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Merbusent
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:59:00 - [1]
 

I've noticed on the other carrier thread here that self susficient setups are prefered more arguably, back a few years I asked to try a simular setup with tempests.. two high capacitor transfers and large shield boosters and that worked.

How is there they've not been taken into account in setups especially in gangs?

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 16:58:00 - [2]
 

Like any ship in Eve, carriers can be generalist or highly specialized. Specialized fits get superior performance in their particular niche, but are vulnerable without proper support. With only two types of (normal) capital ships available, carriers are often asked to fill a lot of roles. Because of that, you see a lot of "generalist" fits -- local tank, energy neutralizers, smartbombs...a little bit of everything.

A while back, there was a discussion on the effectiveness of drone control units. Telvani gave a nice "taxonomy" for carrier fittings. You can find the thread here.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:39:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Like any ship in Eve, carriers can be generalist or highly specialized. Specialized fits get superior performance in their particular niche, but are vulnerable without proper support. With only two types of (normal) capital ships available, carriers are often asked to fill a lot of roles. Because of that, you see a lot of "generalist" fits -- local tank, energy neutralizers, smartbombs...a little bit of everything.

A while back, there was a discussion on the effectiveness of drone control units. Telvani gave a nice "taxonomy" for carrier fittings. You can find the thread here.


Actually most carrier pilots just fit to role. Usually you have 3 general fits. Combat,Triage,Travel and then switch between them.

Travel is setup of course for decent cap regen.

Triage is for repping structures.


Both fits are pretty cookiecutter across the board.

Combat is more diverse. Your tank really depends on who you fly with and what your doing. Sometimes spider tanking is done and sometime you need a local tank. It can also be situational within the alliance/corp your in. Usually local tank is only used solo and maybe in very small groups. Otherwise its better to swap local repper for resist to make it easier to spider.


You can go ahead and add a 4th fit here which is solo carebear fit since this has become really common the last couple years. This would be your self sufficient fit.



Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:17:00 - [4]
 

Fine then. It's a taxonomy of what you refer to as "combat" carriers. Obviously, triage is a very specific fit demanding a particular set of modules without much choice or variation. At most, you might have see an extra hardener or damage control depending on whether gang links are present or not.

The non-triage fits were what I was attempting to describe, and these vary along a spectrum from full self-sufficiency (local tank, smartbombs, energy neuts) to intensely-specialized (five homogenous high-slot remote assistance modules with dedicated rig support and associated implants).

"Solo carebear fits" really don't need to be discussed. You could fit a hangar full of random capital mods, hit "ctrl+a" and drag them into your fitting window. Chances are, you'd get something that'd work. Rolling Eyes

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.29 19:06:00 - [5]
 

It mostly comes down to how good your alliance is, and what the purpose of a given carrier fleet is. Carrier energy/repair spiders can be awesome, but they require competent carrier pilots and competent fleet commanders, and coordination in fittings. My experience as an observer -- this character will not get into a carrier until the middle of next year at the earliest -- has been that most carrier pilots will, if left to their own devices, simply slap on a cookie-cutter remote repair fit, and have to be forced to change to a different fit.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 19:44:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
most carrier pilots will, if left to their own devices, simply slap on a cookie-cutter remote repair fit, and have to be forced to change to a different fit.


I suppose it's just like they say: People will rise -- or fall -- to whatever expectations you set for them.

Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Apex United
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:39:00 - [7]
 

Another thing to keep in mind is that capital energy transfer isn't as good as capital energy transfer on logistics ships. On a basilisk or guardian with logi 5, you can run every highslot energy module with just one incoming cap transfer, without needing any rigs to reduce cap usage of those modules. However, if you are trying to run it on regular ships, or on capital ships, it works, but isn't very efficient. Of course, you can always put on rigs to change that, but then you are specializing your ship into that role, and unless you either have multiple carriers, or you are ok with swapping out rigs every time you change what you are doing, they aren't very efficient. It is hard to take a ship that is rigged for cap transfer and swap it to a travel fit, etc. That being said, if you can afford to put the carrier into a dedicated role like that, things change (alot) and it becomes very viable.

-Arazel

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:42:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 29/08/2011 21:43:51
A perfectly skilled Guardian spends 63.4 GJ to send someone 324 GJ every 5 seconds, a net effect of 52.12 GJ/s.

A perfectly skilled Archon spends 1350 GJ to send someone 2000 GJ every 10 seconds, a net effect of 65 GJ/s.

I think the Archon is better at capacitor generation.(Yes, I realize the Archon needs to spend more capacitor. I'm just being difficult because it's 00:43 and I'm bored.)

Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Apex United
Posted - 2011.08.29 22:03:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Edited by: Aamrr on 29/08/2011 21:43:51
A perfectly skilled Guardian spends 63.4 GJ to send someone 324 GJ every 5 seconds, a net effect of 52.12 GJ/s.

A perfectly skilled Archon spends 1350 GJ to send someone 2000 GJ every 10 seconds, a net effect of 65 GJ/s.

I think the Archon is better at capacitor generation.(Yes, I realize the Archon needs to spend more capacitor. I'm just being difficult because it's 00:43 and I'm bored.)


A perfectly skilled archon spends 759 cap (151.9/s) to run 1 capital remote armor rep. A perfectly skilled guardian spends 47.25 cap (9.4/s) to run a solace remote armor rep. Running 4 reps and 2 cap, a guardian has -69.4 cap/s, and gains +88.9cap/s from one incoming cap transfer. An archon gains +200cap/s per cap transfer, for a net gain of 65cap/s when running energy transfer between 2 perfectly skilled archons. That means that 3 incoming cap transfers gives enough cap to run 1 remote repair system "free". This is more what I had been referring to when I spoke of the differences.

That being said, you can go ahead and fit up 2 archons with 2 energy transfers and 3 armor transfers, and still keep it capstable with 3 rigs, 4 rechargers and 2 relays. But, if instead you take 2 archons and rig them to reduce energy transfer cost, then up to 8 more archon's fit for reduce armor transfer cost, you can get a "pantheon" fleet going. But this only really makes sense with "large" fleets... with me referring to a large fleet as something that has 10+ carriers supporting all the subcap ships. But again, in this case you are using ships that have been specifically rigged for that purpose, and have to be re-rigged, not just refitted when repurposing them to a different role.

-Arazel

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 22:17:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 29/08/2011 22:22:02
I'm quite familiar with Pantheon fleets, thank you. And while the CRARs certainly cost more capacitor to run, I think you might be neglecting the fact that they repair quite a bit more than their large counterparts. Laughing

Also, you may want to reexamine the dual-transfer/triple-rep setup you've described. You don't need that much local cap recharge, and you certainly don't need to sacrifice any low slots.

Four cap rechargers are sufficient to make the ship stable, even with only CEES 4 and CRARS 4. With perfect skills, you can get about 42 minutes with two cap rechargers. A pair of 4% capacitor implants will make it stable. Low-grade talisman sets would improve that figure still further.

Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
Posted - 2011.08.30 06:30:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Telvani on 30/08/2011 06:32:31
I've only skim read so I hope I'm not about to cover something aamrr has already covered.

[Archon, Pantheon - Cap]
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor EM Hardener II

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Cap Recharger II - In no way essential, can easily be a point / web / anything
Speculative Ship Identifier I
Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array

Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I

Large Egress Port Maximizer II
Large Egress Port Maximizer II
Large Egress Port Maximizer I

[Archon, Pantheon - RR]
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Cap Recharger II - In no way essential, just left open can be point / web / anything
Cap Recharger II - - In no way essential, just left open can be point / web / anything
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I

Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I


Now with LG talismans that first fit will produce enough cap to run its parter and 1.5 (or more) RR archons. So a pair of cap production archons can run 3 RR archons with plenty of neutraliser resistance (this cap production is completely independent of capacitor levels)

So this means a group of 5 archons can tank roughly 50k DPS before heat, which is roughly equal to 10 SCs or 15 dreads or 50 carriers / BS. It scales much better than other fits as well because the capacitor is so easy to move around the fleet

The obvious limitation of the fleet is its inability to survive losses on a small scale. In a fleet where all ships are fit similarly you only lose 1/n (where n is the number of ships) effectiveness so 20% for a 5 man fleet. With just 5 carriers in this group losses 33% of the rep if an armour carrier goes down or all of the rep if a capacitor carrier goes down. As such I would advise it to be used with a minimum of 3 capacitor carriers and 4 armour.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 08:42:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 30/08/2011 09:30:14
Looks good Telvani. Take a look at high-grade Talismans, though. Specifically, check to see their effect on the armor rep configuration. I think you'll like the result.

(You can get a pantheon-repper stable on one transfer. Very neat.)

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:38:00 - [13]
 

There are a few fits but they are typically pretty specialized. You have PvE and hotdrop gank fits with DCU's and little or no RR/neuts/smartbombs or other support stuff. You have triage fits which due to the limitations of triage, absolutely must be cap sufficient and have a solid local tank in addition to their RR, that said the bonuses of triage make that pretty easy to do. And then you have pantheon fits, which are non-triage RR carriers in the vein of the fleet domi. Those have a mix of neuts, smartbombs, cap tranfers, RR and typically no local reps. So yeah, that's basically three carrier layouts, there is a small amount of variation within them but not a whole lot. You also have some rainbow fits out there, but those are typically made by players who are completely clueless on ship fittings at any class. So I don't typically count them. I will say that if you have a triage mod and DCU's at the same time, you're doing it wrong.Laughing

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:40:00 - [14]
 

I've seen ratting carriers with triage modules fit. If they got hotdropped, they'd activate triage until help could arrive.

I don't think it's a particularly good idea, but I have seen DCUs and triage mixed before.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:52:00 - [15]
 

So have I and I understand the logic, I still think it smacks of fail however. I've never seen it help but I've seen it make things worse a few times. My view on it is if you fit a triage mod, you had damn well be using a full fledged triage fit. That mod is not something you want to be messing with halfheartedly.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:06:00 - [16]
 

I think the implication was that, high slots aside, it would be a full triage fit.

We are in agreement, though. Better to use a dedicated ratting fit and make more money before your inevitable demise.

Effortless Breeze
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.08.31 00:35:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
So have I and I understand the logic, I still think it smacks of fail however. I've never seen it help but I've seen it make things worse a few times. My view on it is if you fit a triage mod, you had damn well be using a full fledged triage fit. That mod is not something you want to be messing with halfheartedly.


I think the idea for fitting Triage on PvE carriers is to tank just long enough to self destruct if you get caught

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.31 01:26:00 - [18]
 

T2 rigs? On a combat heavy carrier? No.

Imp navy EANMs though? Yes.

Dedicated cap xfer carriers? Yes.

Dedicated RAR carrier? No.

These days carriers are just a support ship, an upgraded logistics. They exist purely to recap SCs and to provide the odd armour rep when needed, but that is rare (but still relevent).

You would use dedicated rar carriers in big fleet fights if the SCs are unable to pantheon it and need a top up.

But i think the days of triage combat carriers or pantheon carriers are over. Even though they can spider tank a tonne of DPS, all it takes is a cyno and 10 Scs and its all over.

Also, i would never use a talisman set or any set for that matter in a combat carrier. If they cost 2 bil or more, thats 3 or 4 carriers you can have as spare backups. The odd hardwires though are nice.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.31 01:54:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Also, i would never use a talisman set or any set for that matter in a combat carrier. If they cost 2 bil or more, thats 3 or 4 carriers you can have as spare backups. The odd hardwires though are nice.


The fundamental unit of a fleet isn't isk. It's pilots. Just because you could purchase another carrier doesn't mean you have the pilots to fly it.

I likegirls
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 01:59:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Effortless Breeze
Originally by: King Rothgar
So have I and I understand the logic, I still think it smacks of fail however. I've never seen it help but I've seen it make things worse a few times. My view on it is if you fit a triage mod, you had damn well be using a full fledged triage fit. That mod is not something you want to be messing with halfheartedly.


I think the idea for fitting Triage on PvE carriers is to tank just long enough to self destruct if you get caught


Triage carriers are used in high class wormholes for the RR.

Most PVE carriers can self destruct before getting popped. Triage module can help in extending time to self destruct or for surviving until backup saves them.

Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:22:00 - [21]
 

IB4 someone who has no clue about capital combat...oh wai-

Originally by: Headerman
T2 rigs? On a combat heavy carrier? No.


What is it with eve players and their ignorance of T2 rigs, there are plenty of T2 rigs that are cheaper than other T1. If these were T2 trimarks you have a point but T2 egress are cheap and make the fit effective.


Originally by: Headerman
Imp navy EANMs though? Yes.


Cost more than Egress IIs....

Originally by: Headerman
Dedicated cap xfer carriers? Yes.

Dedicated RAR carrier? No.


So what are they supposed to power? last time I checked smartbombs don't need that much cap

Originally by: Headerman
These days carriers are just a support ship, an upgraded logistics. They exist purely to recap SCs and to provide the odd armour rep when needed, but that is rare (but still relevent).

You would use dedicated rar carriers in big fleet fights if the SCs are unable to pantheon it and need a top up.

But i think the days of triage combat carriers or pantheon carriers are over. Even though they can spider tank a tonne of DPS, all it takes is a cyno and 10 Scs and its all over.


CCP if you do not nerf SCs soon you will have an entire population like this, incapable of any tactical thinking other than 'bring moar supaz'

A fleet is far more efficient if the carriers are dedicated RR / cap and the supers fill ancillary roles like SBing and light neuting even.


Originally by: Headerman
Also, i would never use a talisman set or any set for that matter in a combat carrier. If they cost 2 bil or more, thats 3 or 4 carriers you can have as spare backups. The odd hardwires though are nice.


You really have no clue do you? I can't be bothered to argue with you here but i'm quoting it so you cant delete it when you realise a LG talisman set costs about the same as some high end hardwires.


Although SCs do a lot to make carriers seem redundant they really are not in a logistics role and once CCP nerf supers and people have to start thinking again it will be the ones who can fit and use carriers effectively that'll be doing better, not who brings more nyx.



Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:25:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 31/08/2011 13:30:42
It's not a lost cause yet. There's still a few groups doing some truly amazing feats with normal capitals. Rooks & Kings put up a great battle report recently. You can find it here.

You'll certainly hear no tears from me when supercapitals get their well-deserved nerf, though.

Edit: Broken link.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
So have I and I understand the logic, I still think it smacks of fail however. I've never seen it help but I've seen it make things worse a few times. My view on it is if you fit a triage mod, you had damn well be using a full fledged triage fit. That mod is not something you want to be messing with halfheartedly.

I have. A while ago, I think it was in Delve, we had a ratting carrier get hotdropped by a Nyx and a few sub cap support ships. He triaged and had an alt grab a HIC from his SMA and got the Nyx tackled while pinging IRC, shortly afterwards our own supers and carriers started comming in. The Nyx got out unfortunately since additional tackle was a few seconds too late, but the carrier survived in very low armour.
You have 5 high slots, and even if you're ratting, you probably don't have advanced drone interfacing maxed so you can fill them all with DCUs.
Now that isn't me saying that you should have triage on PVE carriers or anything, I don't mission/rat at all so I'll keep out of that area.

Quote:
But i think the days of triage combat carriers or pantheon carriers are over. Even though they can spider tank a tonne of DPS, all it takes is a cyno and 10 Scs and its all over.

So the question then is, do we think that the enemy has those SCs available and would dare to escalate, and if so, do we have the ability to escalate aswell?
They're not dead.

Pink Marshmellow
Posted - 2011.09.03 01:41:00 - [24]
 

Pantheon/Triage Carriers and Dreadnoughts are pretty much the king of High Class Wormholes due to there being no Supers.


 

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