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Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.26 23:24:00 - [1]
 

Ok my first attempt was a complete disaster and had to scrap the whole deal and start over. What I've done this time is setup on a small gas planet to produce coolant. I've got 2 ECUs (but only had enough PG for 5 heads) routed to my launch pad. From there the Aqenous liquid and ionic solutions are routed to two different basic processors. They process them and return the product to the launch pad again. Then the Water and Electrolytes are sent from the launch pad to an advanced processor which makes coolant and then returns the product to the launch pad.

The only problem I see so far is I don't have enough PG to run enough extractor heads to run the whole setup on a 1 day cycle like I want to. I'm currently training CC Upgrades 3 to fix that. I'm a little worried however that after upgrading my CC one more time I will now have about 4 mil in this operation and I'm wondering if I'll even break even. See any problems with my setup that maybe I missed?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:30:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 27/08/2011 00:48:07

Ionic Solutions are only available in very small amounts in hisec. I wouldn't bother extracting it.

I also don't recommend more than one ECU per planet.

This works well for me:
* Planet 1: Extract P0 -> P1
* Planet 2: Extract P0 -> P1
* Planet 3: P1 + P1 -> P2
* Planet 4: Extract P0 -> P1
* Planet 5: Extract P0 -> P1
* Planet 6: P1 + P1 -> P2, P2 + P2 -> P3

Some people don't recommend extracting in hisec, and just buy lower tier materials for processing. This works (I've made ISK making coolant from P0 I bought), but you have to be very careful to account for all your costs, or you will operate at a loss if you pay too much for materials.

EDIT: Barren planets are ideal factory planets. Especially small radius ones. I use a spaceport for each separate material I import, so 3 spaceports on my P3 planet, which I can fill and ignore for a day.


Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:42:00 - [3]
 

Ugh, this is getting aggravating. I really don't want to get to involved with this. I kinda was just shooting for a supplemental income that wouldn't take too much micro managing. So you say I should focus on Barren planets for P2?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:52:00 - [4]
 

I think you should probably keep things simple then. Extract P0, process to P1, sell it.

If you find you can tolerate that, at a later date setup a planet for P1 + P1 -> P2.

Start small, keep it simple, and grow later. Find your comfort zone first.

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.08.27 12:43:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
Ugh, this is getting aggravating. I really don't want to get to involved with this. I kinda was just shooting for a supplemental income that wouldn't take too much micro managing. So you say I should focus on Barren planets for P2?


I hate people that think that PI is free isk there for the taking with no research or effort. Go back to ratting pls.

none770
Posted - 2011.08.27 13:58:00 - [6]
 

my advice to you is if four mil is an issue lol please GO BACK TO WOW

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 14:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: none770
my advice to you is if four mil is an issue lol please GO BACK TO WOW
When you're brand new to the game and grinding level 1 missions to get that 4 mil it is a big deal. I don't know why that seems to invoke your inner nerd rage though.

Nyrak
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:30:00 - [8]
 

One minor, but important, point to remember about gas planets is due to their overall size (though graphics are not always perfect), running links between each module uses more processing power and thus you will have less available mining extractor heads compared to the same set-up on say a barren planet.

Whereas I may have not called certain game parts by their proper name, hopefully you get the idea.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:41:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Nyrak
One minor, but important, point to remember about gas planets is due to their overall size (though graphics are not always perfect), running links between each module uses more processing power and thus you will have less available mining extractor heads compared to the same set-up on say a barren planet.

Whereas I may have not called certain game parts by their proper name, hopefully you get the idea.


Yeah I read that somewhere so I targeted a really small gas planet 15km I think? Anyway I guess my real concern is how long will my "hotspots" last? Long enough to double my investment? And after its depleted I guess I can use my upgraded CC to work new areas so not all of my investment is lost. There's just alot I don't know about it and I'm trying not to sink more money into it than I can get out.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
When you're brand new to the game and grinding level 1 missions to get that 4 mil it is a big deal.

I agree. I'm guessing you haven't checked your wallet lately.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Koujo Arji
When you're brand new to the game and grinding level 1 missions to get that 4 mil it is a big deal.

I agree. I'm guessing you haven't checked your wallet lately.



Thanks a lot man.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:57:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
Originally by: Nyrak
One minor, but important, point to remember about gas planets is due to their overall size (though graphics are not always perfect), running links between each module uses more processing power and thus you will have less available mining extractor heads compared to the same set-up on say a barren planet.

Whereas I may have not called certain game parts by their proper name, hopefully you get the idea.


Yeah I read that somewhere so I targeted a really small gas planet 15km I think? Anyway I guess my real concern is how long will my "hotspots" last? Long enough to double my investment? And after its depleted I guess I can use my upgraded CC to work new areas so not all of my investment is lost. There's just alot I don't know about it and I'm trying not to sink more money into it than I can get out.


yes, hotspots move.
no, you don't have to link stuff to the cc.

What you can do is make "mobile" extraction facilities. My method for this (YMMV) is to have an ECU, put a spaceport as close to it as possible, link them (upgrades sometimes necessary).

Then, let the spaceport fill up, and export once/day or every other day (or longer, if it takes forever to fill).

Then, I will either pick up the P0, and import it to a second (factory) planet, or re-import it to the originating planet at a stationary P0-P1 set of factories (the P1 is then either sold, or hauled to a factory planet for further processing.

When the hotspot runs dry, decommission the ECU and Launchpad; and rebuild near the next hotspot.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Koujo Arji
Originally by: Nyrak
One minor, but important, point to remember about gas planets is due to their overall size (though graphics are not always perfect), running links between each module uses more processing power and thus you will have less available mining extractor heads compared to the same set-up on say a barren planet.

Whereas I may have not called certain game parts by their proper name, hopefully you get the idea.


Yeah I read that somewhere so I targeted a really small gas planet 15km I think? Anyway I guess my real concern is how long will my "hotspots" last? Long enough to double my investment? And after its depleted I guess I can use my upgraded CC to work new areas so not all of my investment is lost. There's just alot I don't know about it and I'm trying not to sink more money into it than I can get out.


yes, hotspots move.
no, you don't have to link stuff to the cc.

What you can do is make "mobile" extraction facilities. My method for this (YMMV) is to have an ECU, put a spaceport as close to it as possible, link them (upgrades sometimes necessary).

Then, let the spaceport fill up, and export once/day or every other day (or longer, if it takes forever to fill).

Then, I will either pick up the P0, and import it to a second (factory) planet, or re-import it to the originating planet at a stationary P0-P1 set of factories (the P1 is then either sold, or hauled to a factory planet for further processing.

When the hotspot runs dry, decommission the ECU and Launchpad; and rebuild near the next hotspot.



By "spaceport" do you mean "launch pad"?

Your "exporting" and "importing" is all done through the customs office?

The idea being not bothering to link up factories to far off ECUs and just moving everything manually?

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji

By "spaceport" do you mean "launch pad"?

Your "exporting" and "importing" is all done through the customs office?

The idea being not bothering to link up factories to far off ECUs and just moving everything manually?


Yeah, launchpads..

Yes, the idea is that you have cheap, highly mobile extraction set ups that you're only ever replacing two structures and a handful of extractor heads for rather than the ECU, launchpad, 4 factories, and all the requisite links.

It's a bit of give & take -- you have most associated costs (import/export fees), but you can extract more per day.

an "old-style" setup (pre PI changes in ... dec?) may have looked like Extractor -> silo/launchpad -> factory -> launchpad -> (adv. factory -> launchpad) export product ... and worked forever (no depletion to deal with) ... downside was it was a hell of a click-fest.

"New-style" PI setup is
ECU -> launchpad (launch P0)
(import P0) launchpad -> factory -> launchpad -> ( adv. factory -> launchpad ->) export product.

the (import P0) step can be on the same planet, or on another planet you control.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:50:00 - [15]
 

I don't recommend tearing everything up and moving it. That gets expensive. Just move the ECU if you must. It is the only one that you can/should use a long link on. Let it wander around your main colony.

Optional: With skill you can fit 2x sets of ECU, spaceport, and 2 or more BIF. Locate the ECU on opposite side of the planet if desired. This isn't very grid/CPU efficient though, but it can help when extracting on really lousy planets.

For what it is worth, here's what my factory planets look like (level 4 upgrade):
* P2 factory planet
* P3 factory planet
The idea is to keep links minimal as much as possible.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:59:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I don't recommend tearing everything up and moving it. That gets expensive. Just move the ECU if you must. It is the only one that you can/should use a long link on. Let it wander around your main colony.

Optional: With skill you can fit 2x sets of ECU, spaceport, and 2 or more BIF. Locate the ECU on opposite side of the planet if desired. This isn't very grid/CPU efficient though, but it can help when extracting on really lousy planets.

For what it is worth, here's what my factory planets look like (level 4 upgrade):
* P2 factory planet
* P3 factory planet
The idea is to keep links minimal as much as possible.



Wow thats a lot of factories lol. I'm guessing this is a really good planet that you extract high volumes of P0 out of? Also what is a "BIF"? I see you keep suggesting multiple planets. I was trying for now just to focus on a single planet before investing heavily in skills and ISK. Basically just to get my feet wet and learn the basics.

Marchmain
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.27 23:25:00 - [17]
 

New to PI I would stay away from gas planets. The cost of routing things is absurd because they are so big. But yeah PI is a lot of headache and a lot of work if you actually want to make money.

Creepy Blackguy
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:03:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Creepy Blackguy on 28/08/2011 00:05:19

Originally by: Marchmain
But yeah PI is a lot of headache and a lot of work if you actually want to make money.


Not really, you just have to play smart. I spent a few hours playing with the numbers in excel and figured out a setup that works perfectly fine for me.

My setup basically generates 2 million ISK profit per day and only takes about 10 minutes of work from me each day to manage. That may not seem like a lot, but a) it's pretty much auto-pilot, and b) that's only for 1 planet.

(I'm expanding to more planets shortly now that I've figured it out).

2 million ISK/day x 30 days x 5 planets = 300M ISK/month.

And that's in highsec.

And this toon only has 400k SP.

And at 10 mins/day, that's 300 mins/month. Aside from trading, I don't think there is another activity in eve that will generate 1 million ISK per minute of time invested each month.

PI, like all industry stuff in eve, is a game of analyzing, planning, and organizing things. If you take the time to plan things out properly then you can make a nice profit. If you just throw a bunch of random crap together and sit there waiting for profits, you'll fail.

Hockston Axe
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:30:00 - [19]
 

I made a rather too long post in this related thread with several screen shots which you may find helpful.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.28 01:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Creepy Blackguy
Edited by: Creepy Blackguy on 28/08/2011 00:05:19

Originally by: Marchmain
But yeah PI is a lot of headache and a lot of work if you actually want to make money.


Not really, you just have to play smart. I spent a few hours playing with the numbers in excel and figured out a setup that works perfectly fine for me.

My setup basically generates 2 million ISK profit per day and only takes about 10 minutes of work from me each day to manage. That may not seem like a lot, but a) it's pretty much auto-pilot, and b) that's only for 1 planet.

(I'm expanding to more planets shortly now that I've figured it out).

2 million ISK/day x 30 days x 5 planets = 300M ISK/month.

And that's in highsec.

And this toon only has 400k SP.

And at 10 mins/day, that's 300 mins/month. Aside from trading, I don't think there is another activity in eve that will generate 1 million ISK per minute of time invested each month.

PI, like all industry stuff in eve, is a game of analyzing, planning, and organizing things. If you take the time to plan things out properly then you can make a nice profit. If you just throw a bunch of random crap together and sit there waiting for profits, you'll fail.


Don't guess you could give me some specifics? What you're doing sounds exactly like what I want to do. I plan on spending much of my time PvPing in the future and I want something low maintenance but I don't need to rake in a ton of cash with it.

Creepy Blackguy
Posted - 2011.08.28 04:24:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
Don't guess you could give me some specifics? What you're doing sounds exactly like what I want to do. I plan on spending much of my time PvPing in the future and I want something low maintenance but I don't need to rake in a ton of cash with it.



I don't want to give out specific details, but a few things that made a world of difference for me:

#1) SPREADSHEETS.

Learn them. Love them. I have an excel sheet setup for the planet I've built. It shows me everything I need to know, such as: what it's producing, what it requires, how much of everything goes in and comes out, what my hourly/daily throughput is, etc.

I've also put in things like CPU/Powergrid and worked out the calculations for maximixing my planet to the fullest possible (I knew before I created this planet exactly how many extractors and refineries I was going to build, for example). My Command Center, for example, is only Level 2. But using excel and planning it out, I'm using 95% of the CPU and 96% of the Power.

When I eventually shift training time back to this character and raise Command Center Upgrades, I can easily re-work the math in seconds to figure out exactly how many more strucutres I can place, which then updates all the other calculations on the spreadsheet (I.e. if I upgrade from 5 to 8 refineries, I will know instantly what my hourly/daily input and output will be, etc).

#2) PLACEMENT

Location Location Location! Yes the sec status of the systems you are doing PI affects the amount of resources available, but if you have to make 15 jumps to haul your good to a trade hub it's not worth it unless you use courier contracts. I stay pretty close to a major trade hub, yes my output isn't as high as it would be if I moved to a 0.5 system, but I'm flying a Hoarder which is slow as hell and I would go nuts hauling it 10 jumps.

#3) FOCUS ON PROFIT

You need to think in terms of profitability. I said I make 2 million ISK/day with my setup. But that's because I did a lot of research and found what I think is the most optimal way for me to do it. I spent a lot of time browsing the market and researching what PI products would net me the most profit.

#4) Did I mention spreadsheets? If you don't have excel, use OpenOffice or Google Docs (both are free).

You may have noticed that a lot of the people who post in the Science & Industry forum use spreadsheets a lot. Simply put, there is a reason to them. They let you plan out complex systems and processes, and if you do them right you can setup calculations so you can just change 1 field and the entire sheet updates automatically.

Creepy Blackguy
Posted - 2011.08.28 05:28:00 - [22]
 

Here Koujo, this is a really basic example that I created with excel when I was first starting this. It doesn't give away how I set things up right now, so I don't mind sharing it:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


The blue boxes need to be set (market value of P0 and P1 products, and your planet configuration). When you set these, the rest of the spreadsheet automatically updates itself.

I programmed excel to that those figures and automatically work out CPU, Power, and ISK figures for the colony.

The orange box tells you how much P0 material this setup is capable of refining per hour.

The green box tells you how much P1 material is produced each hour (assuming you are harvesting enough P0 material).

As you can see, I've set the spreadsheet to use 6 extractor heads and 6 basic factories. Usually you do this on a 1:1 basis.

The yellow box tells you the market value of the P0 and P1 materials that are produced each hour. So you can see that pulling up 36,000 P0 material is worth about 36,000 ISK/hour. But by converting it to P1 material it increases to 43,200 ISK/hour (or 1.036M ISK/day).

So the challenge here is to setup your colony with the structurs shown, and have your 6 extractor heads consistently pulling in 36,000 P0 material per hour. If you are able to pull that off on a consistent basis, then you know your colony will be making you about 1 million ISK/day.

Now as I said, the planet I have setup right now pulls 2 million ISK/day with the same level of Command Center shown in the above image. So the trick is the figure out how to optimize everything you are doing :)

Other things you can tell about this colony:

It costs 3,286,000 ISK to setup and it has 600 Power and 6276 CPU still available (for links, but you might be able to squeeze another structure if you use very efficient links, etc).

And the best part is, by simply changing any of the blue box values, the entire spreadsheet automatically updates everything and shows me the numbers.

I hope that helps.

Disclaimer: The math in the above sheet may not be 100% accurate. It was my first real attempt and figuring PI out and I may have overlooked some things which were corrected in future versions.

Nyrak
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Creepy Blackguy
#2) PLACEMENT

Location Location Location! Yes the sec status of the systems you are doing PI affects the amount of resources available, ... (snipped) ... yes my output isn't as high as it would be if I moved to a 0.5 system, but I'm flying a Hoarder which is slow as hell and I would go nuts hauling it 10 jumps.


This is news to me - I thought that while each planet had its own minor variances of raw materials, that there was a distinct difference between planets in high, low, and null security space and not based upon the sec status of that particular system. Occasionally I will "look at" other planets in high security space and mentally compare them to what I have set-up and see very little in terms of differences in color scans. Granted I did not crunch numbers so I could be mistaken. Embarassed

Ihaz Yourstuff
Posted - 2011.08.28 13:49:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ihaz Yourstuff on 28/08/2011 13:49:56
Yeah it does, I've tested this and it's true. It's not a huge difference, but it does make a slight difference.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.28 15:49:00 - [25]
 

Ok been doing a lot of thinking on this. I've decided to manage 3 planets. 2 planets extracting and producing P1 and a third planet to combine them to P2. The problem I'm having now is deciding what to produce. It seems the highest priced P2 items generally involve a component that is low in supply (which makes sense). So I'm torn between trying to produce less for more or more for less.

The next concern is it seems the planets in my home system (0.8 sec ) really suck. Just playing around with the first extractor I laid down earlier this week it seems it would take 6 extractor heads to supply one factory on a 1 day cycle. Should I look for planets in 0.5 security or do all high sec planets suck? I really don't know enough about the game to venture into low sec yet.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:42:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 28/08/2011 16:43:23

Quantity over quality.

You can mange planets from a long distance, but I wouldn't recommend further than say 3 jumps from home because you still have to haul.

Creepy Blackguy
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:45:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
Ok been doing a lot of thinking on this. I've decided to manage 3 planets. 2 planets extracting and producing P1 and a third planet to combine them to P2. The problem I'm having now is deciding what to produce. It seems the highest priced P2 items generally involve a component that is low in supply (which makes sense). So I'm torn between trying to produce less for more or more for less.

The next concern is it seems the planets in my home system (0.8 sec ) really suck. Just playing around with the first extractor I laid down earlier this week it seems it would take 6 extractor heads to supply one factory on a 1 day cycle. Should I look for planets in 0.5 security or do all high sec planets suck? I really don't know enough about the game to venture into low sec yet.


Try and find a 0.5 system near your current location. You can do it really quickly by opening the Star Map and fiddling with the settings so it color-codes the systems by sec status, yellow is 0.5. Rens, for example, has 2x 0.5 systems within about 4 jumps, for example (maybe more, can't remember).

Lowsec will get you more yes, but you run the risk of pirates and gate camps and all that other fun stuff.

Nullsec (shows as negative sec status in game) you can't even attempt unless you are in a corp which has sovereignty in the system (I learned this the hard way after hauling 5 command centers out to a -0.3 system last week lol...too bad, I found a system 11 jumps from Rens that has hot white spots for Ionic Solutions lol).

But the best places to get PI going is w-space (wormholes). You can get some pretty impressive extractions going, but that's a whole game in itself because the wormholes shift constantly and unless you know what you are doing you could setup in a system that is a nightmare to get to.

6 extractor heads to supply 1 factory sounds pretty bad. What is the scanner showing for the resource? If the planet in general doesn't have more than about a 30% concentration on the little slider in the planet scanner, it's probably not worth attempting.

Also - what are your Planetology and Advanced Planetology skills at? Those make a huge difference when trying to figure out where to place things. I have Planetology 4 and Advanced Planetology 3 and it does a pretty good job, but I've heard Adv Planetology 4 is the sweet spot for finding stuff.

If you cannot find a planet that with reasonable distance that has the resources you want, try a different region or focus on producing stuff that you can get in good quantities where you are. Aqueous Liquids are in huge supply in almost every highsec system. It may not sound exciting, but that would let you mass produce Water, which is used in a lot of the popular P2 schematics. Sure it's market value is only 200 ISK, but you only need to make 5000/day to make 1 million ISK profit. That's doable, would take some work to figure it out but you could do it fairly easily.

Koujo Arji
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:44:00 - [28]
 

My skills are still pretty low but working on them. I didn't have much luck in the 0.5 systems but I have found a couple of higher sec systems with planets with around 50% Aquenous Liquids and another one jump away with 45% ish Micro Organisms. I was thinking maybe I could produce some test cultures. Maybe not awesome isk but profitable?

Torva Licentia
Posted - 2011.08.29 05:47:00 - [29]
 

Gas planets are rough. When depletion forces you to move your ECUs in order to be able to reach the better hotspots, the powergrid cost to power your links will skyrocket, and the only other solution is to keep a second launchpad next to your ECU so that you can export and then import to the launchpad at your production facilities, and that creates two issues. First is the extra powergrid/CPU to run the second launchpad. Second is that when you move your ECU, you have to move the launchpad with it and the 1mil cost can demolish your profits.

Highsec PI beyond P1 materials and gas planets really don't mix.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.29 06:41:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Koujo Arji
My skills are still pretty low but working on them. I didn't have much luck in the 0.5 systems but I have found a couple of higher sec systems with planets with around 50% Aquenous Liquids and another one jump away with 45% ish Micro Organisms. I was thinking maybe I could produce some test cultures. Maybe not awesome isk but profitable?

Depends. Is there a market for Test Cultures?

I'm beginning to think you should Just do it™ and see what happens. At some point one has to leave the spreadsheets behind, as they only take you so far.


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