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SomeoneStrange
Total Grief
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:17:00 - [1]
 

Hey all, I recently managed to get myself into a Falcon, and have a couple questions about ECM which google can't seem to answer.

1. Do jammers have a chance of succeeding on a currently jammed target? As best I can tell, there is no way to "reset" the jam countdown, which means that its possible to waste cycles.

2. If I understand the equation for jamming correctly, it goes like this:

J/S = % chance to jam
J = Jam Strength
S = Ship sensor strength

According to the above equation, if I have a jam strength greater than the sensor strength of a particular ship, I can permajam it with a single ECM module so long as I am within my optimal range. This seems a little on the unfair side, as I could be literally untouchable when fighting most frigates.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 19:16:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 29/08/2011 19:33:24
Originally by: SomeoneStrange
Hey all, I recently managed to get myself into a Falcon, and have a couple questions about ECM which google can't seem to answer.

Congrats on the new recon. I'll try to help as best I'm able.

Originally by: SomeoneStrange
1. Do jammers have a chance of succeeding on a currently jammed target? As best I can tell, there is no way to "reset" the jam countdown, which means that its possible to waste cycles.

I don't think you can extend the jam cycle on an already jammed target by trying to jam them again, no. It's not really something you should be doing in the first place, though, since you're essentially wasting part of the previous cycle. Use your jammer on another target or just wait for the timer to expire.

If anyone else knows this with more certainty, please do correct me.

Originally by: SomeoneStrange
2. If I understand the equation for jamming correctly, it goes like this:

J/S = % chance to jam
J = Jam Strength
S = Ship sensor strength

According to the above equation, if I have a jam strength greater than the sensor strength of a particular ship, I can permajam it with a single ECM module so long as I am within my optimal range. This seems a little on the unfair side, as I could be literally untouchable when fighting most frigates.

You understand the formula correctly. It's simplistic and seems "unfair" at first glance, but ECM basically requires jam strength bonuses to be effective and most of those hulls are made out of paper.

Personally, I'd favor something more akin to the turret damage formula with diminishing returns for higher jam strength. If ECM ships were balanced like this, then they could actually carry some defenses without being absurdly overpowered.

If I were to revise it, I'd probably use something like this -- it imposes an inherent diminishing return on jam quality. Jammer strength and especially ECM drones would probably need to be tweaked though.

Originally by: NotGoingToHappen

ChanceToJam = .75^(S/J)


Old% | 10.0% | 15.0% | 25.0% | 33.0% | 50.0% |
New% | 05.6% | 14.7% | 31.6% | 41.8% | 56.3% |
----------------------------------------------------------|
Old% | 75.0% | 90.0% | 100.% | 150.% | 200.% |
New% | 68.1% | 72.6% | 75.0% | 82.5% | 93.1% |

SomeoneStrange
Total Grief
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:16:00 - [3]
 

Thanks for the reply! It never did occur to me that unless your initial attempt fails, there really is no reason to put more than a single jammer on a target at a time. It's definitely much more efficient than what I've been doing, which is staggering the ECM modules to try and minimize my target's "unjammed" time - though it also probably requires a bit more micromanagement.

I also agree that ECM modules should probably have diminishing returns of some sort, in exchange for a tougher tank, as being one-shotted by most arty battleships is not exactly combat-friendly.

Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 04:41:00 - [4]
 

Falcon 101

-Check out the T2 ECM rigs, they are really affordable.

-Range and ECM are your tank. I typically only fit a LSE and a DC to give enough buffer to survive a few shots or gate guns for a bit.

-Fit for the fight if you know what you need. Otherwise, avoid multispecs. I normally prefer rainbow with 2x caldari. I go with the 2x caldari for counter-ecm and drake blob.

-The background color of the ship icon matches the color of your ECM mod. Blue for caldari, gold for amarr, red for minnie, teal for gallente. Always keep the ECM mods on the correct race!

-With recon 5, you can fit an expanded probe launcher! It's very handy.

Basic Tactic:

Stay at range. You should have at least 70km opt, so hang around out there.

If you are warping to the targets, warp at range. During the warp, make a pounce BM as close as possible to the celestial you are in warp to. You can use this as your align out and warp point should you come under serious fire. The closer the pounce the better (but off grid) since it will allow you to get back to the fight faster.

When in position on grid, stay cloaked. Once the fight begins, stay cloaked till the enemy starts shooting. There are occasions when it is required to decloak immediately, but generally you will want to stay cloaked a few seconds to allow the enemy FC to call a primary other than yourself. As an ECM boat, you will be a prime target once someone notices that you are on field.

After you decloak, start jamming. You will want to jam any force multipliers first, especially enemy ECM. If you are on a gate or station, you should never jam the primary. You don't want them to be able to jump through the gate should the fleet bail. Otherwise, focus on logistics, tackle, and DPS boats. Avoid jamming junk T1 cruisers and the like if there are better targets. Always match the ECM to the correct race, unless you REALLY need to jam a single target.

Should someone attack you, stay calm. Evaluate what is close to you. The only ships you need to really be concerned with are interceptors, drams, and anything especially fast that could close range and point you. Recons with a tackle bonus and Proteuses are also in this group. If it is only a single frigate coming to tackle you, don't warp off. Lock him up, but continue jamming targets of value. Should you need to warp off later, you should have no problems jamming a single frigate of any type.

Stay aligned to you pounce BM during the fight. Should you need to warp off, warp to the pounce. If it is less than 1AU away, it should take you about a minute to rejoin the fight.

Good luck!


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:02:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 30/08/2011 09:02:54
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot
Check out the T2 ECM rigs, they are really affordable.

Absolutely. Cannot emphasize this enough. T2 rigs are a great way to get past stacking penalties, and the Falcon only has two rig slots anyway, so you're not wasting calibration.

Quote:
Range and ECM are your tank. I typically only fit a LSE and a DC to give enough buffer to survive a few shots or gate guns for a bit.

Not that I disagree with the shield fitting, but I find a 1600mm plate to be very tempting on this ship. It literally adds 150% to your EHP and isn't penalized by the particle dispersion rigs. The loss of agility kinda stings, though.

Quote:
Otherwise, avoid multispecs. I normally prefer rainbow with 2x caldari. I go with the 2x caldari for counter-ecm and drake blob.

No argument here. Caldari have the strongest sensor strength, so having two of them is never a bad thing.

Quote:
With recon 5, you can fit an expanded probe launcher! It's very handy.

True. You can even fit a covert cyno with it, if that's your thing.

Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Aamrr

Not that I disagree with the shield fitting, but I find a 1600mm plate to be very tempting on this ship. It literally adds 150% to your EHP and isn't penalized by the particle dispersion rigs. The loss of agility kinda stings, though.



True, I used to use the 1600m fit when running in armor gangs with logi, but it was the crap agility that made me go back to the shield fit. I found that "tanking" in a falcon is sort of laughable even with logi, and that the best tactic for maximizing "time on field" was the pounce bm and warping back and forth.

I also end up doubling as a scout quite often when flying the falcon. The agility is really needed for that to be able to stay ahead of fleets and get warp-ins when cloaked.

And good point on the covert cyno! I had forgotten about those.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:35:00 - [7]
 

*nods* Thanks for the advice. To be honest, the tank is really only there because of sentry guns. You need enough buffer to let the logistics do their job and that's about it.

The armor fitting does get an extra midslot, though. I'm just not sure what to put in it. More ECM? ECCM? Sensor booster?

Decisions...

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:37:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Karl Planck on 30/08/2011 15:38:53
Your formula is wrong

1 - (1-(J/S))^N

where N is the number of jammers.

This only works for jammers of the same racial being stacked. If you are not using the same jammers then

1 - ((1-(J1/S)^N1)*((1-(J2/S)^N2)*....((1-(Jn/S)^Nn)

Where Jn is the nth jammer type and Nn corresponds to however many jammers you are applying of that kind. This equation of course does not pull into account falloff, which works for jammers just as it does for guns.

In simple terms, yes, there will be many targets (especially in a falcon) that will never ever have a chance to lock you unless they pull range (hahaha matar). However, a single ship with a ECCM will usually remove this from being 100% to just very likely that you will jam them. Apply the maths and you will see what I mean.

*Edit for clarity


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:49:00 - [9]
 

I am quite aware what the formula is. I was proposing a different one.


 

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