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blankseplocked [Issue] Margin trading scam fix
 
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Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:14:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Milen Sarn on 29/08/2011 11:17:00
Preamble:
Originally by: Kesshisan
Edited by: Kesshisan on 27/08/2011 19:20:00
There is a skill called Margin Trading which permits you to setup a buy order without you needing to have 100% of the isk immediately. This has a legitimate purpose for a trader who moves a lot of product and is setting up a 90 day buy order for an item.

However, it also has a nice side affect to "scam" people.

On alt #1 Setup a sell order for an item that you are looking to work with.
On alt #2 Setup a buy order for an item WAY overpriced with a minimum quantity of like 100 or 200.
Once you setup the buy order, quickly transfer all of your isk off of alt #2.

Now you have a buy order you cannot fill. The idea here is to lure someone into buying all of your items and then when your victim tries to sell the items to your buy order to make a quick profit they suddenly find themselves unable to get rid of the product.

You get isk from the buy order. They get a bunch of stuff they can't sell without taking a loss.


There were lots of tears and game-breaking solutions for last years - like negative wallet ballance or even skill removal. But i belive that i've found simly solution that makes everyone happy, almost:

When placing a buy order and setting up minimum quantity of buying items, you must invest isk for that quantity in market, regardless of margin trading skill level.
This will not affect usual traders and will be much more realistic in compare to rl market. There still will be ability to scam, but it'll be less profitable and more risky like it should be.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:28:00 - [2]
 

Or you could do nothing since this scam is so easy to spot it is not even funny.

Well it is funny when people fall for it. In fact, it is hilarious.

Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:11:00 - [3]
 

Yeah personally i like that scams are as common in eve as in rl. But i belive that when risks vs rewards are equal zero then something is broken.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:30:00 - [4]
 

Scamming is always a "0 risk" endeavor. What exactly do you mean by saying scamming is broken?

Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 14:29:00 - [5]
 

You're trying to play with words which i didn't say - it's not worth my time. Also scamming isn't always 0 risk endeavor, but again this discussion is not about this topic. There's exploitable game mechanics in the market and this topic is about it's fixing.

grazer gin
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:18:00 - [6]
 

Im sorry but scamming is legal in eve wittle pubby so how can you fix something that isnt broken

Oh and if you are stupid enough to fall for this con you deserve to loose your money as you are two things

1. STUPID for falling for something that is way WAY too good to be true didnt anyone ever tell you if it looks like that it is (no there is no probably)

2. GREEDY you saw how much you could make and without thinking or double checking you took it i dont think about what im buying sometimes and ended up with a 888million isk bestower but you dont see me coming on the forums and crying about it.

TIPS

This is for you and any other incompetent pubby that wants this removed or gets scammed by it

THINK next time

Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:30:00 - [7]
 

Lol, thank you captain obvious!
Next time try to read before post, this is not that hard. For those who can't tl;dr version is in bold.
And no, i wasn't scammed that way.

grazer gin
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:26:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Milen Sarn
Lol, thank you captain obvious!
Next time try to read before post, this is not that hard. For those who can't tl;dr version is in bold.
And no, i wasn't scammed that way.


SURE you wernt poppet

PLEASE CRY SOME MORE

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:34:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 29/08/2011 17:36:24
Wouldn't work if you want to legitimately use MT to place a buy order for a single unit of something for a high price.

The obvious (but not so easy to implement) fix would be to temporarily remove an order if selling the minimum quantity would fail. This should be done as soon as the buyer's wallet drops below the price of the minimum quantity, not when someone actually tries to fill the order. The order could potentially be listed again automatically when the buyer gets enough ISK again.

Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 29/08/2011 17:36:24
Wouldn't work if you want to legitimately use MT to place a buy order for a single unit of something for a high price.


Why not? In this case you just need to have isk for setting this buy order. In my proposal setting a buy order without actual ability to buy at least its minimum quantity(one item in your example) is impossible.
Also i don't get why someone will set a buy order just for one item without intention and ability to buy it. And this should not be allowed by game mechanics.

Your solution is good too.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 29/08/2011 18:46:59
Margin trading exists so that you can set up buy orders for numerous items without having the isk to pay for all of them right at that moment.

Imagine this -- you're setting up buy orders for your next 3 month's stock of LP store tags. You don't need them now, or even soon -- you've got an adequate stock. You just want to be able to grab the steady trickle of people that are too lazy to put their tags up on sell orders.

Because you don't want to have to set up new market orders every 2 weeks, you put in large orders. If the order is satisfied immediately, cool. If not, whatever. That's why you set the expiration at 90 days.

Now suppose that you're doing this for a wide variety of tags (or, indeed, any item. Ammunition comes to mind). You don't have the money to purchase all of it right now, even at the buy order price -- but you're reasonably certain that at the rate they sell at, you'll have enough to pay for it over time. If not, oh well -- that's why the buy order fails when someone's wallet is empty. They'll get more money later.

That is why margin trading is useful. Your proposal breaks this.

Edit: And this is why people want to market orders to query people's wallets to see if there's adequate isk to fill the order. However, this wouldn't even stop the scams -- it'd just mean that the person would have to be at the keyboard to transfer the funds once the sucker swallowed the bait. And to be honest, you don't even need margin trading to accomplish that -- you can just cancel the buy order.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.29 20:33:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 29/08/2011 20:33:53
Originally by: Aamrr
However, this wouldn't even stop the scams -- it'd just mean that the person would have to be at the keyboard to transfer the funds once the sucker swallowed the bait. And to be honest, you don't even need margin trading to accomplish that -- you can just cancel the buy order.

But you then run the risk of someone acquiring the items you are "buying" from somewhere else (or perhaps having them stockpiled, so "buy out the entire universe" doesn't work either), and filling your buy order without buying your stock.

Alu Utukku
Posted - 2011.08.29 20:48:00 - [13]
 

a little more realistic is that the amount of isk taken in escrow to fufill minimum margin requirements is either forfeit as a market fine, or used to the maximum available to fulfill the pending order.

the fact that the market order simply breaks without any loss in escrow other than a prepaid broker fee is the broken bit.

i have yet to meet a real life counterparty using margins for any commodity that would simply allow you to keep the money already in escrow without a series of fees or fines for obviously attempting fraud, if not outright ejection from the counterparty system.


Milen Sarn
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:18:00 - [14]
 

To Aamrr: certainly i understand how helpfull this skill is, and that's why i don't want to break something with it's fixing. Maybe i don't understand your point because of my low english skills but i don't see how my proposal may break your scheme. You're still able to set any number of buy orders you want for any number of items and margin trading skill will work for them as intended. The only change is: if you want to set the minimum amount of items for purchase at once in your buy order then you need at least have isk for that quantity, that's all.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.30 04:51:00 - [15]
 

nothing broken with margin trading, learn what an item is really worth before investing in it, cause that is what ur doing when u buy something to resell, ur investing in an item, and hoping to make profit, some investments dont work

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 05:17:00 - [16]
 

Why fix what isn't broken? Confused


 

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