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blankseplocked Distances: Making blobs unable to fight effectively
 
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 27/08/2011 19:53:37
I've proposed similar ideas before, and I will do it again.

Every ship currently has a 'sphere', and if 2 ships 'sphere's overlap, DESTINY, the game physics engine, will move them apart.

Keep that in mind for a while.

---

Ranges, and the dictating thereof, is very important, especially with the bigger ships. A Sniper Battleship fleet will want to be between 150-180KM off their enemies to do damage. The biggest advantage of 'the blob', indifferent of which type, is that you can dictate ranges, as well as call 'primaries' which everyone should be able to hit.

While this isn't inherently bad, it does mean that, within certain boundaries, the bigger blob wins, as long as both blobs keep in range and keep calling primaries.

---

Now what if the sphere I mentioned in the first bit, relatively increases in size if the amount of ships on-grid increases?

I don't know the exact numbers, but what if, once you have 1000 ships on grid, battleships get e.g. pushed 1 kilometer away from each other. That means a 500 ship blob would on average take 500 kilometers across.

That would make it very hard to call primaries if they used to be all on top of each other.

Furthermore, it promotes more smaller squads working together, surrounding the target fleet. In that case, you're still dictating range, but each squad will need their own warpins and their own primaries.

As it's relative, smaller ships will only be affected relatively. Frigates will still be able to go through the BS blob without problem, causing mayhem or whatever they are doing.

EDIT: In addition, by also supporting this on gates, moving a small gang suddenly becomes a lot more useful compared to a big gang, as big gang ships might end up outside of jump range altogether!

---

My final thoughts go out to Bombs. They will need a radical rethinking if this system would be placed into effect. One way to fix them would be to increase their range relative to the people on-grid, but this makes absolutely no sense in a roleplay form. Open to suggestions.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:03:00 - [2]
 

Let's see if you do it. Explain to me why having more friends on my side willing to fight the other side makes it something needing nerfing.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:13:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Let's see if you do it. Explain to me why having more friends on my side willing to fight the other side makes it something needing nerfing.


This idea doesn't nerf it. It makes it harder to get there, and it makes it harder to fight. BUT, if you have the superior tactics AND the superior numbers, then you will definetly win.

In addition, I just don't like Goons. or BoB. or any other entity. Hell, if it weren't for the ISKies I wouldn't have any blues.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:27:00 - [4]
 

Fair answer.Just having more and more of a hard time with people:

"Nerf blobbing!"
"why?"
"Because everybody else said to!! QQ"

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Fair answer.Just having more and more of a hard time with people:

"Nerf blobbing!"
"why?"
"Because everybody else said to!! QQ"


Nope, not it for me :P

But, i think EVE can do more to promote tactics above blobs and numbers, simply because it's more interesting.

If you bring double the numbers, you've got double the chance to win anyway, least we can do is to make the battle more interesting, FC's more burnt out etcetera.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.27 21:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: Feligast
Fair answer.Just having more and more of a hard time with people:

"Nerf blobbing!"
"why?"
"Because everybody else said to!! QQ"


Nope, not it for me :P

But, i think EVE can do more to promote tactics above blobs and numbers, simply because it's more interesting.

If you bring double the numbers, you've got double the chance to win anyway, least we can do is to make the battle more interesting, FC's more burnt out etcetera.


Exactly HOW does ****ing off hundreds of people at once make something more interesting for them?

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: Feligast
Fair answer.Just having more and more of a hard time with people:

"Nerf blobbing!"
"why?"
"Because everybody else said to!! QQ"


Nope, not it for me :P

But, i think EVE can do more to promote tactics above blobs and numbers, simply because it's more interesting.

If you bring double the numbers, you've got double the chance to win anyway, least we can do is to make the battle more interesting, FC's more burnt out etcetera.


Exactly HOW does ****ing off hundreds of people at once make something more interesting for them?


Use a different tactic. Adapt or die, that used to be the EVE motto anyway.

You want to move hundreds of ships? Make a long line, of say 15 ships each. You won't be THAT much slower.

Now look at it from another perspective. You are a small gang, of say 20 people. Recons or Cruisers or whatnot. Right now, if there's a fleet of hundreds of ships coming through, there's really only 1 thing you can do: Hide. Or at most hope lag creates some stragglers.
In my proposal, they'd see groups of 15 battleships each. Engage -> ??? -> Profit

You don't want that to happen? Adapt or die, maybe you want to add a few recons to each group.

You want to win a fleet fight? Instead of sitting in a tight bunch of battleships like a dopey, spread out, surround the target, use actual tactics instead of whining about change.

*sigh* republicans ;)

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:46:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 28/08/2011 00:46:58
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 28/08/2011 00:46:45
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Use a different tactic. Adapt or die, that used to be the EVE motto anyway.

You want to move hundreds of ships? Make a long line, of say 15 ships each. You won't be THAT much slower.

Now look at it from another perspective. You are a small gang, of say 20 people. Recons or Cruisers or whatnot. Right now, if there's a fleet of hundreds of ships coming through, there's really only 1 thing you can do: Hide. Or at most hope lag creates some stragglers.
In my proposal, they'd see groups of 15 battleships each. Engage -> ??? -> Profit

You don't want that to happen? Adapt or die, maybe you want to add a few recons to each group.

You want to win a fleet fight? Instead of sitting in a tight bunch of battleships like a dopey, spread out, surround the target, use actual tactics instead of whining about change.

*sigh* republicans ;)


You have 100 people, the enemy has 500 people. Don't want to recruit, train, outfit, and lead more? Adapt or die.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.28 07:14:00 - [9]
 

I am amused by the
Rock > Scissors is fine, nerf Paper
kind of responses. Not just here but:

0.0 Carebears don't want local to go
Cloakers don't want anything done to their cloaks
0.0 Blobs don't want their precious blobs to change

but meh, fine, I won't be bothered by it... I'll just bust up your gatecamp with my blackops..

PewPewYou
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:39:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: PewPewYou on 30/08/2011 09:43:11
Not a bad idea really.

This may actually be better then the idea I had about limiting max target locks on someone by sig radius as part of this thread.

Post a link to here from there if you want. I do like this idea - it would be hard to exploit.

I would suggest 2 things though, have it move squads as a whole, so the squads always remain together, and have it not affect small (or cloaked) ships at all.

Also expand it to gate jump-ins. Have ships spawn in the same positions as the rest of their squad around the gate.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 10:57:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 30/08/2011 10:58:41
Originally by: PewPewYou
have it move squads as a whole, so the squads always remain together

The basic premesis of my idea is to use current game mechanics to push ships further away. Adding if's and buts will only make the basic idea harder to implement, and easier to exploit (What if you have 10 motherships in your squad? I want them pushed off like the next sucker)
Obviously, within those premesis it should be able to at least keep squads in proximity of each other, even in a bigger fleet warp.

Quote:
, and have it not affect small (or cloaked) ships at all.

My basic idea was: The bigger the ship, the more resounded the effect. I tend to disagree about cloaked ships, cause what if you decide to proto-cloak 300 battleships within 3 km from each other, and as soon as you need it to you make an instant warp bubble just by decloaking every single ship?

Even so, I can agree that on small, frigate sized ships the effect should be neglectible or not at all there. On cruisers it should be noticable, but not game-changing, on battleships it should promote different kinds of tactics and, well, I can't even begin to phantom how a fleet of 100 carriers would behave.

Quote:
Also expand it to gate jump-ins. Have ships spawn in the same positions as the rest of their squad around the gate.


EDIT: Quote failure :)

Yes, this should apply to jump ins as well, though I'm doubtful whether it should be an effect before or after you land/uncloak.

Aesis Tori
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.08.30 11:21:00 - [12]
 

This is one of the more logical suggestions I've heard on these forums.

Huge, compact blobs of battleships and capitals looks ******ed and makes no sense for ships of epic mass.


Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.08.30 11:51:00 - [13]
 

Its hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this -
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
e.g. pushed 1 kilometer away from each other. That means a 500 ship blob would on average take 500 kilometers across.


You know we are in 'Space' right... not on a single lane road.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2011.08.30 11:56:00 - [14]
 

I've had similar ideas, but instead of bouncing people I suggested reduction of weapon range. So 2 big blobs would have to move around on grid in order to actually hit eachother. Also opens up for splitting a inferior fleet into 2 and attacking a superior fleet from the flanks, in case they have lined up in a straight line.

So instead of spreading the ships out, just reduce the weapon ranges.
Changes always requires (re)balance. Having shorter ranges (max of 50km) would mean speed should be looked in to, webbers, tracking disruptors and enchancers.. pretty much everything.
But besides that, I think it would be a good idea and a way to fight the "boring blob" Smile

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 12:33:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jint Hikaru
Its hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this -
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
e.g. pushed 1 kilometer away from each other. That means a 500 ship blob would on average take 500 kilometers across.


You know we are in 'Space' right... not on a single lane road.


You are right, however, I was too lazy to make the maths. But even though my math is wrong, the idea isn't that bad, is it?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.30 12:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

You are right, however, I was too lazy to make the maths. But even though my math is wrong, the idea isn't that bad, is it?

it is. because it lacks viable reasoning what you want fixing and why its needed at all. Some people play small scale because they think its more interesting, some other people prefer sov wars with hundreds of people involved. What you want is the opposite group of people getting nerfed without a good reason.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 12:45:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

You are right, however, I was too lazy to make the maths. But even though my math is wrong, the idea isn't that bad, is it?

it is. because it lacks viable reasoning what you want fixing and why its needed at all. Some people play small scale because they think its more interesting, some other people prefer sov wars with hundreds of people involved. What you want is the opposite group of people getting nerfed without a good reason.


In this case, I would like to oppose your use of the word nerfing.

A nerf would be to decrease the amount of players able to fight in a fleet.

This does not do that.

You can still have 500 allies on grid. However, you need to be smarter how to position them, surround your enemy and all that.

It's a difference in mechanics, sure, but it's not a nerf.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.30 12:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

A nerf would be to decrease the amount of players able to fight in a fleet.

This does not do that.

You can still have 500 allies on grid. However, you need to be smarter how to position them, surround your enemy and all that.

It's a difference in mechanics, sure, but it's not a nerf.

hilarious, how many people have trouble understanding the definition of a nerf.

Many people requiring more efforts to achieve something -> more of them fail doing so -> effectivity drop of such fleets -> nerf!

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

But, i think EVE can do more to promote tactics above blobs and numbers, simply because it's more interesting.



"God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best."
Voltaire


Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

But, i think EVE can do more to promote tactics above blobs and numbers, simply because it's more interesting.



"God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best."
Voltaire




"Doctor, nothing will stop it."
The Blob (movie), 1958.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

In this case, I would like to oppose your use of the word nerfing.

A nerf would be to decrease the amount of players able to fight in a fleet.

This does not do that.

You can still have 500 allies on grid. However, you need to be smarter how to position them, surround your enemy and all that.

It's a difference in mechanics, sure, but it's not a nerf.


I could see logi pilots arguing that this is a nerf when they can no longer reach all the ships they're trying to cover.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst

I could see logi pilots arguing that this is a nerf when they can no longer reach all the ships they're trying to cover.

not to mention all those combat pilots argueing about not being able to hit targets because they are too far off

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

In this case, I would like to oppose your use of the word nerfing.

A nerf would be to decrease the amount of players able to fight in a fleet.

This does not do that.

You can still have 500 allies on grid. However, you need to be smarter how to position them, surround your enemy and all that.

It's a difference in mechanics, sure, but it's not a nerf.


I could see logi pilots arguing that this is a nerf when they can no longer reach all the ships they're trying to cover.


Ah yes, but now you're adding something I hadn't considered, and has a similar problem to SB Bombs.

But, to counteract, a Logistics, being a cruiser, will be able to fly through the battleships at least a good bit easier then the battleships itself. I'm not saying logistics isn't something specifically needing a look-at in the idea, but there are ways to counteract this.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ingvar Angst

I could see logi pilots arguing that this is a nerf when they can no longer reach all the ships they're trying to cover.

not to mention all those combat pilots argueing about not being able to hit targets because they are too far off


They could, of course, move to another position...

But fine, I'm tired of this 'nerf-nonerf' discussions. You republicans don't like changes, i can live with that.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:48:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 30/08/2011 13:48:20
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

But fine, I'm tired of this 'nerf-nonerf' discussions. You republicans don't like changes, i can live with that.


*looks at the topic title*
sure its no nerf?

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:10:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 30/08/2011 13:48:20
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

But fine, I'm tired of this 'nerf-nonerf' discussions. You republicans don't like changes, i can live with that.


*looks at the topic title*
sure its no nerf?


There's a difference between a 500 man fleet

and a blob.

This proposition does not stop you from bringing your friends. It does stop you from blobbing said friends on 1 spot.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:02:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

There's a difference between a 500 man fleet and a blob.


Oh I assumed 500 man is meant as blob.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:13:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
republicans


Why DO you keep using this word anyway?

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:23:00 - [29]
 

Because it's indicative of his mentality: if you disagree with me, you're the lowest form of life on Earth.

American politics in a nutshell, actually.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:02:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Because it's indicative of his mentality: if you disagree with me, you're the lowest form of life on Earth.

American politics in a nutshell, actually.


Ah, if only you weren't a Goon ;)

(and yeah, this is actually just a shameless bump. sue me)


 

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