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The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:02:00 - [1]
 

Here's how it works:

You get 10.5 million ISK per character per site, max of 10 characters (for full ISK payout), if you are smart you can do a site in 5 minutes. 2 players can multi-account all 10 characters, making 5x10.5 mil ISK each. So that is 52.5 million ISK for each player per 5 minutes... do that for 2 hours and you make 1.2 billion... for one person. Lets say you aren't that efficient.. then you only make say 1 billion or 900 million in 2 hours, still a great return.

One of the reasons this is possible is because only 3-5 of the 10 man fleet actually needs to enter the site, the rest just sit on the outside of the gate and still collect the ISK payout. The multi-box players only need to control 2 of their 5 characters during the incursion but make ISK for all 5.

Or if you just do it the old fashioned way, 1 player with 1 account, you could make 100 mil an hour. Get the idea?

With all of this it takes a pretty serious mistake (like a disconnect) for anyone to risk their ships. It's also in high sec so no worries about gankers.

Does anyone else think this is over powered or am I alone?

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:12:00 - [2]
 

I take it you've not run incursions...

you send 2 pilots in on a site that needs 10... they're gonna get nuked, or another fleet's gonna show up and steal the reward (and the 2-man gang is still gonna get nuked).

Sansha aren't standard rats on steroids... these are SLEEPERS on steroids...

S1r DigbyChickenCaesar
Tech 3 Constructions
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
I take it you've not run incursions...

you send 2 pilots in on a site that needs 10... they're gonna get nuked, or another fleet's gonna show up and steal the reward (and the 2-man gang is still gonna get nuked).

Sansha aren't standard rats on steroids... these are SLEEPERS on steroids...


Tell that to people who run 5 accounts themselves and so does thier friend, and blitz incursions.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:15:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
I take it you've not run incursions...

you send 2 pilots in on a site that needs 10... they're gonna get nuked, or another fleet's gonna show up and steal the reward (and the 2-man gang is still gonna get nuked).

Sansha aren't standard rats on steroids... these are SLEEPERS on steroids...


Not true. I can do a Nation Commander Outpost with 2 Basi's and 2 Vindicators. Anything else is a (small) bonus.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Originally by: Velicitia
you send 2 pilots in on a site that needs 10... they're gonna get nuked, or another fleet's gonna show up and steal the reward (and the 2-man gang is still gonna get nuked)
Not true. I can do a Nation Commander Outpost with 2 Basi's and 2 Vindicators.
So, you're actually saying that yes, it is indeed true, since that's four ships, not two.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:20:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 28/08/2011 18:22:28
Originally by: The Pteradactyl
One of the reasons this is possible is because only 3-5 of the 10 man fleet actually needs to enter the site, the rest just sit on the outside of the gate and still collect the ISK payout. The multi-box players only need to control 2 of their 5 characters during the incursion but make ISK for all 5.


Two players, five characters per player, ten characters total (between two players). Two characters per player in the Incursion, three per character outside but on the acceleration gate. Four characters total killing rats. Two basi's, two vindi's and that's that. I do this and it's totally easy.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:24:00 - [7]
 

y'know ... this shiptoast should really be in F&I ... where it'll die cold and (preferably) alone


... make it so CCP.Cool

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:24:00 - [8]
 

So?

Incursions are not static content, they are a finite resource and encourage player interaction.

EVERYONE can do incursions, so there is competition for completing the sites. Incursions don't always appear in the same system, so people have to move around a lot

Incursions don't always appear in high sec, and sometimes NONE are in high sec. In which case you have to move to low/null sec to complete them which can be quite dangerous in your billion ISK PvE ship.

I don't see any problems with incursions, except that they can be annoying how they interfere with day-to-day activities. But then again, this ability to interfere with player activities is part of what makes them interesting.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Four characters total killing rats. Two basi's, two vindi's and that's that.
So, he was still very much right, and you didn't read properly when trying to correct him: four ships, not two.

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:26:00 - [10]
 

Moved from General Discussion

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:26:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 28/08/2011 18:22:28
Originally by: The Pteradactyl
One of the reasons this is possible is because only 3-5 of the 10 man fleet actually needs to enter the site, the rest just sit on the outside of the gate and still collect the ISK payout. The multi-box players only need to control 2 of their 5 characters during the incursion but make ISK for all 5.


Two players, five characters per player, ten characters total (between two players). Two characters per player in the Incursion, three per character outside but on the acceleration gate. Four characters total killing rats. Two basi's, two vindi's and that's that. I do this and it's totally easy.


Okay, I admit I'm an alt troll character. But I AM NOT trolling about this. My original post was just to send out a feeler to see if anyone agrees this is crazy, or if they're even aware this is possible. I know for a fact a lot of big alliance have this organized to fill their wallets... That's where I learned this.

I think they should require you to be inside of the site (while the damage is being done) to collect the ISK payout, does that not seem reasonable?

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Incursions don't always appear in high sec, and sometimes NONE are in high sec. In which case you have to move to low/null sec to complete them which can be quite dangerous in your billion ISK PvE ship.


Although you may be right, it is rare that there isn't at least one Incursion in high sec. Two or three is common.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Moved from General Discussion


Shockedwow, it worked!Shocked

(on-topic)
OP is not supported.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Moved from General Discussion


Shockedwow, it worked!Shocked

(on-topic)
OP is not supported.


Fair enough. I am benefiting so I guess I can't get too upset.

It would be interesting to see how much ISK the Incursions are putting into the game though.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Moved from General Discussion


My poast got nerfed. Ouch.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:18:00 - [16]
 

You are way late to the party my dear, I asked for Incursion ISK nerf a couple of weeks after they were added .. made 500M in a few hours with a FW pick-up crew.

That kind of money should not be possible from static and scripted content unless it involves some serious risk.
Took all of one week for people to get organized and figure out the optimal composition for the different sites, since then its been Farmville in space.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:44:00 - [17]
 

He's actually right though, but not because you can run them with 2 characters. Even if you do them normally without any multiboxing or whatever, you still make obscene amounts of isk (100M an hour) if you have a gang that knows what they're doing. And that's not even in LP (which isn't even that big of a part) but just raw ISK.

And this is NOT a finite source of income. Sites will keep spawning within a particular incursion. Sure, the actual incursions could potentially be finished for a day or 2 but they are generally being farmed. Even though you may have to compete for a site sometimes, you will have no issue finding them.

For something that is so stupidly safe (you cannot fail at this if you have a half-decent gang) and in highsec without any other risks, the income is way too good. Giving the rewards in raw isk was a very bad idea as there is no form of balancing by competition that is very much needed for an infinite supply kind of thing.

But hey, I'll continue whoring isk on my alt in my shiny Nightmare until you fixed it :P

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Originally by: Taedrin
Incursions don't always appear in high sec, and sometimes NONE are in high sec. In which case you have to move to low/null sec to complete them which can be quite dangerous in your billion ISK PvE ship.


Although you may be right, it is rare that there isn't at least one Incursion in high sec. Two or three is common.



Do you know why? That's because we as highsec incursion runners counting over 2000 players have agreed to a certain agreement made between those who run the largest incursion communities in EVE to let the incursions run themselves out before we end them.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime can come and do incursions with us.

But that my mate doesn't stop a 50-80 man fleet coming from nullsec, lowsec, highsec, w-space to come and end the incursion without any warning.
Before these agreements were made an incursion wouldn't last longer than 12 hours and if we remove the agreements today they wouldn't last more than 4 hours.

What we would do is sit in station and chit-chat until an incursions pops up. When that happened fleets would be forming and vanguards running within 20-30 min. Then as the influence dropped we would form assault and later HQ fleets to prepare for the mom fleet.
When the influence was 90 + % the mom fleet would be formed and standing by for the Kundalini manifest site to appear and then finish it off.

If you're not satisfied with this, by all means, come and compete or come and end this incursion, but don't run over to your parents like a whiny little kid complaining about something. Man the **** up and do something about it yourself.
HTFU

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.29 05:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Drykor
He's actually right though, but not because you can run them with 2 characters. Even if you do them normally without any multiboxing or whatever, you still make obscene amounts of isk (100M an hour) if you have a gang that knows what they're doing. And that's not even in LP (which isn't even that big of a part) but just raw ISK.

And this is NOT a finite source of income. Sites will keep spawning within a particular incursion. Sure, the actual incursions could potentially be finished for a day or 2 but they are generally being farmed. Even though you may have to compete for a site sometimes, you will have no issue finding them.

For something that is so stupidly safe (you cannot fail at this if you have a half-decent gang) and in highsec without any other risks, the income is way too good. Giving the rewards in raw isk was a very bad idea as there is no form of balancing by competition that is very much needed for an infinite supply kind of thing.

But hey, I'll continue whoring isk on my alt in my shiny Nightmare until you fixed it :P


You gotta remember too, the incursion LP store eats ALOT of isk as well. But yeah, I've seen guys multibox a group of drakes in vanguard sites to take them down, and I've seen some stupidly high DPS vanguard fleets that can clear sites in 3-4 minutes. I said something about this back when incursions first came out: elite groups will form and they will make a ton of isk pretty care-free. If you nerf incursions, then you cut the guys who are casually doing incursions giving another advantage to elite groups. If you make the incursions harder, then you again give an advantage to the elite groups that can run them fast. Its a lose-lose situation to the casual players.

Yes, you should get an advantage when you organize a great fleet, but to what point?

And as far as the finite site thing is concerned: I think thats where the Research facilities, those split room consolidation sites, and OTAs were designed to break the flow of farming and require some reorganization to deal with. But OTAs have been easily defeated with huge volley damage, and NCNs and Research facs people can ignore for quite a while, so they're not functioning as a hinderance.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.29 09:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jaigar
....

One could have made the exact same argument with regards to Sanctums and look how that ended up .. just sayin' Smile

Besides, a nerf could take the form of requiring a character to be on-grid to benefit from completion.
Allows for elite crews and casual's to get their fill but eliminates the abuse of the system.

Pure ISK generation is too high though, more of the income should be moved onto the player market by increasing LP gain .. kills the farming of Incursions without impacting much else. Just need better (read: desirable) stuff in the store first.

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:27:00 - [21]
 

Well, if hi sec gets these risk free, isk printing incursions--GREAT

but

level 4 to low sec, null sec

bye bye ice

problem solved

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:58:00 - [22]
 

Well being on grid solves nothing; just uber-tank a drake or come in the site right before it ends.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.08.29 14:52:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Delianora
Well, if hi sec gets these risk free, isk printing incursions--GREAT

but

level 4 to low sec, null sec

bye bye ice

problem solved

*head desk* High Sec incursions are not risk free, you can *GASP* take the incursions from someone. You can bring more DPS, bring more people on site, just ruin the experience. HOLY ****! Still has risk, about as much as market manipulation. But the best you through it through was destroying ships, which if there was any interaction could just steal the site from someone which like market PVP where you don't have to hit the F-keys, set orbit, and keep an eye on local incase of a population spike.

As for solving all the problems, turn EVE off at the source. BAM! No more dissatisfied carebears *****ing about ninjas, no more super cap complaints, no more PVP pilots *****ing about moving PVE mission ships to lowsec (PVE ship = NPC ship, so challenging Rolling Eyes but the fact a player name is on the KM gives it more worth then a Gisti Saint BS Neutral), no more complaints about nullsec or FW needs a buff. You cannot have complaints without a source, so I vote to nuke the server.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:45:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 29/08/2011 15:48:11
Originally by: Aqriue
*head desk* High Sec incursions are not risk free, you can *GASP* take the incursions from someone. You can bring more DPS, bring more people on site, just ruin the experience. HOLY ****! Still has risk, about as much as market manipulation. But the best you through it through was destroying ships, which if there was any interaction could just steal the site from someone which like market PVP where you don't have to hit the F-keys, set orbit, and keep an eye on local incase of a population spike.


Well, by your suggestion a good nerf might be less Vanguard sites. Although you can out DPS somebody, and it does happen, there are usually too many of the easy sites and too many systems with those sites to make someone stealing them a real issue. It's more of an avoidable annoyance than a "risk". I guess risk means something different to everyone, but waiting an extra few minutes for your next free dose of 10.5 mil doesn't constitute "risk" to me.

Originally by: Agriue
As for solving all the problems, turn EVE off at the source. BAM! No more dissatisfied carebears *****ing about ninjas, no more super cap complaints, no more PVP pilots *****ing about moving PVE mission ships to lowsec (PVE ship = NPC ship, so challenging Rolling Eyes but the fact a player name is on the KM gives it more worth then a Gisti Saint BS Neutral), no more complaints about nullsec or FW needs a buff. You cannot have complaints without a source, so I vote to nuke the server.


I guess I don't see removing 'Instant Win' buttons as a reason for turning EVE off at the source. I feel like if the game is harder it is better, there will be some bitter tears but that's part of growing. Leaving the game the same as 2004 forever just can't happen so I'd quit wishing for that.

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:16:00 - [25]
 

Well, look at the income difference between running vanguards with a great fleet and running assaults or HQs with a mediocore fleet. Vanguards win everytime isk wise and require less time to organize, etc. In otherwords, theres no good reason for a group of guys running vanguards extremely fast to move up, unless they get pushed out.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.08.30 10:18:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 29/08/2011 15:48:11
Well, by your suggestion a good nerf might be less Vanguard sites. Although you can out DPS somebody, and it does happen, there are usually too many of the easy sites and too many systems with those sites to make someone stealing them a real issue. It's more of an avoidable annoyance than a "risk". I guess risk means something different to everyone, but waiting an extra few minutes for your next free dose of 10.5 mil doesn't constitute "risk" to me.

True, I never did care for Incursions and have only warped into one to take a look. If something needs to be tweaked, it should be fixed to correct it. Incursions in highsec are good to form up groups of like minded individuals, create alliances between people (not the corp kind), and then they can move on into the rest of the universe from there. Its good to have differing levels of challenge, to get your feet wet and move on to the next big challenge. I find Incursions to be more of annoyance put out by halfassed effort on the part of CCP, they completely negate months/weeks/days worth of time you spent aquiring skill points by paying a monthly subscription to fly a marauder that is now useless for several days as the loot is crap now since Dominion and the bounties cut in half by the system wide Incursion debuff. You can all say to pack up and move to another mission hub in the mean time, but let me suggest you all highsec PVP dwellers pack up and move to lowsec...oh wait...how those words come back around.

The post I first made was more in the direction towards idiots trying to force me to play a certain way to get their way. What annoys me is ****ant morons think every ship with a player tag participating in PVE content should be destroyable on site without repercussions to themselves because "those carebears are getting rewarded without risk so level 4s should be in lowsec ect ect ad nausem" then let me break a Whack-A-Mole arcade game so the machine never ducks back into the hole and you have a huge one sided advantage. PVE content in mission form generally does not favor PVP style ships to blast NPC, at the same time PVP ships lack a challenge because no buffer / no warp scram / no webber is a huge one sided reward with zero risk to the aggressive pilot. So, if you break the PVE ship from the PVP style build you have a broken Whack-A-Mole game giving an "I-Win!" to the aggressive pilot. Logically (if you can at least see it my way), PVP ships get rewarded with zero risk to themselves against PVE ships. Level 4s pay min-wage, any other source of isk creation generates way more then bounties and LP can in highsec deadspace; highsec level 4 is more of a casual way to play EVE.

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
I guess I don't see removing 'Instant Win' buttons as a reason for turning EVE off at the source. I feel like if the game is harder it is better, there will be some bitter tears but that's part of growing. Leaving the game the same as 2004 forever just can't happen so I'd quit wishing for that.

This is more of a joke I make everytime now someone opens their mouth with a loud belly*****ing moan about something that has been moaned and belly*****ed repeatedly to death already. Move level 4 to lowsec, nerf SC, buff FW, kick out long term NPC corp dwellers, ect ect. CCP just needs to pin up a dozen searchable threads where everyone can voice there opinon where no one else really cares Rolling Eyes otherwise turning off the source of the problems (the game server) removes the complaints Laughing


 

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