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Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:19:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Darknesss on 03/09/2011 09:59:40
Reasons
PvP once required skill and an advanced understanding of ships capabilities and game mechanics. These mechanics are very rarely required or used these days due to the mentality of 'lets repair so much none of us die even when we make stupid mistakes'.

A small group of people will often in a game with as many people on a single server come up against larger groups of people. I have no issue with this, if you fly in a small group it should require better skill to combat large groups, but it should always be possible (within reason) to take them on.

With the use of remote repair a small group of people often end up utterly powerless to kill a single ship because of the large volume of logistics ships. A gang can quite happily go up against your small group safe in the knowledge that the enemy simply cannot do the required DPS to break their reps or cause them any meaningful damage. This was a benefit to smaller groups in the past as only the smaller groups tended to really use them, but this has changed and now they are common place in 99% of gangs whether they be small or large.

It also goes both ways, you can get a single heavily tanked ship jumping into a massive group of people with several logistics supporting it and beat them. This is not a balanced game.

The only way to get kills is to rely on the enemy making mistakes by flying out of rep range or getting caught away from the gang, or failure on part of the logistics pilot. A game where combat is defined solely on the hope that the enemy will make a mistake is a broken game. As important as mistakes are in combat, pilot skill should be equally if not more important.


Possible proposals:
1) Introduce a system where by large remote repair modules only work on battleship class and larger, medium on battlecruiser/cruiser sized ships and larger and small on frigate class ships and larger
2) Give remote reps a stacking penalty meaning the more reps on a single target the less effective repairers become
3) Have remote reps give off a target painting effect increasing targets sig radius


Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:25:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Darknesss on 03/09/2011 09:31:11
Reserved

Caldari Android
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:35:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Caldari Android on 28/08/2011 13:48:51
i agree with this and firmly approve :D by the way, with the upcoming supernerf, some of the supercapital issues should be solvedYARRRR!! (edited to reflect edited OP)

stranac
Amarr
Most Wanted INC
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:40:00 - [4]
 

signed. everytinhg for small gang warfare:))

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:53:00 - [5]
 

Supported of course :)

Steveo Mowi
Space Pioneers
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:01:00 - [6]
 

Bumb,awesome idea.Small gang Pewpew brings the pain.

Static Mods
V0LTA
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:05:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Static Mods on 28/08/2011 14:06:49
Very good idea. Bring back small gang warfare

Propolis
Gallente
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:24:00 - [8]
 

Sounds good.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:29:00 - [9]
 

Sick to death of being in fleets with 300 ships shooting at one guy who then doesn't die

Nevets Estevan
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:54:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Nevets Estevan on 28/08/2011 14:54:39
I support this, as long as it doesn't impact my missions too much.

WarGod
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: WarGod on 28/08/2011 15:00:53
Actually a good idea.

Not supporting this would make me gay...er

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain

Posted - 2011.08.28 15:16:00 - [12]
 

essentially remote repping mechanics are ****ed up, neutral rr and all that bull****

then you add overpowered logistic ships to chain and you got pile of poo.

supporting general idea.

Tertius Caedes
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:18:00 - [13]
 

brilliant idea

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:22:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
essentially remote repping mechanics are ****ed up, neutral rr and all that bull****

then you add overpowered logistic ships to chain and you got pile of poo.

supporting general idea.



I forgot the neutral empire logistics issue, have added that to the proposal.

Thanks

Desire X
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:49:00 - [15]
 

There are a few points here that gimp small gangs a lot. First, your pretty much restricting triage to sc blob warfare. A single triage carrier can be the ultimate weapon for a small gang taking on -bigger- gang.
Second; guardians with med reps makes me cry a little inside. I have worked hard to be able to get into fights using minimal logistics against a bigger gang. Reducing the rep amount they can pump out imo will only lead to an increase in logi ship usage. Imagine the gangs you see now but with x2 the logi and you see what I think will happen.

Problem with this game atm is too many fgots thinking blobbing is clever who are too scared to lose isk than actually enjoy what they are paying for with REAL money.

Clintonius
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:51:00 - [16]
 

I fully support this idea.

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Desire X
There are a few points here that gimp small gangs a lot. First, your pretty much restricting triage to sc blob warfare. A single triage carrier can be the ultimate weapon for a small gang taking on -bigger- gang.
Second; guardians with med reps makes me cry a little inside. I have worked hard to be able to get into fights using minimal logistics against a bigger gang. Reducing the rep amount they can pump out imo will only lead to an increase in logi ship usage. Imagine the gangs you see now but with x2 the logi and you see what I think will happen.

Problem with this game atm is too many fgots thinking blobbing is clever who are too scared to lose isk than actually enjoy what they are paying for with REAL money.


A small group of battleships could easily punch through medium remote repairer ability unless they field an insane amount of logistics which wont happen.

Yes what I'm proposing does in some way damage smaller gangs, but if its good on a small scale for a small group it becomes out of hand when applied to a larger group on larger scales.

As it should be the defense against larger gangs should be either having a better class of ship than them or using speed to your advantage.

Large remote reps were never initially designed for use on small/medium sized ships, they cannot be fit on to small ships for the same reason you cannot fit a large armour repairer to a cruiser sized ship, the modules are meant for different classes.

What I'm proposing should be natural common sense. As someone said if a 300 man gang is shooting a target that target should die, it should not be able to tank - thats ridiculous.


Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:01:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Darknesss
As someone said if a 300 man gang is shooting a target that target should die, it should not be able to tank - thats ridiculous.


If your 300 ships can't alpha a target you're doing something wrong.

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dinta Zembo
Originally by: Darknesss
As someone said if a 300 man gang is shooting a target that target should die, it should not be able to tank - thats ridiculous.


If your 300 ships can't alpha a target you're doing something wrong.


Lag often prevents alpha damage with module delay etc. and even 300 people would struggle to alpha down capitals.

Trixie Min
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Darknesss
Originally by: Desire X
There are a few points here that gimp small gangs a lot. First, your pretty much restricting triage to sc blob warfare. A single triage carrier can be the ultimate weapon for a small gang taking on -bigger- gang.
Second; guardians with med reps makes me cry a little inside. I have worked hard to be able to get into fights using minimal logistics against a bigger gang. Reducing the rep amount they can pump out imo will only lead to an increase in logi ship usage. Imagine the gangs you see now but with x2 the logi and you see what I think will happen.

Problem with this game atm is too many fgots thinking blobbing is clever who are too scared to lose isk than actually enjoy what they are paying for with REAL money.


A small group of battleships could easily punch through medium remote repairer ability unless they field an insane amount of logistics which wont happen.

Yes what I'm proposing does in some way damage smaller gangs, but if its good on a small scale for a small group it becomes out of hand when applied to a larger group on larger scales.

As it should be the defense against larger gangs should be either having a better class of ship than them or using speed to your advantage.

Large remote reps were never initially designed for use on small/medium sized ships, they cannot be fit on to small ships for the same reason you cannot fit a large armour repairer to a cruiser sized ship, the modules are meant for different classes.

What I'm proposing should be natural common sense. As someone said if a 300 man gang is shooting a target that target should die, it should not be able to tank - thats ridiculous.




Im not bothered about 0.0 quite honestly. But surely there is better ways than what you are proposing. How about restricting capital rr to only repping sub caps? Why should a blob of supers be able to tank on that ridiculous scale? Why are moms even allowed to rr anyway? surely that is the domain of the carrier and why the triage module was specifically created?

IMO if you're shooting a target with 300 people and its not dying you are either shooting the wrong target OR you need better gunnery skills.

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources

Posted - 2011.08.28 16:10:00 - [21]
 

yay thumbs

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Trixie Min
Originally by: Darknesss
Originally by: Desire X
There are a few points here that gimp small gangs a lot. First, your pretty much restricting triage to sc blob warfare. A single triage carrier can be the ultimate weapon for a small gang taking on -bigger- gang.
Second; guardians with med reps makes me cry a little inside. I have worked hard to be able to get into fights using minimal logistics against a bigger gang. Reducing the rep amount they can pump out imo will only lead to an increase in logi ship usage. Imagine the gangs you see now but with x2 the logi and you see what I think will happen.

Problem with this game atm is too many fgots thinking blobbing is clever who are too scared to lose isk than actually enjoy what they are paying for with REAL money.


A small group of battleships could easily punch through medium remote repairer ability unless they field an insane amount of logistics which wont happen.

Yes what I'm proposing does in some way damage smaller gangs, but if its good on a small scale for a small group it becomes out of hand when applied to a larger group on larger scales.

As it should be the defense against larger gangs should be either having a better class of ship than them or using speed to your advantage.

Large remote reps were never initially designed for use on small/medium sized ships, they cannot be fit on to small ships for the same reason you cannot fit a large armour repairer to a cruiser sized ship, the modules are meant for different classes.

What I'm proposing should be natural common sense. As someone said if a 300 man gang is shooting a target that target should die, it should not be able to tank - thats ridiculous.




Im not bothered about 0.0 quite honestly. But surely there is better ways than what you are proposing. How about restricting capital rr to only repping sub caps? Why should a blob of supers be able to tank on that ridiculous scale? Why are moms even allowed to rr anyway? surely that is the domain of the carrier and why the triage module was specifically created?

IMO if you're shooting a target with 300 people and its not dying you are either shooting the wrong target OR you need better gunnery skills.


Yes supers could have a lot of armor reps from triage carriers however if a carrier goes into triage it itself cannot receive reps meaning it becomes a vulnerable target.

Often on the field these days in 0.0 there is only capitals because of how tough they are, you may not care but I and many others do.

I understand and appreciate your comments but if you have been in large scale fights you would know that even if a primary BS is called for a 300 man gang it can take several minutes to down them due to module issues and lag.

BlackKnight
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:28:00 - [23]
 

/Signed

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:30:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Darknesss
Yes supers could have a lot of armor reps from triage carriers however if a carrier goes into triage it itself cannot receive reps meaning it becomes a vulnerable target.

Often on the field these days in 0.0 there is only capitals because of how tough they are, you may not care but I and many others do.

I understand and appreciate your comments but if you have been in large scale fights you would know that even if a primary BS is called for a 300 man gang it can take several minutes to down them due to module issues and lag.


So the issue is lag, not remote repair. If there was no lag, the target would get alpha'd. So fix lag, don't nerf RR. It works fine.

Also, alpha capitals? No. that's why they're capital ships. Bring your own capitals if you want to make that happen. How many times do rifter gangs alpha battleships? Rolling Eyes

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:40:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Darknesss on 28/08/2011 16:41:34
Originally by: Dinta Zembo
Originally by: Darknesss
Yes supers could have a lot of armor reps from triage carriers however if a carrier goes into triage it itself cannot receive reps meaning it becomes a vulnerable target.

Often on the field these days in 0.0 there is only capitals because of how tough they are, you may not care but I and many others do.

I understand and appreciate your comments but if you have been in large scale fights you would know that even if a primary BS is called for a 300 man gang it can take several minutes to down them due to module issues and lag.


So the issue is lag, not remote repair. If there was no lag, the target would get alpha'd. So fix lag, don't nerf RR. It works fine.

Also, alpha capitals? No. that's why they're capital ships. Bring your own capitals if you want to make that happen. How many times do rifter gangs alpha battleships? Rolling Eyes


Fix lag, simple as that? CCP may be trying but its not working there is lag and that currently is not fixable.

The problem with bring capitals is that capitals only weakness is more capitals making other ships almost pointless in fights and means that the alliance with the most caps wins - it requires no skill and no tactics... its essentially PvP for dummies.

I think an alliance that wants to conquer space and hold things should have to field both classes. Regardless of all of that though, the current RR situation is killing small PvP and its not right that small gangs are left powerless to fight other gangs of relative size because they have a lot of logsitics and simply cannot be killed even if they're terrible.

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:45:00 - [26]
 

Yes.

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:20:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Darknesss
Fix lag, simple as that? CCP may be trying but its not working there is lag and that currently is not fixable.

The problem with bring capitals is that capitals only weakness is more capitals making other ships almost pointless in fights and means that the alliance with the most caps wins - it requires no skill and no tactics... its essentially PvP for dummies.

I think an alliance that wants to conquer space and hold things should have to field both classes. Regardless of all of that though, the current RR situation is killing small PvP and its not right that small gangs are left powerless to fight other gangs of relative size because they have a lot of logsitics and simply cannot be killed even if they're terrible.


- You're still suggesting to nerf RR instead of fixing lag properly
- You're now also suggesting to nerf RR to fix capital imbalance
- You do have to field support. Not only just with capitals. Every proper gang needs support like logistics, ships with points, dedicated web ships (lokis), ewar ships to counter logis (falcon/tengu). Once a certain ammount of capitals on the field, yes, it becomes a matter of who has the biggest blob, simply because you can't bring 3000 ships to alpha through all those capitals.

Yes I too have the ideal of the beautiful fleet formations like in the trailers, but in reality, the biggest blob wins.
I just can't see how this would make it easier for small gangs. In reality you'd leave the cruiser gangs with smaller RR mods while the battleships now have better RR making them even stronger against those cruisers.

Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Dinta Zembo
Originally by: Darknesss
Fix lag, simple as that? CCP may be trying but its not working there is lag and that currently is not fixable.

The problem with bring capitals is that capitals only weakness is more capitals making other ships almost pointless in fights and means that the alliance with the most caps wins - it requires no skill and no tactics... its essentially PvP for dummies.

I think an alliance that wants to conquer space and hold things should have to field both classes. Regardless of all of that though, the current RR situation is killing small PvP and its not right that small gangs are left powerless to fight other gangs of relative size because they have a lot of logsitics and simply cannot be killed even if they're terrible.


- You're still suggesting to nerf RR instead of fixing lag properly
- You're now also suggesting to nerf RR to fix capital imbalance
- You do have to field support. Not only just with capitals. Every proper gang needs support like logistics, ships with points, dedicated web ships (lokis), ewar ships to counter logis (falcon/tengu). Once a certain ammount of capitals on the field, yes, it becomes a matter of who has the biggest blob, simply because you can't bring 3000 ships to alpha through all those capitals.

Yes I too have the ideal of the beautiful fleet formations like in the trailers, but in reality, the biggest blob wins.
I just can't see how this would make it easier for small gangs. In reality you'd leave the cruiser gangs with smaller RR mods while the battleships now have better RR making them even stronger against those cruisers.


I'm not just now suggesting it, it was in the original post - capitals should be weak and vulnerable to support, and you really don't need support to take space, yes biggest blob wins and yes that is largely due to lag, no i'm not saying dont fix lag, I'm just being a realist, an Assembly Hall topic asking for CCP to fix lag would be a joke, they're trying but its not happening.

More than large scale though I am wanting change because of the affect RR has on small scale PvP, large scale spider tanking capitals are IMO a secondary concern, but a concern none the less.

This game used to be about more than biggest blob wins because there used to have to be tactics, the introduction and increasing number of capitals has beaten tactics and thrown them out of the window, its now just throwing stuff on to the grid and giving a primary.

BUT as I said above my main concern is with small scale PvP where you get gangs of people who are powerless to do anything against other gangs not because of lack of skill or guts and not because the enemy have skill but because of the increasing number of logistics ships being used and more importantly using LARGE repairers on MEDIUM sized ships.

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:38:00 - [29]
 

This does not fix capital spider tanking because, like you said, capital mods affect capital ships. Also, logistics have the less powergrid usage bonus because they have to fulfill their role.

The result of this will be that battleship gangs become more powerful and smaller gangs less powerful because the small ship gangs would simply require more logis to have enough reps to keep the gang alive.

Also, what do you consider a 'small gang'? A 5-man frigate gang does not have logistics in it.

Even with a medium-against-medium kind of engagement, the bigger gang still wins because they have more guns and more reps. Size unrelated. So what's the use of this change? I can say from experience that a well-coordinated small gang does beat a bigger gang where nobody is following orders.

Desire X
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:46:00 - [30]
 

Gimping ships with a clearly defined role, like a logi, should never be a means to give lazy people a better chance of killing some ships....

A 300 man gang is not a small gang so that argument is redundant and bears no relation to your original post about making it easier for small gangs to get the upper hand. In fact, well piloted logi do precisely the opposite for actual small gangs.

0.0 is a mess, full of massive alliance blobs intent on blobbing everyone out of existence so that they can rmt their mortgages. Make it harder for these napfests and blueblobs to happen and you will get your small gang warfare.


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