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Gakutou
Posted - 2011.08.27 15:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Gakutou on 27/08/2011 15:38:41
I've found a one year old thread which was closed that's why I'm creating this new one.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1348615

So, what's the point of these POS modules?

The material multiplier kills the profit margin. Quite a few ships are already being sold under production cost (not just frigate sized ships, the Rook for example is about 15m under its estimated average invention+production cost) and the estimated profit on most of the rest is usually 10-15-20%.
So the increased material cost kills >50% of the profit rendering this module totally worthless (more so if you have access to the manufacturing slots of an amarr outpost).

On top of that they have only one slot.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:27:00 - [2]
 

Doh! I never considered they only have one slot, or I would have added that complaint to the proposal. Embarassed

The proposal as-is made it into the 2011 Prioritization Crowdsourcing (id: 66) and got 94 points, so it was pretty low on the totem Crying or Very sad

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:59:00 - [3]
 

they *used* to be important when T2 came out. Same as with the POS refineries.

Now with the proliferation of nullsec outposts, and stronger/more reliable logistics lines ... these modules have fallen to the wayside...

Gakutou
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:55:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
they *used* to be important when T2 came out. Same as with the POS refineries.

Now with the proliferation of nullsec outposts, and stronger/more reliable logistics lines ... these modules have fallen to the wayside...


If they had, let's say, 3 slots and a multiplier of 1, I would use them (one of each size). Currently there are no amarr outpost where I am so it would be worth to have.
But like this they are totally useless so there is practically no chance to produce t2 ships at a POS.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:31:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
Originally by: Gakutou
Originally by: Velicitia
they *used* to be important when T2 came out. Same as with the POS refineries.

Now with the proliferation of nullsec outposts, and stronger/more reliable logistics lines ... these modules have fallen to the wayside...


If they had, let's say, 3 slots and a multiplier of 1, I would use them (one of each size). Currently there are no amarr outpost where I am so it would be worth to have.
But like this they are totally useless so there is practically no chance to produce t2 ships at a POS.


exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)

Gakutou
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)


For a single person it is still a lot. Keep in mind you need to upgrade an amarr outpost to have the manufacturing time reduced on t2 ships. That's another +4.5b isk (and a trip with a freighter to haul in the upgrade platform).

Now compare this with invention and BP copying. Mobile labs give those time bonuses without any disadventages so you don't really need to build a caldari outpost. In the case of t2 ship production however, upgraded amarr outposts are the only way.

Caghji
Posted - 2011.08.28 14:52:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Caghji on 28/08/2011 14:59:34
Edited by: Caghji on 28/08/2011 14:55:08
Consider the following ........

the time multiplier has an effect x 0.75 on the array

So in comparison to 'normal' station manufacturing where material and time is x 1.0

If you keep array working flat out then 'per day' you are getting better isk 'return' on jobs

Hyperthetical example

In x 1.0 station, a ship that costs 100isk to build still costs 100isk to build and takes for example 8 days

If the ship sells 'immediatly' for 150 isk then that is 50 isk profit in 8 days - 6.25 isk profit per day from start of job to finish of sale

put the same ship in an array and it will cost you 110 isk of materials to build (1.1 x material) but it will be built in 6 days (0.75 x time(8) )

selling 'immediatly' for 150isk, this is 40isk profit over 6 days = 6.5 isk per day

As 'we' keep telling everyone - time spent is not 'free' - time has a value and this shows it.

If this seems confusing look at it in a different way

after 480 days of constant manufacturing and selling with the above example prices at a normal 'x 1' station I will have made 60runs x 50 isk profit each = 3000 isk profit in 480 days

at array I will have made 80runs x 40 isk profit each = 3200isk profit total in 480 days

so in 480 days array player will be 200isk richer than the station player, with the station player some 20 jobs 'behind' array player.

now that is the theory over with we have to look at reality

fuel costs for running array as opposed to station costs?

how likely u keep pace with sales with making the ship type?

how likely you keep array working non stop?

Caghji


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:09:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Gakutou
Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)


For a single person it is still a lot.


I'd love to see a SINGLE pilot hold sovereignty to launch an outpost.

Gakutou
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:10:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Gakutou on 28/08/2011 15:14:02
Edited by: Gakutou on 28/08/2011 15:12:37
Edited by: Gakutou on 28/08/2011 15:11:50
Like I wrote above, many t2 ships that have a profit margin (many are sold below production cost) have a 10-20% profit on them (cost includes invention cost too though). Now increase the ship's production cost by 10% and see your profit drop to like 3-13% or so (these are estimated). Even without any calculation I can say it's not worth to use an assembly array as the time bonus won't increase your income as much as you lose on lower profits.

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Gakutou
Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)


For a single person it is still a lot.


I'd love to see a SINGLE pilot hold sovereignty to launch an outpost.


Obviously there is no such thing. Starting from the point that you need an alliace to hold sov.
But I know already that if I ask our leaders they'll just say "build one yourself".

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:31:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Gakutou

But I know already that if I ask our leaders they'll just say "build one yourself".


Then, your alliance leaders obviously don't care about having production facilities for you to profit off of.

a few options for you:
1. get in a "better" alliance
2. convince the leadership that said outpost is a "good idea"
3. build the crap in hisec

Gakutou
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:33:00 - [11]
 

Yep, those are the choices with one exception: how do I benefit from producing in high sec? No station in high sec has a time bonus.

Caghji
Posted - 2011.08.29 02:52:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
Even without any calculationNeutral I can say it's not worth to use an assembly array as the time bonus won't increase your income as much as you lose on lower profits.


Time to build – 8 days
Ship costs 100 isk to build
Sell for 10% profit
10isk profit = 1.25 isk per day

Time to build 6 days
Ship costs 110 isk to build


@117.5 selling price will get 1.25 isk per day profit over 6 days

therefore any sale 17.5% above original manufacture '100 isk cost' will get you better daily return if made at array.

This only works over a long extended time of constant production - that is you get richer quicker

any sale 17.5% mark up or less it is better to build at station.

So if you are pumping out ships constantly and can get 17.5%+ profit of original 100isk ship manufacturing markup price sales then use an array.

Caghji




Chichkata
Posted - 2011.08.29 06:59:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Chichkata on 29/08/2011 07:36:01
Originally by: Caghji
partial calculations...


If we agree that:
Installation cost at station = 1,000 isk;
Cost per hour at station = 500 isk;
Monthly POS fuel for large caldari tower = 300M;
and you are running 10 manufacturing jobs at the same time, as everyone is;

Then:
I. Station - additional cost of 97,000 isk per ship (8d production time)
II. Array - additional cost of 4,000,000 isk per ship (6d production time), see bellow:
- One array needs 500 CPU, so for 10 arrays you'd need a large tower. 10 arrays would be 2/3 of your CPU (5000/7500), or 200M/month. That's 20M/month/array, 666K/day/array or ~4M for 6 days or per ship(that's if you keep the arrays running 24/7).

The 1 slot per array is what the problem is.

PS
Calculations are for a Adv.Medium Array.

Laveaolous
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.29 09:47:00 - [14]
 

It is a handy module if you have a T2 BPO. Pumping out 200 Ceptors at a time keeps the PLEX's coming even with the additional mats. Bit of a niche market though perhaps.




Quazal Atreides
Gallente
Low Orbit Industries
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Gakutou
Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)


For a single person it is still a lot.


I'd love to see a SINGLE pilot hold sovereignty to launch an outpost.


THe almgihty veldspar eater has done such a thing... Mr Chribba

Tandin
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.30 02:19:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Velicitia

I'd love to see a SINGLE pilot hold sovereignty to launch an outpost.


While I was in an alliance (RAGE) at the time which actually was claiming the sov, I did build and drop an outpost solo. That's where the XSQ station in the Vale came from. Wanted to see if I could do it and I did.

Now, somebody is going to pop up some retort about "you lost the space". I honestly don't care about the station. I wanted to see if I could build an outpost solo and a titan and I did both although the corp paid for about 1/3 of the titan. Still have it though. It's a game, life goes one. I spend more time building airplanes at work than playing the game at this point.


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:36:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Quazal Atreides
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Gakutou
Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 28/08/2011 12:32:02
exactly -- the proliferation of outposts in nullsec, and the ease of getting the materials on the market have "ruined" the POS modules that were purpose-built for the thing (CCP didn't really take into account how much ISK this stuff would make... ~25 bil for an outpost isn't exactly "a lot" these days)


For a single person it is still a lot.


I'd love to see a SINGLE pilot hold sovereignty to launch an outpost.


THe almgihty veldspar eater has done such a thing... Mr Chribba


We're all alts of Chribba anywayCool

Caghji
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:52:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Chichkata
Edited by: Chichkata on 29/08/2011 07:36:01
Originally by: Caghji
partial calculations...


If we agree that:
Installation cost at station = 1,000 isk;
Cost per hour at station = 500 isk;
Monthly POS fuel for large caldari tower = 300M;
and you are running 10 manufacturing jobs at the same time, as everyone is;

Then:
I. Station - additional cost of 97,000 isk per ship (8d production time)
II. Array - additional cost of 4,000,000 isk per ship (6d production time), see bellow:
- One array needs 500 CPU, so for 10 arrays you'd need a large tower. 10 arrays would be 2/3 of your CPU (5000/7500), or 200M/month. That's 20M/month/array, 666K/day/array or ~4M for 6 days or per ship(that's if you keep the arrays running 24/7).

The 1 slot per array is what the problem is.

PS
Calculations are for a Adv.Medium Array.


Above example is good if setting up POS for array only and show’s how difficult it is

However a lot of POSs are set up for ‘other things’ and may well have enough CPU left over for an array to be added to

In this case it only costs the Liquid Ozone (200,000 PG – 1848 units of Liquid ozone for Caldari Large POS per week) and Heavy Water (500 CPU – 1680 units of heavy water)

Prices vary – but if we use
400isk pu of LO – 400 x 1848 = 739200isk per week
21isk pu of HW – 21 x 1680 = 35280isk per week
Total running cost of array per week – 774480isk per week
Over 6 days = 663840 isk at array
Per day = 774480 / 7 = 110640isk per day

Station cost over 8 days is 97000 or 97000 / 8 = 12125 per day

So using an array is more expensive running costs by a factor of 9.12 than therunning costs of a station

However in the bigger picture we must note that daily running costs of an array vs the time it takes to build a ship the – if we move a way from the 8 day and 6 day example

A researched T2 cruiser BP might take 2.2 days normally to build ( example only) at a station

Station costs therefore add 24250isk to the build price

At an array the build for same BP will take 2.2 x 0.75 = 1.65

Array cost added to build is 1.65 x 110640 = 182556 isk

Now take a look at exactly how much T2 Cruisers sell for – 120mil? – 140mil?
Despite the installation costs being 9 x more this extra costs of the array is less than 1% of the sale price – less than 2% than the manufacturing price – and imo easily absorbed in the market price – ie let the customer pay for it

Caghji


 

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