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Tautut
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:27:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Tautut on 27/08/2011 11:30:52
Rather than a straight cloak - how about a fake transponder / camouflage high slot device that allows ships to appear as another ship and present a fake ID?

The ship you appear to be depends on a combination of scripts and skill level.

That would add another level of uncertainty to PvP that's for sure.

Edit - Just for the record, I'm not asking to get rid of cloak - this is an alternative addition. One that camouflages your ship. You could even separate out the visual aspect (what you see when you eyeball a ship) and the transponder ID (how the ship is scanned) with separate skill requirements / mods etc... whatever Razz



The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:46:00 - [2]
 

Sorry, but why remove cloak?

Tautut
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:56:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Tautut on 27/08/2011 07:56:23
I'm not saying get rid of cloak all together - just saying at the moment we have 'visible' and i'invisible'.
Fake transponder / camouflage - acts as a third way - i.e. visible yet fake.

Otto Weston
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:32:00 - [4]
 

Tbh, I quite like the idea... Gives a small chance to non-cloaky ships to survive whilst going through hostlie space but doesn't break anything and is a bit situational.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.27 09:42:00 - [5]
 

long long time ago i presented the idea of an item that would make a fake hologram of the current ship u fly, it would only be useable on cruiser sized ships and smaller and (imo) would use a rig slot with a max of one ( yea it be wierd) but i think it got the "whats the point HUR HUR HUR"

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:17:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Dasola on 27/08/2011 10:17:40
So round 90027362 in AFk cloaker shutdown our activity in 0.0 system...
Personally i dont feel need for change, since if person is afk he cant hurt you. And second you should be able to work as team anyways to keep bossible hostiles not causeing too much trouble.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:30:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tautut
Edited by: Tautut on 27/08/2011 07:56:23
I'm not saying get rid of cloak all together - just saying at the moment we have 'visible' and i'invisible'.
Fake transponder / camouflage - acts as a third way - i.e. visible yet fake.



Ok. I misunderstood because of the "Rather than".

The idea is cool btw Wink

Tokyo Rose
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:32:00 - [8]
 

I'm totally against removing cloaks or the cloak mechanic but having a module that lets your gank ship appear as a harmless t1 hauler would be awesome.

CLONE 9
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:34:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dasola
Edited by: Dasola on 27/08/2011 10:17:40
So round 90027362 in AFk cloaker shutdown our activity in 0.0 system...
Personally i dont feel need for change, since if person is afk he cant hurt you. And second you should be able to work as team anyways to keep bossible hostiles not causeing too much trouble.


Either you didn't read the post or it was too difficult for you to comprehend. I can't make up my mind which.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:42:00 - [10]
 

It sounds like an awesome gameplay element, but it would need to have substantial downsides to be balanced, I think. Otherwise everyone would feel like they needed to fit one of them all the time.

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:52:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 27/08/2011 11:06:05
Overall the idea of being able to create a fake ship for the purpose of deception is a good one, but how it would be implemented is very tricky to figure (and impossible to satisfy everyone with).

E: I'm no expert, but it occurs to me that it might work well as a drone. That is, it consumes a ship's drone bandwidth, remains stationary like a sentry drone does, and goes idle/shuts itself off if the player loses control over it (like: logged off, or left system). Then it requires sacrificing some, if not all of your drones for a rather situational ability.

DangerosoDavo
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:54:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
It sounds like an awesome gameplay element, but it would need to have substantial downsides to be balanced, I think. Otherwise everyone would feel like they needed to fit one of them all the time.


you mean like.. losing a high slot which could of been a gun? and a likly higher than normal cpu usage.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.27 11:28:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: DangerosoDavo
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
It sounds like an awesome gameplay element, but it would need to have substantial downsides to be balanced, I think. Otherwise everyone would feel like they needed to fit one of them all the time.


you mean like.. losing a high slot which could of been a gun? and a likly higher than normal cpu usage.


It would have to be a lot of CPU, or else every faction frig will become a rifter, and every HAC a. . .well, also a rifter I guess.

Basically unless this thing is ship-crippling near the extent to which a cloak is, dscan would just be a whole bunch of rifters and bestowers. It would be mandatory to fit.

The cloak is a well balanced module. It not only takes space and fitting, it has extreme downsides to ship performance. Only a few specialized hulls can fit a certain kind of cloak without these severe downsides, and those specialized hulls themselves have substantial limitiations.

It would need to be sort of like that. Not as drastic, but in that direction. I.e., more than just a slot and CPU.

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.08.27 12:09:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 27/08/2011 12:09:15
It's a very interesting idea and could be quite cool to implement. Problem is that CCP previously has done the "wouldn't it be cool if" stuff and now realises that most of that cool stuff later on proves to become a triple headed dragon they can't control or balance.

There's way too many ways of toying with this and simply trying to balance it by CPU or the likes is going to be silly. You'll see ratting Nyxes posing as an Ibis, stuff like that.

Tautut
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.27 12:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tautut on 27/08/2011 12:22:45
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 27/08/2011 12:09:15
It's a very interesting idea and could be quite cool to implement. Problem is that CCP previously has done the "wouldn't it be cool if" stuff and now realises that most of that cool stuff later on proves to become a triple headed dragon they can't control or balance.

There's way too many ways of toying with this and simply trying to balance it by CPU or the likes is going to be silly. You'll see ratting Nyxes posing as an Ibis, stuff like that.


Checks and balances. I always tend to disagree when someone implies that doing X is too much like hard work.

Take a look at your Nyx to Ibis conversion - let's say that a camouflage mod runs on n units of cap per cycle, where n is calculated by the variance in the mass of the two objects. Sure the Nyx can pose as an Ibis - but the cap requirement is crippling. There are hundreds of ways you could play this if you really wanted to do it to make it work and make it fair.


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.27 13:29:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 27/08/2011 13:38:51
Could work fairly well, I think. Let's say it cannot be fit to combat vessels (you get cloak :P) -- just (T1) industrials, since they're tissue-paper thin.

Lets say it can make the industrial look like a BS ...

The scene: INDUSTRIAL PILOT (I) is flying through a low sec chain. He's just about to land on a gate near the end of the chain. What he's not aware of is the EBIL PIWAT (P) is waiting on the other side
I : OK, these last jumps through lowsec ... glad I got this thing that makes me look like a Domi...
(systems beep, he's in range to activate the gate)
I : It's now or never ...
(Activate gate, arrive in the lowsec system. INDUSTRIAL PILOT sees the EBIL PIWAT)
I : ****! I really hope this pirate falls for the camo...
P : oh it's just a BS... gate's been slow today, so what the hell?
(scan it)
P: Shockedit's carrying 30kM3 of $High_Value_Stuff
(shoot)YARRRR!!

edit... damn, board ate my post...

this should fix it

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.08.27 13:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tautut
Edited by: Tautut on 27/08/2011 12:22:45
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 27/08/2011 12:09:15
It's a very interesting idea and could be quite cool to implement. Problem is that CCP previously has done the "wouldn't it be cool if" stuff and now realises that most of that cool stuff later on proves to become a triple headed dragon they can't control or balance.

There's way too many ways of toying with this and simply trying to balance it by CPU or the likes is going to be silly. You'll see ratting Nyxes posing as an Ibis, stuff like that.


Checks and balances. I always tend to disagree when someone implies that doing X is too much like hard work.

Take a look at your Nyx to Ibis conversion - let's say that a camouflage mod runs on n units of cap per cycle, where n is calculated by the variance in the mass of the two objects. Sure the Nyx can pose as an Ibis - but the cap requirement is crippling. There are hundreds of ways you could play this if you really wanted to do it to make it work and make it fair.




By that same token Jumpbridges were a cool idea, AOE Titans (and after that single target titans) and very powerful supercarriers. All great ideas peopel talked about in a "wouldn't it be cool" campfire chat. But when they actually made it ingame they became monsters, giving us headaches and problems they never envisioned and now have trouble balancing or toning down.

JUST because something is a "cool idea" doesn't mean it should be in the game as there's way too many factors and issues in regards to balancing and new&nasty possible gameplay problems because of them.

Implementing stuff that has a well defined and needed role is GOOD, randomly trying to implement funky ideas just for the sake of it is quite possibly dangerous. As said; the idea is cool but being cool isn't enough to be implemented.

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:28:00 - [18]
 

Moved from General Discussion.

Anshu Zephyran
Gallente
Laurentson INC
Posted - 2011.08.29 08:01:00 - [19]
 

What if, instead of making a given ship appear to be a different kind of ship entirely, it made you appear blue on people's overview/in space while the module was active? You'd be able to defeat it by doing show info, but it could still be useful.

Or maybe instead of just making you look blue, it adjusts your apparent standings (relative to other players, that is) - it could be a module that runs scripts. You could have a script that adds +5 apparent standings, one that adds +10, and maybe even a +15 script, becoming more expensive and difficult to use as the bonus goes up (Tech 2 scripts maybe?). So if you had -5 standings and were running a +5 script, you'd look neutral (0 standings), but with +10 script you'd look like you had +5 standings. Someone with -10 standing would have to run a +15 script in order to appear blue.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:21:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Anshu Zephyran
What if, instead of making a given ship appear to be a different kind of ship entirely, it made you appear blue on people's overview/in space while the module was active? You'd be able to defeat it by doing show info, but it could still be useful.

Or maybe instead of just making you look blue, it adjusts your apparent standings (...)


Standings are per-player informations. In order to work, someone would have to disguise himself as a corp/alliance member in his entirety. And I think that covers the bridge to name changes/aliases and so on, which have already been a big NO and continue to be.


Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:25:00 - [21]
 

How about this module only changing how you show up on scans/probes?

That way, you can fool anyone not actually seeing you, but once someone got eyes on you they know what ship you're in anyway...

just a brainstorm.

Anshu Zephyran
Gallente
Laurentson INC
Posted - 2011.08.29 22:45:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Rina Asanari
Standings are per-player informations. In order to work, someone would have to disguise himself as a corp/alliance member in his entirety. And I think that covers the bridge to name changes/aliases and so on, which have already been a big NO and continue to be.


I don't see why standings being per-player means you'd have to masquerade as a corpmate or alliancemate. But perhaps instead of affecting everyone who sees you, it could key off standings relative to a certain corp or alliance. Like, when you load your +5 script into the IFF Modulator and turn it on, it asks you to enter a corp or alliance ticker, and until you turn the module off, you'll look as if your standings to that corp/alliance were 5 points better than actual.

Other related ideas:
  • Scripts degrade over time

  • Module can be activated while cloaked, but ends cloak

  • Affected corp/alliance can't be changed without turning the module off and on again.

  • Module must complete current cycle before turning off, also requires 10s to reload like non-laser guns


 

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