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Macks Artilius
Posted - 2011.08.29 02:49:00 - [1]
 

Using evemon, i've figured out that training for either will take me about 50 days, including the time to get the appropriate T2 weapons for them. Which should I go for?

I'm leaning towards the Tengu as it will take slightly less time to train, and can do basically anything. My only concern is the SP loss if I lose it, although for that reason I would probably only use it in level 4's for a bit.

Thoughts?

Ben Dourion
Posted - 2011.08.29 09:35:00 - [2]
 

If you do missions for matari republic and fight a lot of angels, go for matari ships like maelstrom with bs4 and large proj guns 4 then train for a vargur , its way better than a tengu

if you do mission for caldari and fight gurista , I would not use a marauder as they have low sensor strenght and you will be perma jammed , use a tengu instead

IF you plan to do other things than missions, like pvp, I would go for matari as well. they have decent bs , capless weapons and be used in a lot of different ways.

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:58:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Macks Artilius
My only concern is the SP loss if I lose it


If that's your only worry, don't worry about it. The subsystems skills are tier 1 skills, so even if you loose the 5th lvl of one of them, that's still only 4-5d of training to re-train it. And it's hard to loose a Tengu to rats unless you're being really stupid.

That said, both ships have their own pros and cons, what is best for you really depends on what you're going to be doing with it.

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.08.29 19:27:00 - [4]
 

which ever you would use more. YARRRR!!

tl;dr both

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.30 07:34:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: pussnheels on 30/08/2011 07:37:22
I say go for a battleship pref a maelstrom first and later a tengu once you are used to running lvl 4 missions
Reason for my choice
a tengu is a great t3cruiser probably the best ... Tho i still prefer the legion......
But it is very vulnerable to scramming/ webbing frigate combinations since your main tank is is your speed combined with a good shield booster, once the webbing frigates get you you lose your main tank and even with a good shieldbooster they will fry you. In less than 10 seconds
On my caldari pilot account that is how i lost my first tengu.. And only. Tengu till now...
A maelstrom on the other hand has a greatshield tank thanks to its bonus and still have enough midslots for resists andeven a ab
Andmore than enough lowslots to make both a autoccannon or a artillery mael a killer machine
If you go for the autocannon you will need a afterburner for those pesky 50 km orbitting battleships
you will also need atleast t2 drones to get those pesky frigates

So my cchoice. Go for the maelstrom first , even cheaper buying and fitting one then a tengu
tengu. Or any t3 are fun to fly but they not the answer to all your problems

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.30 07:44:00 - [6]
 

Forgot one thing you can use that maelstrom in all empire space doesn t matter ifyouare fighting angels, serpentis , guristas sansha or blood raiders the mael performance will be the same
While i found out that a tengu doesn t do so well against sansha and blood raiders , since large part of the tengu damage comes from the kinetic damage bonus for its heavy missiles

Jak Silverheart
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.30 10:58:00 - [7]
 

Minmatar BS if you want to eventually get best ISK/H with using a Mach latter down the line

Tengu for ease of use and very good ISK/H, as missiles don't need tracking or any of that fun stuff you need to take into account.

Captain Nares
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:59:00 - [8]
 

Hisec PvE: Tengu.
PvP: are you sure that you can afford loosing Tengus?

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:06:00 - [9]
 

question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.

Macks Artilius
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:18:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Daniel Plain
question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.


Loki would be a lot quicker to train as I already have T2 medium guns, and most of the minmatar ship skills needed (minus cruisers V). Consensus seems to be that the Loki is just not as good as the Tengu for PVE, mostly because it lacks range and has to chase its targets, wheras the tengu can just sit still (or kite) and unload.

I figure a T3 is going to be a lot of training whichever one I choose, so I might as well choose the "best" one. If someone can convince me a Loki is going to be just as good as a Tengu for PVE then sure, but that's not an opinion I hear very often...

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.31 04:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: pussnheels
While i found out that a tengu doesn t do so well against sansha and blood raiders , since large part of the tengu damage comes from the kinetic damage bonus for its heavy missiles


tengu you can compensate for non-kinetic ammo's by running the 5% damage implant (or 3 if cheap). Helps a bit for non scourge missiles (get some help with some enemies using the ammo they are weak to) and adds even more to the scourge dps (I see gurista or serp, very happy lol). I found it a worthwhile lp turn in anyway on my tengu pilot.


Some non techincal consideratiosn...do you like bs pve op? Major factor to my tengu path choice was I jsut don't like bs'. Lots of time in them, just not my scene. CTA...I am there and suck it up. My free time, nah.... Have yet to try mach which I can fly passable...if ever get the urge to blow fun money to buy and fit it proper might give her a go. Its not a slow ass turd...why I may try it out one day.


Loki....no experience with the ship but by many accounts sleipnir is way better. More dps, cheaper costs and no sp lost in blow ups. Rip out the uber pve fit, chuck on a t2 for pvp ops, and its not a billion dollar blow up if lost.

Loki vs' tengu. Optimals and falloff...tengu does not have. Guns are instant damage and fast....have to get in range first though. Pick your poison there. Me, I see a known web frigate in the room at 90km's and its target, fire and dead way before he webs. Webs and t3....they don't get along well lol.

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.31 07:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nezumiiro Noneko
Originally by: pussnheels
While i found out that a tengu doesn t do so well against sansha and blood raiders , since large part of the tengu damage comes from the kinetic damage bonus for its heavy missiles


tengu you can compensate for non-kinetic ammo's by running the 5% damage implant (or 3 if cheap). Helps a bit for non scourge missiles (get some help with some enemies using the ammo they are weak to) and adds even more to the scourge dps (I see gurista or serp, very happy lol). I found it a worthwhile lp turn in anyway on my tengu pilot.


Some non techincal consideratiosn...do you like bs pve op? Major factor to my tengu path choice was I jsut don't like bs'. Lots of time in them, just not my scene. CTA...I am there and suck it up. My free time, nah.... Have yet to try mach which I can fly passable...if ever get the urge to blow fun money to buy and fit it proper might give her a go. Its not a slow ass turd...why I may try it out one day.


Loki....no experience with the ship but by many accounts sleipnir is way better. More dps, cheaper costs and no sp lost in blow ups. Rip out the uber pve fit, chuck on a t2 for pvp ops, and its not a billion dollar blow up if lost.

Loki vs' tengu. Optimals and falloff...tengu does not have. Guns are instant damage and fast....have to get in range first though. Pick your poison there. Me, I see a known web frigate in the room at 90km's and its target, fire and dead way before he webs. Webs and

t3....they don't get along well lol.


Indeed a goodpoint you made you can compensate with implants
But stillwhile the tengu still does well versus bloods andsansha itdoes the mission slower compared fighting versus guristas and serpentis or even angels
I already fly the legion with this character and it is the same minor issue when. I fight guristas or angels with my legion, while it still does it jobs marvelous it takes much longer
And the only t3 i still have to try out is the loki it is sheduled for training on another account and to behonest i am looking forward to it

Captain Nares
Posted - 2011.08.31 10:33:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Daniel Plain
question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.

Do you understand the difference between Loki's 610 dps at 2km optimal + 30km faloff + five stupid drones and Tengu's 790 dps at 110km?

Zoe Ardent
Posted - 2011.08.31 10:34:00 - [14]
 

I'd go for Minmatar BS.

Tengu has too many downsides for missioning: low dps against sanshas/blood raiders, vulnerability against webifier frigates and loss of dps due to NPC defender missiles spam.

Captain Nares
Posted - 2011.08.31 10:39:00 - [15]
 

Tengu does majority of L4 missions faster than any faction BS or marauder. Without dependence on NPC's type. If you don't fit CCC x3 and other garbage on it ofc.

The only its vulnerability is vulnerability to suicide gank, 1-3 apocs is enough for mission tengu.

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:40:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Captain Nares
Originally by: Daniel Plain
question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.

Do you understand the difference between Loki's 610 dps at 2km optimal + 30km faloff + five stupid drones and Tengu's 790 dps at 110km?


I think it is personal taste ,missions are already relative easy once you know what you are doing, fitting wise and know your missions
Some people love flying tengus and spam missiles other prefer taking the fight close and personal

In the end the rsult is the same , and we end up a bit richer in iskies

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Captain Nares
Originally by: Daniel Plain
question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.

Do you understand the difference between Loki's 610 dps at 2km optimal + 30km faloff + five stupid drones and Tengu's 790 dps at 110km?


firstly, a set of light drones with perfect skills gives you about 100 dps. plus, you can switch to ecm, web or w/e if you need them.
secondly, my eftcraft could not produce a tengu with more than 677 (kinetic) dps unless you use faction mods and/or implants, in which case the loki could also break 700dps easily and still do omni dmg.
thirdly, with a 140m sig and going over 700m/s, you can probably mitigate about as much damage as the tengu does while kiting
and lastly, even with rigs and implants, tengu dps go down signifficantly against small, fast targets whereas the loki still does almost full damage.

so while range is indeed still an isue, all other aspects actually favor the loki imo.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: pussnheels

I think it is personal taste ,missions are already relative easy once you know what you are doing, fitting wise and know your missions
Some people love flying tengus and spam missiles other prefer taking the fight close and personal

In the end the rsult is the same , and we end up a bit richer in iskies


For the most part, when people on this forum discuss the "right way" of PvEing, they are not talking about fun or activity or even afk-ness. It's a straight up measure of isk/h because they don't actually enjoy missioning for it's own sake; it's a means to an end.

Navaris Dreadblade
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:18:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Daniel Plain
...

unless you use faction mods and/or implants

...

so while range is indeed still an isue, all other aspects actually favor the loki imo.



Range is vitally important for level 4s. Also, why would you not use faction mods? Tengu for me is 761 Kinetic DPS with no implants. I don't think the Loki comes close even before you consider range.

Jubal Vanse
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:31:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Macks Artilius
Originally by: Daniel Plain
question: why not use the loki instead of tengu? it has almost the same dps as the tengu but it is smaller, faster and can choose damage types.


Loki would be a lot quicker to train as I already have T2 medium guns, and most of the minmatar ship skills needed (minus cruisers V). Consensus seems to be that the Loki is just not as good as the Tengu for PVE, mostly because it lacks range and has to chase its targets, wheras the tengu can just sit still (or kite) and unload.

I figure a T3 is going to be a lot of training whichever one I choose, so I might as well choose the "best" one. If someone can convince me a Loki is going to be just as good as a Tengu for PVE then sure, but that's not an opinion I hear very often...


Loki really isn't that bad, I have both Tengu and Loki and prefer the Loki. The issue with range? well it's true on paper, however as you know most of your tank is speed based on both ships, and I don't find range to be an issue.

Loki is a lot more fun, who in their right mind would prefer missiles over AC?
unless you want to play AFK of course.

As for the DPS, well you will lose 25% Missile to defenders on many NPC targets.

I love my Loki, Tengu is.. meh imo

Julien Brellier
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:08:00 - [21]
 

Maelstrom is better than Tengu and far far cheaper too.

If you want to upgrade, go for a Vargur or Machariel

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 06:41:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: pussnheels on 01/09/2011 07:50:06
Stll feel you better of with a battleship for lvl4 s much cheaper much more robuste and less of a gank magnet ,and for mission time. Those 10 minutes extra per mission you do. Will not be the end of the world

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Daniel Plain on 01/09/2011 16:08:48
Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade
Originally by: Daniel Plain
...

unless you use faction mods and/or implants

...

so while range is indeed still an isue, all other aspects actually favor the loki imo.



Range is vitally important for level 4s. Also, why would you not use faction mods? Tengu for me is 761 Kinetic DPS with no implants. I don't think the Loki comes close even before you consider range.


if you take the standard pve autocannon loki and change the gyros from t2 to rf, you are at 711 dps without implants. also, as some stated already, your damage does not get diminished by defenders and you can always abuse resistance holes.
again, range is still an issue. but aide from that, the loki is superior, on paper at least.

edit: a little off topic but from what i have seen so far, the loki will also outperform the tengu in soloing sleeper anomalies. most sleepers tend to orbit at about 10km except for the battleships, which you in turn want to orbit closely to avoid their turret damage.

Yith Za'bolazhi
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:37:00 - [24]
 

I was suitable impressed with the maelstrom at level 4 so i train the mimmie BS skill to 5, put this with some cheap faction shield booster/amplifier and a crystal implant set ya never look back Cool

I've now train maurader skill to level 5 as i really enjoyed the BS bonus at 5 so much Very Happy

Depending on your skill level ya can this lil beastie to have perma omni tank Twisted Evil

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:56:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 01/09/2011 16:56:57
Originally by: Daniel Plain
if you take the standard pve autocannon loki and change the gyros from t2 to rf, you are at 711 dps without implants. also, as some stated already, your damage does not get diminished by defenders and you can always abuse resistance holes.
again, range is still an issue. but aide from that, the loki is superior, on paper at least.


First, what is this "standard pve autocannon loki"? I can't seem to push one past 700 dps without drones even with a T2 burst aerator and four(!) RF gyros (and the fourth one really, really ought to be a TE). In that configuration you have truly huge range issues: 1.7 + 26 does not an efficient mission boat make. And to get a decent tank requires more iskies than I personally find reasonable for an L4 boat that can get alpha'd straight out of space.

What's more, the Loki not only fails to compete with the Tengu on the basis of range issues, it has serious problems keeping up with a Sleipnir, which can easily eke out more damage AND more range in an AC fit -- and only really needs a RF AB and a bottom tier (RF/Domination) faction XL booster.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how this mythical L4 Loki is a good idea. But I'm more than willing to be proven wrong.

Originally by: Daniel Plain
edit: a little off topic but from what i have seen so far, the loki will also outperform the tengu in soloing sleeper anomalies. most sleepers tend to orbit at about 10km except for the battleships, which you in turn want to orbit closely to avoid their turret damage.


Or you could use missiles and not worry about range while maintaining a comparable tank OR just use a Sleipnir.... Again, I'm open to being wrong about all of this, but I'm just not seeing the huge appeal of the Loki.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.01 17:21:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 01/09/2011 17:21:10
Originally by: Daniel Plain
edit: a little off topic but from what i have seen so far, the loki will also outperform the tengu in soloing sleeper anomalies. most sleepers tend to orbit at about 10km except for the battleships, which you in turn want to orbit closely to avoid their turret damage.


In the higher class sites and anoms there are 40km webs used by the Sleepers. ACs are pretty bad at that point, which is why people use HMLs on their Tengus.

Puss in Boots
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:08:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Zoe Ardent
I'd go for Minmatar BS.

Tengu has too many downsides for missioning: low dps against sanshas/blood raiders, vulnerability against webifier frigates and loss of dps due to NPC defender missiles spam.


You've never flown a tengu, have you? If you have, subsystem skills at level 2 will make it seem like it sucks.

Navaris Dreadblade
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Daniel Plain
Edited by: Daniel Plain on 01/09/2011 16:08:48
Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade
Originally by: Daniel Plain
...

unless you use faction mods and/or implants

...

so while range is indeed still an isue, all other aspects actually favor the loki imo.



Range is vitally important for level 4s. Also, why would you not use faction mods? Tengu for me is 761 Kinetic DPS with no implants. I don't think the Loki comes close even before you consider range.


if you take the standard pve autocannon loki and change the gyros from t2 to rf, you are at 711 dps without implants. also, as some stated already, your damage does not get diminished by defenders and you can always abuse resistance holes.
again, range is still an issue. but aide from that, the loki is superior, on paper at least.

edit: a little off topic but from what i have seen so far, the loki will also outperform the tengu in soloing sleeper anomalies. most sleepers tend to orbit at about 10km except for the battleships, which you in turn want to orbit closely to avoid their turret damage.


Loki isn't even superior on paper unless you ignore range. You do 711 dps (skeptical about this, but I'm too lazy to EFT and argue against it) at your optimal, which for a medium AC boat is about 2km. If you're going within 2km of every single target, you're wasting so much time travelling. Tengu does its 761 DPS at 110km regardless of the positions/speeds of the ships.

If range is less of an issue (40km or less ranges), a HAM Tengu outranges a Loki and blows it out of the water when it comes to damage out. As much as it sucks, the Tengu just outclasses the other strategic cruisers by miles in most things PvE.

Ben Dourion
Posted - 2011.09.03 14:11:00 - [29]
 

Tengu is for people who run high sec missions like a second job honestly ,lets not talk about shooting heavy missiles to frigs Confused or having to wait 5 or 6 secs for your missiles to hit your target, also lol npc defenders missiles

If you're used to instant guns dmg , decent drones bay and good dmg of AC once you ve got the right skills, going to the tengu is a step down and personnally i found it very boring to fly as well .



 

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