter, failheap, and facebook bro...theyre all posting on non-eve/non-CCP regulated sites about how the meeting minutes have been a point of contention for AT LEAST a month now.


k, link that bro
Rather not go sifting through all of Twitter/failheap etc to find it

Resivan
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:34:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung

k, link that bro
Rather not go sifting through all of Twitter/failheap etc to find it


If you're too lazy to do your own research, I'm too lazy to do it for you. But I'll give you one link, to a post from Two Step today.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?3534-Status-of-emergency-summit-minutes&p=196348&viewfull=1#post196348

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:46:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 17:47:47
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 17:47:10
Neat quote:
Quote:
Gonna address these two together. Right now, the issue that *all* of the CSM have with the minutes is that CCP made edits that we don't feel reflect what actually happened at the summit. I'm not sure who you would blame for that, basically it is both of us holding up the minutes release at this point.


so its NOT just CCP

hell yes im lazy, im a poster on these forums. Lazy an proud of it.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:34:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Lady Zarrina
3 months to get the tone of a meeting? This is disgraceful.

They were just hoping and praying that it was over. They realized how close they came to really screwing up. Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also. They got a developer onside (probably promised him a smaller boat) and away they went, Incarna was released. Now this enlightened individual read about facebook. Hey that's a damn fine idea, lets do that, they are going to IPO that company for 100 trazillion bucks. So once again, away they go. The developer did need a pool after all. I know, he's in Iceland, but that don't matter. You know the next release will have the word "cloud" in there somewhere. These guys are just too smart.


They have forget what this game is about, THEY HAVE LOST TOUCH. And I bet there is nothing they can do about it, except make it look like Team BFF will do something in the next 5 years that might directly relate to internet spaceships.

I am willing to bet they have gutted their Eve development teams in hopes of getting their other games out. They seem deathly afraid to touch any actual game code, and this is about the only reason I can think of that makes sense.


This. QFT. etc.

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:38:00 - [53]
 

Did you know that if you take the second space out of "democracy in action" you get "democracy inaction"?

That seemed relevant to the discussion somehow.

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:38:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 30/08/2011 18:41:26
You know, if CCP just videoed the whole thing, and redacted anything NDA related, we could all judge the "tone" for ourselves, and this wouldn't really be an issue.

We would be much more capable of accurately judging both CCP and the CSM, and such naked transparency would go a hell of a long way towards restoring customer faith.

...unless CCP reckon that their current policies are certain to make you everyone look like douchebags, in which case such transparency might not help, but a sensible person might then question those policies.

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:44:00 - [55]
 

3 months to redact a document? I'm sorry but that is simply ridiculous, complex and inflammatory topics or not.

Mara Villoso
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:47:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?

Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.

As a professional writer/editor, I can sympathize with the importance of writing well and accurately. However, the obvious solution is to simply print what was said or recorded. Redaction is sufficient for the CIA and others to prevent disclosure of sensitive information. I can't imagine why it wouldn't suffice for you. If you're editing something so stringently that "tone" is being modified, it implies you aren't actually taking minutes, you're writing a story about what happened. Minutes are simply a record of events. Tone, mood, intonation, descriptions of emotion, etc. are irrelevant.

While we're on the topic of written materials that were promised 3 months ago, when will the Devs Answer thread be completed/revisited?

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:50:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries
by the time they come out will they be as relevant?
Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?




If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed

I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.

As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for?


I don't remember what it was developed for but I certainly know what it was developed as a result of.

CCP, I can stick up for your game because it is still fun to play to this day. However, your actions, or lack thereof, really make it a difficult chore. You guys need to quit saying you are going to do **** that you cant do in the time-frame you give.

2.5 months for some minutes is bull**** in anybodies book.

When you said you wanted to have better communications you mgiht as well have said "We don't plan on gold ammo and if you want to know anything deeper than that GTFO."

Because that's exactly what you gave us.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:51:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
Much like the Vice President's Energy Commission meeting of 2001


It is best that the details of the presentation given to the Commission by the Miskatonic University on the power generation potential of the Gate Of Azathoth remain forever obscured...

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:51:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung

so its NOT just CCP


CSM is holding it up BECAUSE CCP is trying to finagle language into the minutes that would make it look like CCP is the knight in shining armor. Trust us here, the CSM wouldnt be disapproving these meeting minutes if they were a 100% true reflection of what happened. CCP is trying to punch up the language to make it look like theyre the helpless victim in this whole ordeal.

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:57:00 - [60]
 

...and another ****storm was born.


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