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Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:21:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 31/08/2011 15:00:08

Disclaimer: I would like your input/thoughts/support here, as I wish to have its major flaws sorted out before I kick it to the Assembly hall. Try to keep comments constructive, if at all possible. [/disclaimer]


Okay guys. So we all know that Local needs to go. The question that still remains, however, is what to replace it with?

If Local goes, the pirate (or, hell, any PvPer) no longer knows if a given ship on scan is active or at a POS; no longer knows if the system even contains targets. This would lessen the ease of locating targets, and would cause many tears for professional pirates. On the other hand, if Local goes, carebears no longer have advance warning of a pirate's presence, creating a modicum of risk in their profession--a major plus.

If Local goes, it must be replaced by another intel tool that benefits both pirates and their prey, and to that end, I have developed the NEW DIRECTIONAL SCANNER.

The Basic Idea:

Let's be honest, the current directional scanner sucks. Sure, it delivers instant information in a 14 AU radius, but the information is unfiltered and the UI is terrible. Moreover, it's identical on every ship, a fact that kinda hinders the whole immersion process.

The new system is similar to the current one in that it incorporates old elements that we're used to using: the aiming of the directional scanner, for instance. But the primary difference between the two (aside from a much more useful UI) is that this new scanner is PASSIVE. Instead of having to keep clicking "scan", the scanner automatically updates its information at a rate that you specify (from 2-second intervals up to 30-second intervals). The key here, though, is that the faster your system updates, the less accurate your information is--the slower it updates, the more accurate the information. Moreover, there is no maximum range on the scanner; rather, the accuracy of your scan is directly tied to the distance your target is from you (among other things). I'll get to the actual calculations in the next section.

The new system also adds several aspects of information that are not available at the moment. For instance, with an accurate scan, this system can not only tell a pilot the (more or less) exact location of a ship, but whether the ship is currently piloted. This enables pirates to get a read on how many targets are actually in space, instead of having to sift through the crap floating around POSs. And little to no functionality is really lost with this system, because you may still make custom filters of what you want displayed or use your overview settings just like normal.

Overall, these changes enable a pirate to gain faster, more reliable intel from a greater range (if you know what you're doing) while carebears gain a system scanner that they don't have to keep checking over and over again. The caveat here is that the broader the scan angle, the weaker the scan, so any pilot who is rapidly scanning 360 while ratting probably won't even see the pirate until the pirate is about to land. As it should be, of course.

(If you're a 0.0 nut, replace "pirate" with "PvPer" if you want to know what I'm talking about)

The UI:

First off, forgive my photoshop skills.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

As you can see, the information is displayed in a graphical representation of the solar system (just like the "system map", except that it's always viewed from above). The pilot will be able to scroll in/out at will--this does not impact the information he gets in the slightest, it only allows him to view the rest of the solar system or get a close-up of a specific cluster. The scanner angle and direction is superimposed on this map, giving a clear view of the area of space being scanned (when scanning 360 degrees, this obviously disappears).

(Continued)

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:27:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 31/08/2011 23:11:11

The pilot above was scanning specifically for ships (as shown in the filter area). Accurately scanned ships provide the ship type, active status (active ships are displayed as green icons, while inactive ones are blue--if there isn't enough information, the scan defaults to blue) and precise distance/location from you at the time of scanning, though the less accurate the scan, the less information you receive. Similar to scan probes, a better scan displays a better indication of the ships' location--the worse the scan, the less accurate the displayed position.

The Crunch:

I wanted a system that depends strongly on the ship you're in and the ship your target is in; I wanted frigates to be harder to scan that Battleships and I wanted ships with greater sensor integrity to get faster, more accurate information. I also want it balanced. I've succeeded in 3 out of 4, I believe.

The scanning function is a product of 7 variables and returns the value of X (this will be important in determining the information gained).

In the below function, K is the class constant (proportional to the size of the ship [between .5 and 2, most likely]) and the Scan Angle Constant is a number dependent on scan angle, as shown below:

360 = 360 (As you can see, the ratios decrease with angle. This is for balance at long ranges)
180 = 216
90 =130
60 = 80
30 = 50
15 = 35
5 = 25

The function is this:

(Target Ship's Sig Radius)^1.05 x(Scanning Ship's Scan Resolution^.95 x Sensor Strength)x(Refresh Rate^.9)x K
(Scan Angle Constant)x(Distance of target from scanning ship)^1.2 x(30)

= X

  • If 0<X<20, the target ship does not show up on scan at all.

  • If 20<X<40, a ship is displayed, though not the type or class.

  • If 40<X<60, the ship's class (though not type) is displayed.

  • If 60<X<80, the ship's type is displayed.

  • If 80<X, the active status of the ship is displayed.


Whenever a signature is displayed, a location is also displayed graphically. But this location is not necessarily accurate--it is a point picked at random within a sphere centered on the actual ship with a radius of:

(100/X)(50,000,000 km)

This means that the more accurate your scan, the more accurate the position displayed; the less accurate, the less accurate the position. It will never give you a warpable result (you'll still need probes for that), but it will still allow you to pinpoint a celestial with a good scan.

Also, to avoid flooding your scanner, it would automatically ignore all ships on the same grid with you. And to make things more interesting have ships inside POS shields take a hit to scan res, 50% from small towers and 60% from large towers. That way, you will only be able to "see" a short distance away from your moon unless you come outside your shield, which is a win for everybody.

(continued)

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 31/08/2011 00:00:17
Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 28/08/2011 02:29:25
So what does this all mean?

Alright, I'll give you some examples. Let's say you're piloting a classic PvP Rupture. You jump through a gate into a new system (you can't tell if there are any pilots there, but let's say there's a ratting Caracal in a belt 8 AUs away). You open your scanner, toss up a 180-degree scan with a 2-second refresh rate. Bam; a blue dot pops up on your screen about half an AU from a cluster 8 AUs away. You quickly narrow your scan angle to 60 centered on that cluster. The scanner refreshes rapidly and displays a green dot--a Caracal, and it's active. Its signature is 34,000,000 km away from two belts in the same cluster. Deciding not to risk revealing yourself yet, you narrow the scan to 15 degree centered on the cluster. A second later, the green dot has shifted position, sitting directly on belt VI-1; you engage warp. This whole process has taken you about 10 seconds.

For the Caracal's part, he's ratting. So he has his scanner open to 360 degrees. He knows that the faster it refreshes, the worse it runs, so he has it set to scan every 5 seconds. Seconds after you uncloak 8 AUs away, a blue dot appears on the Caracal's scanner about an AU away from a gate. He's ratting, and doesn't notice the dot until the second run, at which point you're only 5 AUs from his position. This time, he sees the dot 5 AUs from him in the direction of the gate, and it now displays as a Cruiser. Spooked, he calls in his drones, which takes another 10 seconds, and begins initiating warp. Your dot vanishes as you appear on his overview, flashy and ready to kill.

The important thing to keep in mind here is that he only initiated warp when you were already in warp, 5-8 AUs away, already with a bead on his position. With the current system, a paranoid ratter would warp as soon as he sees you in local, so it's a significant bonus for the pirates.

It's also a bonus for the ratters, though, because they don't need to keep scanning for probes--it can do that for them. The way to balance this, of course, would be to give probes an exceedingly small sig radius, so they would only appear on scan when they were very close to the target (or if the target was specifically setup to detect them; see below).

Miscellaneous Notes:

The biggest problem with this system is that it requires balancing. With the numbers as they are, it's possible to officer fit a Crow to be able to pinpoint anything within 60 AU of it at 360 degrees, giving a massive advantage to any gang with such a dedicated scout. This system works well with regular numbers, making BSs even harder to solo in (because they're both easier to see and can't see as far as other ships) and making scout frigates more valuable. But the ability to get 8000 scan resolution and 35 sensor strength on an Interceptor really needs some balancing, because it essentially gives anyone with a dedicated alt free-reign of the system.

The cycle time of the scanner also needs to be balanced. Aside from possible server load, a 30-second cycle time might be a little too short to warrant the massive bonus in scanning potential. Perhaps a mild dropoff in return per second of scan time? These are questions the Devs will have to answer.

(continued)

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:31:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 30/08/2011 22:48:01
Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 30/08/2011 22:46:46
Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 30/08/2011 21:38:17
The Net Impact:

First off, with the removal of local, players will no longer be forewarned of any and all danger. In order to check if a system is safe, they'll have to bloody undock and check for themselves, which will lead to more PvP.

Secondly, it will replace the finicky, nonsense directional scanner with a powerful information tool that can serve the purpose of both locating vessels and the players inside of them (perhaps a really good scan result could display the name and pilot of a ship--I haven't thought that far ahead yet). It does away with the need to be constantly clicking the same button over and over again.

It gives smaller ships a greater role in fleets (especially in 0.0). With this system, a frigate will not only be able to scan with greater accuracy, it will be able to get closer to the enemy undetected.

It ninja nerfs capital ships, as they will be visible from a very long way away. Any fleet or POS containing a capital ship would be immediately apparent.

It makes it possible to make an almost invisible Ceptor gang when boosted by a cloaking Loki and with Halo implants. The gang could be on an opponent before they even appeared on his scan.

There are probably a lot of other immediate impacts on the game, but I stayed up unil 4 AM working on this, so I'll leave it to you guys to point them out. I'd really like your input on this, because I think it could really change EVE for the better, and with enough support the Devs will listen. The time is ripe for change, and I believe that this is said change.

Fly safe,
-Viv


Addendums:

-There should be a toggle-able option called "fleet member visibility" that, when active, shows all your current fleet members as purple dots in space, no matter their distance or whether they're cloaked or not.

-Active cloaking devices should reduce your scan resolution inversely to its meta-level; T1 cloaks reducing your scan res by 60% and Cov Ops cloaks by 10%. Anything that gets rid of local is a major boost to cloaks, so this small change will help mitigate the rampant cloak abuse that is likely to become the norm (look at W-space if you don't believe me).

-Sensor boosters/ECCM will have to be stacking-nerfed in order to avoid ridiculously potent scanning setups. That, or scan information can be asymptotic, with the better scan result simply getting closer to a pre-defined maximum.

Nikuno
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:29:00 - [5]
 


Nikuno
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:34:00 - [6]
 

Your main flaw sits in the multiplication of ship scan resolution and sensor strength making the crow you mention far too powerful at this job and the battleships too poor. Personally I think the larger ships should be BETTER at scanning out than the small ones, being able to house larger and more sophisticated sensor systems. I think you need to add either a reducing factor for scan res, or an increasing factor for sensor strength, or a combination. Then include some constant to restore the overall ranges you feel you want scanned.

Sindeya Shimaya
Posted - 2011.08.28 10:19:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sindeya Shimaya on 28/08/2011 10:19:48
While I salute your dedication and in-depth explanation of your idea, let me add some critique.

1) The D-Scanner can filter results. Ever seen the "Use Active Overview Settings" ?

2) You speak about the immersion process being hindered by D-scan looking the same on every ship. This has got to be the first time I hear a complaint like this. Please don't fill this with random invalid arguments.

3) You said yourself in the end. It's inbalanced in its current form. Don't recommend something that you know is flawed, go back to basic concepts and save the specific formulas for later. This not only saves your time, but it also reduces the risk of people hanging up on that particular formula (which is not as important as the general concept).

4) Out of curiosity, do you know W-space has different local mechanics? Consider it, and think how your scanner would impact that. Or whether it's really necessary at all.

5) You can easily explain Local by say "beacons" that exist in every K-space that automatically log and register arriving/departing ships. (One could argue this happened when the gate network was constructed). Since W-space is technically "unknown" - no such beacons exist in these systems hence different local mechanics.

My suggestion would be far more simple: Make 0.0 systems like W-space in regards to local. Suddenly you cannot magically see people unless you actually use probes - which is how the game was designed anyway. With my story-explanation that would fit, as 0.0 is not populated and controlled. Pirates could have destroyed the beacons a long time ago. ;-)

Edit: Fixed sentence in 5)

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:50:00 - [8]
 

The UI is a blue question mark?

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:28:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Rina Asanari on 29/08/2011 12:55:54
Originally by: Vivien Sureflight
Okay guys. So we all know that Local needs to go. The question that still remains, however, is what to replace it with?


Do we? Speak for yourself.

Whoever feels that local is a pain in the backside may move into W-space. Lowsec and 0.0 may be lawless space, but they do have a working communication grid that logs present ships and capsuleers.

By the way, if you argue that the communication grid may have been sabotaged/ceased to function long ago, why not making something like "communication beacon" (which enables local as it is) as a souvereignty infrastructure upgrade?

I think that would make much more sense. And if someone wants to stay hidden and enters a well-developed system, wether Empire or player-held, tough luck.


ThisIsntMyMain
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:11:00 - [10]
 

Look this is a really cool idea. It sounds neat and has a great interface. It also gets rid of local which lots of us like to b**ch about. Lets think about how its gets used and abused ...

1. CCP Nerfs Local. It gets replaced with a ship scanner that every PvP player hits the minute that we jump into system. Only undocked and uncloaked ships are shown.
2. The mining bots hit scanner automatically every 2 seconds. As soon as local spikes they warp.
3. Real players undocked in system running sanctums forget to hit the scan button, get ganked and either rage quit or buy a bot.
4. Real PvP will still only happen when you run into another gang or stop in a station system and troll the locals (that you no longer can see in local so may or may not be there) into getting a gang together to fight you.

Result ... More buttons to press for easier ganks but harder PvP. I don't see this as desirable.

I agree, local as an intel tool is not the greatest solution. But if you nerf it completely, the situation will get worse, not better. Fights will be harder to find not easier.

I still think that jumping through a stargate or logging into a station is the only thing that should add you to the local channel. Yes, that makes Black Ops really really useful because they only appear on your overview without warning seconds before you die, and also makes AFK cloaking completely utterly totally pointless.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.29 16:18:00 - [11]
 

Wait a minute... people in wormholes can gather all the intel they need without local, including whether or not the ships at a pos are manned or not, yet "professional" pirates would need special tools to do that without local?

Look, we don't need tools screwing up the charm of wormholes by giving away way too much unearned intel. You want to learn something, get your arse out there and learn it. You have plenty of tools now without the crutch local gives. Time to lose the binky, grow a pair, drop the training wheels and any other cliche` that can be deemed appropriate.

Donot Shootme
Posted - 2011.08.29 18:34:00 - [12]
 

I like the idea a lot!!! Crappy scanner needs update, this could be a way to go!

Aaliane
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:40:00 - [13]
 

I give this idea +1 Nicely done.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:04:00 - [14]
 

The current DScan is quite a useful tool as is, and gives you plenty of intel if you use it properly. Hell, this weekend I used it to scan down a cargo container that had been floating around in my hole long enough to annoy the crap out of me.

Dscan works great as a tool, not so well by a tool.

Aaliane
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:37:00 - [15]
 

Yes, it works ok, but it still is "MS Excel" kind on UI in a moder MMO. I have used dirscan all my EvE life as lowsec pirate.. daily.. constantly when playing. Looking targets, gathering intel etc.. But it still is a crappy looking and unflexible tool.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:44:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aaliane
Yes, it works ok, but it still is "MS Excel" kind on UI in a moder MMO. I have used dirscan all my EvE life as lowsec pirate.. daily.. constantly when playing. Looking targets, gathering intel etc.. But it still is a crappy looking and unflexible tool.


Hmm... we must use it differently. I've found it flexible enough, as I mentioned, to scan down containers, which nothing else can do. A covops can hop into a hole and using only dscan locate every pos in the system, see who's there and active, identify any ships not at the pos and often be able to locate them if they're at a combat site running Sleepers. Could they make it "prettier"? Perhaps... but I'll take clear and straightforward over pretty any time.

Of course, that's opinion at that point.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:00:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 30/08/2011 17:01:57

I don't think local needs to go in all cases. I don't really mind it staying in high sec for instance. I do strongely believe that cloaked ships need to drop from local anywhere they are used.

The free intel local provides makes no sense in deeper areas of space. low sec local should be different than null sec local which should be different from high sec local.




Sabrina Al'Kian
Posted - 2011.08.30 21:52:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Sabrina Al''Kian on 30/08/2011 23:58:34
Edited by: Sabrina Al''Kian on 30/08/2011 21:53:35
Originally by: ThisIsntMyMain
Look this is a really cool idea. It sounds neat and has a great interface. It also gets rid of local which lots of us like to b**ch about. Lets think about how its gets used and abused ...

1. CCP Nerfs Local. It gets replaced with a ship scanner that every PvP player hits the minute that we jump into system. Only undocked and uncloaked ships are shown.
2. The mining bots hit scanner automatically every 2 seconds. As soon as local spikes they warp.
3. Real players undocked in system running sanctums forget to hit the scan button, get ganked and either rage quit or buy a bot.
4. Real PvP will still only happen when you run into another gang or stop in a station system and troll the locals (that you no longer can see in local so may or may not be there) into getting a gang together to fight you.

Result ... More buttons to press for easier ganks but harder PvP. I don't see this as desirable.




You do realize that in the proposed system you wouldn't have a button with which to scan? The scanner would update AUTOMATICALLY, making no difference between the information a player receives and the information a bot receives.

As for "real" PvP only happening through chance encounters at gates: that's not an information problem, that's a player problem. The fact is that players aren't going to knowingly engage obviously one-sided odds--just like now. But I think this could actually increase the likelihood of "real" PvP because it A) doesn't show the pilots in the system, only their ships, so you have to make educated guesses as to whether the pilots are affiliated, and B) smaller ships have a greater chance of slipping under the radar and getting the drop on larger ships, making scouting/tackling easier. I don't really see how this is a problem.


Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.30 21:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nikuno
Your main flaw sits in the multiplication of ship scan resolution and sensor strength making the crow you mention far too powerful at this job and the battleships too poor. Personally I think the larger ships should be BETTER at scanning out than the small ones, being able to house larger and more sophisticated sensor systems. I think you need to add either a reducing factor for scan res, or an increasing factor for sensor strength, or a combination. Then include some constant to restore the overall ranges you feel you want scanned.


Thanks. I'll rebalance it and update the function in a sec.

-Viv

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
The current DScan is quite a useful tool as is, and gives you plenty of intel if you use it properly. Hell, this weekend I used it to scan down a cargo container that had been floating around in my hole long enough to annoy the crap out of me.

Dscan works great as a tool, not so well by a tool.


Of course it works. It's been working for years. But there is an issue in its current form: It's ugly. And the information received takes a lot of practice to sort through efficiently. My system is designed specifically to fix this flaw, but it also introduces several changes which I see as improvements: it tells the user which ships are active, it runs I'm real time without having to click "scan" over and over again, and it gives an integrated system map that enables the user to quickly and efficiently get a sense of the layout of the system.

Yes, there are ways to get all that information now, but it either takes a lot longer and a lot more work, or a bunch of guesswork. Sure, there are things that can be improved on, but I think in practice it will turn out to be a MUCH more useable tool than the D-scan.

-Viv

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:29:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 31/08/2011 00:07:31
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Wait a minute... people in wormholes can gather all the intel they need without local, including whether or not the ships at a pos are manned or not, yet "professional" pirates would need special tools to do that without local?

Look, we don't need tools screwing up the charm of wormholes by giving away way too much unearned intel. You want to learn something, get your arse out there and learn it. You have plenty of tools now without the crutch local gives. Time to lose the binky, grow a pair, drop the training wheels and any other cliche` that can be deemed appropriate.


OF COURSE you can get the info now. The question is: is it efficient?

I've done my fair share of wormholing, and the reason it works is that everyone who isn't PvEing fits a cloak. EVERYONE. This allows you to use the limited tools at your disposal to get any necessary information without being spotted by the people you're hunting. That works because your prey is always in specific sites--if they aren't there, 99% of the time they're at a POS and not worth your time.

Aside from guesswork, there's no efficient tool for separating active and inactive players in the rest of EVE. This change enables people who hunt others for a living to not waste more time than is necessary finding targets.

By the way, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. This system won't reveal cloaked players, so it doesn't give your targets any more of an advantage over you, and a targeted (read: 5-15 degree) scan will actually give you an effective range of greater than 14 AUs, allowing you to scan a system more efficiently from afar. Why the hate?

-Viv

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:02:00 - [22]
 

Questions? Comments? Thoughtless ranting against change?

Post it here!

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:10:00 - [23]
 

This part here...
Quote:
Alright, I'll give you some examples. Let's say you're piloting a classic PvP Rupture. You jump through a gate into a new system (you can't tell if there are any pilots there, but let's say there's a ratting Caracal in a belt 8 AUs away). You open your scanner, toss up a 180-degree scan with a 2-second refresh rate. Bam; a blue dot pops up on your screen about half an AU from a cluster 8 AUs away. You quickly narrow your scan angle to 60 centered on that cluster. The scanner refreshes rapidly and displays a green dot--a Caracal, and it's active. Its signature is 34,000,000 km away from two belts in the same cluster. Deciding not to risk revealing yourself yet, you narrow the scan to 15 degree centered on the cluster. A second later, the green dot has shifted position, sitting directly on belt VI-1; you engage warp. This whole process has taken you about 10 seconds.


DScan already does this, you know that, right? You enter a system, see someone on dscan, set it to 5 degress and point at the belts until you find him. Takes a little longer than above, you actually have to do the work to find the belt by looking at them and clicking, but it's just as fast and effective.


Valkyriane
Pirate Retirement Home
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:34:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Valkyriane on 31/08/2011 15:39:30
Edited by: Valkyriane on 31/08/2011 15:37:54
Edited by: Valkyriane on 31/08/2011 15:36:16
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
This part here...
Quote:
Alright, I'll give you some examples. Let's say you're piloting a classic PvP Rupture. You jump through a gate into a new system (you can't tell if there are any pilots there, but let's say there's a ratting Caracal in a belt 8 AUs away). You open your scanner, toss up a 180-degree scan with a 2-second refresh rate. Bam; a blue dot pops up on your screen about half an AU from a cluster 8 AUs away. You quickly narrow your scan angle to 60 centered on that cluster. The scanner refreshes rapidly and displays a green dot--a Caracal, and it's active. Its signature is 34,000,000 km away from two belts in the same cluster. Deciding not to risk revealing yourself yet, you narrow the scan to 15 degree centered on the cluster. A second later, the green dot has shifted position, sitting directly on belt VI-1; you engage warp. This whole process has taken you about 10 seconds.


DScan already does this, you know that, right? You enter a system, see someone on dscan, set it to 5 degress and point at the belts until you find him. Takes a little longer than above, you actually have to do the work to find the belt by looking at them and clicking, but it's just as fast and effective.




So you really think professional long time pirate dont know exactly how DSCAN works ATM? And no, while it doest the job, it is not efficient and the UI itself is from prehistoric era. Very Happy Also the point is partly, no local and no limit to dscan distance... Just checked, character from january this year.. Next.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Valkyriane

So you really think professional long time pirate dont know exactly how DSCAN works ATM? And no, while it doest the job, it is not efficient and the UI itself is from prehistoric era. Very Happy Also the point is partly, no local and no limit to dscan distance... Just checked, character from january this year.. Next.


You looked up my indy character? How sweet! Really, I'm blushing.

Dscan (and probes) are daily use items. If you use it for more than a passing click, it's quite efficient at what it does. It gives plenty of intel to get the job done. We don't need the range increased, or pretty lights or little puffs of pine-scented aroma adding fluff to the system. We have data at the click of a button right there in black and white.

"Professional" pirate, eh? That explains it. Someone looking to enhance the game in their own self-interest regardless of what other aspects they may diminish. Too lazy to warp 30Au and check those other belts? Too freakin' bad. Want to search the whole wormhole with a single click? Sorry... leave your escape hatch to high sec, grow some balls and fly in there and scan. Back in the day we had to fly around systems with freakin' binoculars looking for ships, now everyone wants things to be softer and easier.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:09:00 - [26]
 

I see no need to get rid of the current system. I rather them fix what is actually wrong with the game.

Granted, if done properly, no local might make things more interesting. It will also make them more of a headache if done improperly. And as CCP learned with Supers any changes to the gaming world has a butterfly effect..... unintended consequences. Changing local and Dscan is just to big of change atm when other things needs majorly fixed. Like all of sov warfare.


It requires a perfect balancing act. You want to make easy but not passive to gain basic system intel and with more effort the better the intel. You dont want to make it to easy on pvpers. A ratter should get basic intel their is threat without spaming buttons every 2 seconds before the pvper has time to gather intel, locate the ratter and reach him. Otherwise your going to end up with alot of frustrated ratters that go back to empire and make isk running missions instead.

Honestly its not really going to solve anything to work properly except make it more hassle for everyone to check intel. And both victim and pvper benefit from local, not just the victim. And if it doesnt work properly, people who rat and run sites are either going to complain it makes it to easy for gankers or pvpers are going to complain it going to make it to easier for ratters to get intel on threats.

Its a much more complicated issue than removing local and replacing it with some fancy version of dscan. I would like to see intel( in the gathering sense not the count local sense) be a bit more important though.

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:31:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I see no need to get rid of the current system. I rather them fix what is actually wrong with the game.



I think the ability to immediately know which players are in system from anywhere in system, including inside a station, is something wrong with the game.

I understand that it's a delicate balance, and that's what I'm hoping to achieve. In order to do that, however, I need to be able to address specific concerns, not just "I think it's too hard to balance". The point is, I'm trying. And I could use all the help I can get to make it so.

Yes, local benefits both PvPers and PvEers; it let's the latter immediately know when a threat has entered system and act accordingly, and it allows PvPers to not have to waste time hunting in an empty system. It also allows PvPers to flee like a carebear when a larger gang enters system.

I believe EVE should be a PvP-centric game. I believe that anything that increases player conflict should be nurtured. And I think CCP shares this belief--if they don't, they can certainly ignore this proposal.

-Viv

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:15:00 - [28]
 

Updated the "Crunch" to reflect further balancing. It's still not perfect, but it's getting better. When my power company gets the grid fixed (possibly a few more days) I'll give you guys a table of numbers to look at.

Thanks for the comments so far. Keep 'em coming.

-Viv

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:25:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 31/08/2011 23:25:48
Originally by: Vivien Sureflight
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I see no need to get rid of the current system. I rather them fix what is actually wrong with the game.



I think the ability to immediately know which players are in system from anywhere in system, including inside a station, is something wrong with the game.

I understand that it's a delicate balance, and that's what I'm hoping to achieve. In order to do that, however, I need to be able to address specific concerns, not just "I think it's too hard to balance". The point is, I'm trying. And I could use all the help I can get to make it so.

Yes, local benefits both PvPers and PvEers; it let's the latter immediately know when a threat has entered system and act accordingly, and it allows PvPers to not have to waste time hunting in an empty system. It also allows PvPers to flee like a carebear when a larger gang enters system.

I believe EVE should be a PvP-centric game. I believe that anything that increases player conflict should be nurtured. And I think CCP shares this belief--if they don't, they can certainly ignore this proposal.

-Viv


It would be something that has been broken for a long time then. Regardless you know Greyscale has a thread on changes to intel gathering in 0.0 right? Its up their^^^^. I believe they are working on reworking intel gathering and the local thing as part of a complete rework(V2.0 since V1.0 failed) of 0.0. I am guessing it is either still in the planning stages or the infant stages. I dont look for it till at least the summer xpack or next winters. I doubt it will make it into this winters xpack. It might though.

Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:34:00 - [30]
 


Okay guys. So we all know that Local needs to go.

Speak for yourself, ******. It's our lifeline in 0.0. Remove local, you break the whole system. And tbh, scaning while ratting and checking comms would be a total mind****. Using directionnal while ratting, warping, chilling, just trying to UNDOCK, not knowing if there's someone out there waiting for you to undock to pop your 15B filled JF, oh **** yea, the idea of the century!


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