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Ganymede Sanders
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:48:00 - [1]
 

Hello,

I've been mining high sec ores for months. I multibox, and find it to be a pleasent form for passive income.

I recently disocvered ice mining, with the way I mine the long cycles and reduction of click click click make it ideal.

So I decided to take the investment - buy a set of Macks for my toons, get them T2 crystals, shields - the works. I was excited.

Then I got suicide ganked. Only had the ships less than 8 hours. I really don't see how he managed to pop the pods too before concord got to him, but... what's done is done I guess. Just wish I didn't loose all my implants too.. ugh Sad

I know this is within the game mechanics, so I'm not going to whine about that. I've never been suicide ganked before, it's always been can flippnig, which I had some control over. So I was wondering - is this common in 0.5-0.7 space. Are groups of miners like a suicide gank magnet? With this type of ganking is there any reason to get into T2 ships at all?

I lost over a billion ISK today - for a new player that's...

I'm just trying to get some advice

Thank you,
Incrediably disheartened player who is trying regain the will to play

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:52:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Kesshisan on 27/08/2011 18:52:44
In lower security systems (0.5 mostly) Concord can take a long time to respond. I've no experience with this, but I've heard of Concord taking up to 30-40 seconds to respond.

I found an EvE Uni video on youtube about the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdb8riJUvk

Is it common in lower security systems? No. Is it uncommon? No.

Also look up something called "Hulkageddon."

Ganymede Sanders
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:04:00 - [3]
 

Thanks for that, I didn't know that the response time of Concord was scaled differently for 0.5 - that's good to know!

And I'm fimilar with Hulkagetton - are other T2 mining vessles (Macks and Skiffs) counted in those events as well? I thought the last one ended a short while ago?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:12:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 27/08/2011 19:13:46

Mackinaws are very fragile. Since you got podded too, that's the signature of a disco battleship attack (smartbomb).

Don't AFK ice mine in Mackinaws. I know it sounds painful, but if you want to AFK do it in a cheaper ship.

Open season on miners never ends. That's why I tank my Hulks, and don't AFK.


bushwacka
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:52:00 - [5]
 

even when your're not AFK - if your macks are all clustered up and a discogeddon gets a good warpin on you, you'll get toasted while trying to warp out.

spread out a bit, at least this way you'll only lose one ship

Ganymede Sanders
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:46:00 - [6]
 

Yeah that's exactly how I had my ships set up. I didn't know that there was a ship out there that could do something like that, always figured that I'd be able to warp out when I heard the sound of someone locking onto my ship - I was able to save the Orca but the rest were toasted like you said by that. That's good advice, I'll go ahead and spread them out should I ever get back in the Mack's again. Thanks :)

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ganymede Sanders
Yeah that's exactly how I had my ships set up. I didn't know that there was a ship out there that could do something like that, always figured that I'd be able to warp out when I heard the sound of someone locking onto my ship - I was able to save the Orca but the rest were toasted like you said by that. That's good advice, I'll go ahead and spread them out should I ever get back in the Mack's again. Thanks :)


Some things I've learned.

1: There is always a ship that can do that.
2: You do not hear them locking on to you. Passive targeting mechanisms especially do well at target locking you without you knowing (this is what they are made to do). An active targeting system does not make any sound either. What you are hearing is your ship attempting to "lock back" on the person who has you targeted already.
3: There is a significant increase in the danger to your ships when you are trying to do anything AFK.
4: Watch local (requires not being AFK) and at the very least show-info on anyone coming in, as you might get a hint at their intentions in system.
5: Learn who is a "usual" and who isn't. Don't be afraid to mark them as neutrals so you can quickly scan for new players in system.
6: Count the number of players in the ice belt, vs. the number of players in system. If you dump a load of ice with your Orca, take a gander at who is also docked so you can get an idea of how many players are unaccounted for or are not flying industrial ships.
7: stay aligned to something.
8: Know your ships. Abaddons are pretty well known, but it's not the only one that can make your day unhappy before Concord shows up.
9: See #4
10: "Risk vs. Reward" is a phrase commonly thrown about, and in this case it is a question of how you want to deal with the equation. Uncomfortable with the increase in unknowns in your system? You can risk it and mine more ice, or you can jump to a safe-spot and chill for a bit, watching local, and see if they leave or stick around.

I've seen a number of variables in those situations which affect the outcome. Mining away one day, and suddenly 5 people with negative sec status show up in a 0.7 system. Decided to dock and see what was up with a co-vops ship and probes. Turns out they were not there for trouble, but they were from a wormhole corporation that was doing their best to make use of a high-sec connection that they probably don't get that often. Watched them come out in pods, and go back in the wormhole with various types of ships.
Stay on D-scan. Guy shows up and you see him on d-scan with an Abaddon. You can choose to leave for a bit, or keep on d-scan and see if wrecks start popping up, which are a good indication that he's on a mission.

Bottom line: If they want a kill, they will find a way to do it. What your chances are of being their target depends on how paranoid you want to be.

I haven't flown Mackinaws yet, but after a lot of the discussion I've seen in regards to their lack of defense capabilities, it might be worth it to just skip the defense modules and max it out for cargo (or put laser upgrades in the lows). Make it cheap as you can because, as you've found, you're going to lose it eventually.

I'm insane however, so not all the info may be accurate or pertinent to the situation.

Suki Okiwana
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:23:00 - [8]
 

About spreading out: The largest area of effect I saw on a smartbomb was around 10 000 m, is that radius or diameter?

Riker Atros
Gallente
Intergalactic Expedition Division
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:23:00 - [9]
 

I currently have two clients running, one obviously mining, and the other in a Pure PvP setup, stasis, warp disrupt, etc, and so if anyone tries to mess with me I BOOM

blow em up.

TheOnlyProphet
Amarr
Altus Provisio
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:20:00 - [10]
 

Get to know Local...

Who lives there? What do they do? How often do they have players in system? etc...
This information will allow you to know when there are "strangers" in your mining system. If local suddenly spikes with a bunch of strangers in Battleships it might be time to dock up for a bit.

Be picky about where you mine...

Systems that are closer to market hubs are going to see a lot more traffic in general. This makes it harder to keep intel on locals and makes a system with a lot of through traffic a potentially dangerous place to mine. You might have to do more hauling if you're mining in a secluded spot, but it's better to have to go a few extra jumps than replace your mining fleet.

Don't mine on the warp-in...

Don't just warp to 0 on a belt and start mining there. Take the time to use a frigate and make bookmarks on the other side of the belt. This will give you two advantages. 1) Smart Bombing battleship gangs aren't going to "get lucky" by warping around from belt to belt and accidentally landing on you. 2) Forces the use of a scout to bookmark your location for the fleet, and you can easily watch for scouts after a local spike.

Lastly, be prepared to replace ships...

Even with all the planning and preparation in the world someone is going to get the better of you at some point. Just thank them for helping make this game awesome and get back out in the belts!

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:00:00 - [11]
 

Lots of good advice so far.

What i do is tank the crap out of all my ships. Yeah i know you cant tank macks that much but every single mod i have including rigs go to tank. Hey if it once saves my ship.. its worth it.

Also before you mine take a small frig and warp to the belt, look at where everyone else is and pick a spot away from them and away from the warpin. You dont want to get cought in the smartbombs of someone else getting ganked. This way the gankers has to have a small ship to bookmark your location increasing your time to react. Also is a ship is nosing around your mining spot.. move to a new. burn that bookmark and set up shop in another part.


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.29 06:48:00 - [12]
 

I have my Mackinaws fit to haul 3 full cycles = 12 blocks of ice. I don't bother to tank them against anything other than NPC, as there is no point. A Hulk can at least be somewhat tanked (anything under 20k EHP is laughable).

Time to fill
Exhumers 2: 21m 06s
Exhumers 3: 19m 55s
Exhumers 4: 18m 45s
Exhumers 5: 17m 35s

[Mackinaw, Ice Ice Baby]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Small C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I


Hobgoblin II x5

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2011.08.31 09:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Linda Shadowborn
Lots of good advice so far.

What i do is tank the crap out of all my ships. Yeah i know you cant tank macks that much but every single mod i have including rigs go to tank. Hey if it once saves my ship.. its worth it.

Also before you mine take a small frig and warp to the belt, look at where everyone else is and pick a spot away from them and away from the warpin. You dont want to get cought in the smartbombs of someone else getting ganked. This way the gankers has to have a small ship to bookmark your location increasing your time to react. Also is a ship is nosing around your mining spot.. move to a new. burn that bookmark and set up shop in another part.




its only worth it if you get ganked more often than the yield difference adds up to a whole ship+fit. When I fully brick my alts hulk, theory yield drops by 30%, about 65 hours of theory yield mining the lesser tanked hulk has to survive to be clear ahead. Also ganks may not fit into the range that fully bricking the hulk makes any difference.

Usurpine
Amarr
GDC Holding
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:23:00 - [14]
 

Do not mine ice in High Sec. Use better places, where you have a good intel channel and you see hostiles coming from far away so you have most of the time more then enough time to get safe.
The ice is better, you can use rorqual boost and you will have maximum income.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
7: stay aligned to something.


Thomas, you had a lot of good advice, but this one quite simply doesn't help.

Your velocity is determined as a vector. For example:

If I am facing towards something 90digrees from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing towards the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing away from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

There is no such thing as passive alignment.*

*There really is such a thing as passive alignment, but it ONLY affects things that require your physical ship positioning to be there. Things like which direction stealth bombers fire and the ability for your ship to decloak another ship, etc. For the sake of velocity, if you are at all stop you are equally aligned to all directions.

Of course if someone enters your belt you can align to an celestial/bookmark and if the person tries anything silly, warp off. Just remember this requires you to move to be aligned, and you may put yourself out of roid range.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:20:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Riker Atros
I currently have two clients running, one obviously mining, and the other in a Pure PvP setup, stasis, warp disrupt, etc, and so if anyone tries to mess with me I BOOM

blow em up.


This doesn't work for suicide ganks. It is, however, quite entertaining to have a Recon pop can flippers.

Darrow Hill
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:55:00 - [17]
 

Sigh... why did I have to look this up?

Linkage

All three of your Mackinaws where closely grouped together and completely un-tanked?

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:16:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kesshisan
Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
7: stay aligned to something.


Thomas, you had a lot of good advice, but this one quite simply doesn't help.

Your velocity is determined as a vector. For example:

If I am facing towards something 90digrees from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing towards the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing away from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

There is no such thing as passive alignment.*



So if one ship is facing the destination, and one is facing away (identical ships), and both choose to warp at the same time, ship facing away from the destination will not have a decrease in it's acceleration due to the need to make a U-turn? If it doesn't, then that's good news to me. :)

Joe Forum
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
Originally by: Kesshisan
Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
7: stay aligned to something.


Thomas, you had a lot of good advice, but this one quite simply doesn't help.

Your velocity is determined as a vector. For example:

If I am facing towards something 90digrees from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing towards the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

If I am facing away from the sun at all stop, and I warp to the sun, I will take 11 seconds to align and warp.

There is no such thing as passive alignment.*



So if one ship is facing the destination, and one is facing away (identical ships), and both choose to warp at the same time, ship facing away from the destination will not have a decrease in it's acceleration due to the need to make a U-turn? If it doesn't, then that's good news to me. :)


As long as you are stationary, yes.

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:26:00 - [20]
 

My advice is to find out the names of as many of the Suicide Ninja Corps and Alliances as you can doing some research. Add them to your Contacts and color them ORANGE.......or another color not really used.

Tear Extraction and Reclamation (Alliance), Lonetrek Salvage (Corp), Suddenly Ninjas and various others are a start for your list.

If you even see orange on local, you can decide what action to take AND THEY WILL NEVER GET YOU.

DO NOT BE AFK EVER.

It's about the stupidest most idiotic mentally deficient thing one can do in EVE ever. Period. And. Final.




Pope Pious TheFirst
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:05:00 - [21]
 

Pretty nice thread. Problem is, a lot of what's being said really isn't going to help you much. Aligning to a celestial object DOES work and allow you to warp faster, I wouldn't be able to fly around Jita without it.
But most high sec gankers use high alpha strike ships like a BC or BS with good guns. All the tanking those thin skinned ships can have won't stop them. And not being AFK, well yeah that's great advice but when that ship lands and insta locks you BOOM, sorry, being there and aware isn't going to change a thing unless you know the char is a bad one and see him in local. Pretty hard to watch local if there is 50+ people in it, at least it is for me.

The only advice I saw below that I really liked was the one that suggested getting out of high sec all together. But high sec is a lot funner. In 0.0 you can relax and lazily mine and if you see a red or anyone who doesn't belong in local you just warp away. But in high sec, it's pretty hard to do that. In high sec everyone is a potential ganker. High sec is a lot harder than low sec. The real care bears are all in low sec! lol

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: TheOnlyProphet

Be picky about where you mine...

Systems that are closer to market hubs are going to see a lot more traffic in general. This makes it harder to keep intel on locals and makes a system with a lot of through traffic a potentially dangerous place to mine. You might have to do more hauling if you're mining in a secluded spot, but it's better to have to go a few extra jumps than replace your mining fleet.




This really. There are plenty of off-the-beaten-path places in high sec where you will almost never even see another player, let alone a can flipper or suicide ganker. But for some reason, people cling to the areas near the hubs. I think that's just asking for trouble.

Dalloway Jones
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.09.01 08:57:00 - [23]
 

Yeah I mine in a spot with 1 - 10 other players at most and the only reason there are that many is there is an ice field. I can't imagine mining in a spot with 50 other players around. Why would people do that? Aren't the belts half empty all the time?

Usurpine
Amarr
GDC Holding
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:11:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Pope Pious TheFirst
...

The only advice I saw below that I really liked was the one that suggested getting out of high sec all together. But high sec is a lot funner. In 0.0 you can relax and lazily mine and if you see a red or anyone who doesn't belong in local you just warp away. But in high sec, it's pretty hard to do that. In high sec everyone is a potential ganker. High sec is a lot harder than low sec. The real care bears are all in low sec! lol

Have you ever been in 0.0 ? Because High Sec is boring against live in 0.0 space.
You need to find out yourself first.
And all in all, you can always use a jump clone to do missions in empire or whatever is funny doing in Empire. Use a jump clone.

Trit Kid
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:31:00 - [25]
 

Make a couple of throwaway alts, set one to kill the other at the belt you want to mine, voila, concord support already at belt

Are'zu
Minmatar
Nemesis Holdings Corp
The Paganism Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:57:00 - [26]
 

Alot of good stuff here. many questions i shouldve asked were answered. You know, you can say alot about the great mining guides out there, but theyre really all missing this.

Im at the point where im working towards an orca for the hauler alt both training and isk wise. The question ive been meaning to ask somebody is, do i buy the orca when i meet required skills(plus shield/armor skills, fitting and navigation skills)or do i wait till i can fully fit it with all the links n stuff. I guess its really all about risk/money management, but in your hindsight, if you were to buy an orca for 400 and fit it with good standard defensive equipment and rigs, how much ISK would you acquire before even considering buying it? 600? 800? ie, where can i bend the dont fly what you cant afford to lose rule.

Thus far, ive been mining in either alliance territory(highsec) or one of those mentioned highsec systems that dont have a lot of travelers and im usually watching local like if you were sleeping with one eye open, but im still doing something else while i mine, like homework or researching the forums.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.09.01 19:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Are'zu
Alot of good stuff here. many questions i shouldve asked were answered. You know, you can say alot about the great mining guides out there, but theyre really all missing this.

Im at the point where im working towards an orca for the hauler alt both training and isk wise. The question ive been meaning to ask somebody is, do i buy the orca when i meet required skills(plus shield/armor skills, fitting and navigation skills)or do i wait till i can fully fit it with all the links n stuff. I guess its really all about risk/money management, but in your hindsight, if you were to buy an orca for 400 and fit it with good standard defensive equipment and rigs, how much ISK would you acquire before even considering buying it? 600? 800? ie, where can i bend the dont fly what you cant afford to lose rule.

Thus far, ive been mining in either alliance territory(highsec) or one of those mentioned highsec systems that dont have a lot of travelers and im usually watching local like if you were sleeping with one eye open, but im still doing something else while i mine, like homework or researching the forums.


I would vote for training for using the defensive modules and armor/shield rigs first, then train the leadership skills, but I'm paranoid like that. :)


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:14:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 01/09/2011 23:22:14
Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
I would vote for training for using the defensive modules and armor/shield rigs first, then train the leadership skills, but I'm paranoid like that. :)
This is what I use. I use a dedicated hauler in a Bustard, so I really don't need all the cargo for mining. I also own a Charon freighter, so I don't haul in the Orca.

[Orca, Booster]
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing

Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Are'zu
Minmatar
Nemesis Holdings Corp
The Paganism Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 10:28:00 - [29]
 

Thanks guys, well i have all the skills fr defensive moduls and stuff, no problem. The question is really how much isk i should be acquireing before buying the orca? if i was to spend 450-500 on orca+modules.


 

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