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L'Acuto
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:49:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: L''Acuto on 30/08/2011 15:49:28
Accommodating for your numbers, Tiny Mongo, incursion payouts still generate an extra 25-35 million isk an hour per player. Let me low ball participation to say 100 players across 2 constellations, that's still 2.5 billion an hour, 57.5 billion a day, 400 billion per week, or 1.725 trillion per month extra isk in game. This extra isk is still 1% of the daily market across the game.

What your carebearness is ignoring is that isk is a commodity and that this payout system has increased that source without increasing a sink or a loss mechanism. As more and more isk enters the game and less evaporates, each individual unit of isk becomes less valuable; inflation?

If you are so hard for incursion rewards and it's the only carrot CCP has at the moment to get you guys into fleets, CCP could reduce insurance payouts on ship losses to mitigate the extra isk created - perhaps eliminate insurance payouts to ships lost to incursions.

Tiny Mongo
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:52:00 - [32]
 

If you are worried about inflation in the game you would do well to address botting in EVE before you consider nerfing incursions. How much income would you say comes from all the ratting/mining/missioning/sanctum running bots?


If the real concern is ideal isk/hour generation:

I personally feel that the best solo content should always be worse then the worst group content as far as isk generation (not including LP influenced isk since that fluctuates day to day). The reason being my group content depends on more than my ship and my skills, while your solo mission/site does not. I could end up in an absolutely terrible group and only make 30 or 40 mil an hour before ammo costs are subtracted. Sure I could just leave the fleet but if there isn't any other fleet or they are looking for logi instead of DPS I don't get to play or a switch to a logi and roll the dice for having that fleet be better than the last.

P.S. There can be many other factors inducing Plex/GTC prices to spike. One off the top of my head is the global financial downturn. More people are out of work and are buying plexes to keep the accounts up where they used to be selling plexes. What this means is supply is dropping and demand goes up. Another factor being its late summer - plex prices tend to rise during the summer and drop during the winter months.

L'Acuto
Posted - 2011.08.30 21:47:00 - [33]
 

As I pointed out before, what you are referring to as "solo" content in 0.0 relies on the support of alliances of hundreds if not thousands of players. Alliance support un-solos that content. Sov is the ultimate group activity in this game and its only reward is access to the rich resources, loot, and bounties that are found there. I find your argument on this point, Tiny Mongo, myopic. If you think 0.0 is safe, try ratting in hostile space, or try pirate mission running where a friendly alliance is not near by (which, by the way, I find has a terrible risk to reward ratio).

Bots are every where and spies are in every channel, and on every forum. I don't know the numbers on the bots and you have not provided any. I'd have to do some research and crazy thinking on it before I could splatter these forums with that nonsense. A classic solution for bots, that gets perpetually proposed and rejected, is to get rid of local in null sec.

The real cream pie you provided was the global economic down turn.
Originally by: Tiny Mongo
More people are out of work and are buying plexes to keep the accounts up where they used to be selling plexes.

Is this community that pathetic? Maybe I should just quit.

Chargon
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:54:00 - [34]
 

Null sec pilots choose to spend trillions of isk to secure that space. Your choice to be in that position. Stop crying about high sec pilots making good isk.


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:08:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: L'Acuto
As I pointed out before, what you are referring to as "solo" content in 0.0 relies on the support of alliances of hundreds if not thousands of players. Alliance support un-solos that content.


I'll remember that one for the next time I'm told not to rat in systems claimed by another corporation in my alliance Laughing

Vizvig
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:51:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Vizvig on 31/08/2011 14:53:36
Edited by: Vizvig on 31/08/2011 14:51:29
Originally by: L'Acuto
Edited by: L''Acuto on 28/08/2011 19:44:41
A player in null sec on a diet of sanctums can earn about 45 million an hour. However, a player on a diet of vanguard incursions in high sec can earn about 100 million an hour. When done competently, high sec vanguards can be done rapidly and with out risk where as sanctums are vulnerable to ambush. I've seen a few Pirate faction battleships with multi billion isk fits in incursions.

Perhaps this is unfeasible, but Incursions should drop the security status of a system below 0.5 (become low sec). If that is unfeasible then divide the concord payout by 4 or more.

I suspect that the profitability of incursions is driving inflation which I find most notable in the GTC and PLEX trade. The last time GTC prices were this high was right before CCP's isk farmer purge; GTC prices then hit about 850 million.

Sanctums began to inject too much isk into the game before space improvements got nerfed and now Incursions are doing the same, and with a very unbalanced risk to reward ratio.

TL;DR - nerf incursions: reduce highsec payouts or have incursions reduce highsec to lowsec. As every player knows CCP is really good about nerfing.

As an after thought, another nerf could be to slow each incursion spawn rate, perhaps to one per hour.

Dont forget 'sanktum' hamster: incursions it's not just farm with pimp mobile or I.Nulli tengu on BOT.
For incursions you need colect fleet, and if you think risk too low bring your pimp mobile to inc. say me before, where you do it, i want loot.

Compare nulli tengu with inc fleet (not 100kk !, +1-2hours to collect fleet necessary) , 40kk*4+100kk for LP =260kk per day ( ! dont forget time to collect fleet) for vanguard fleet for 4 hours and nulli tengu with about 35kk*23+300kk from expedition's sell=1105kk (!) feel difference.

also no one restrict's you farm expeditions 300kk/hour in bounty regs and about 110kk/hour in drone regs.

If you don't lyke multi bill isk ships just suicide them.

L'Acuto
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:11:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: L''Acuto on 01/09/2011 01:55:45
Edited by: L''Acuto on 01/09/2011 01:14:51
Edited by: L''Acuto on 01/09/2011 01:12:53
Vizvig, I think you're missing a few of my points, your numbers on null sec are exaggerated, and your nulli tengu bot phantom pulling in 300 M isk an hour, 23 hours a day, is pure fiction. As far as the risk to reward ratio, you have misunderstood my averages concerning incursionists, and you are comparing bots to players; your analogy is out of context.

For reference, A super carrier might be able to rip through a sanctum in 20-25 minutes and generate an income of 120+ M isk per hour; I know a carrier can do about 60 M isk an hour on Sanctums. As far as a bot roaming from system to system, scanning down a juicy sites and by luck getting and following a full trail of expeditions leading to loot worth a 1 B + isk ...get your face out of that pipe!

You might be waiting around for 1-2 hours to get into a fleet, but that does not mean there are not active fleets rifling through these sites. It only means you are not in a fleet rifling through these sites. Aren't you making new friends? Your estimate of what an average incursionist might earn in one day is out of context with the average I put forth. I don't think any individual player is running Incursions 23/7; but at any given time there are a number of players churning out that level of payout off of incursions. My estimate was that between 160-480 players were engaging incursion sites at any given time over the whole day, not the same 160-480 players over the whole day. I even reduced my payout estimates to accommodate some criticism to suggest that even such a low ball estimate indicates a problem.

The elite faction fleets I mentioned, might be displacing your access to incursion fleets. You mentioned that you only pull in 40 M isk when you get around to doing Incursions. Are you trying to get through the sites as quickly as possible to maximize your return? Is your fleet in competition with other fleets in system, which minimizes your access to sites? Are you and or whoever you fleet up with experienced or competent with incursions? With out explanation, I have to admit that at face value your 40M an hour seems quite feeble.

cyllan anassan
Amarr
DEUS EX 1
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:42:00 - [38]
 

L'Acuto.


stop spouting rubbish please, do 00 incursions with a dozen carriers and titans in your own space like all the big alliances, and the payouts are spectacular, and the risks minimal.

we have to compete heavily on high sec incursions, 00 are done by the big boys in their big capitals.


the problem with eve is that unless you are in a big alliance in 00 small corps are just salvage, and high sec players dont think the reward is worth it.



Kara Books
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:24:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Kara Books on 01/09/2011 15:39:48
Edited by: Kara Books on 01/09/2011 15:37:27
Edited by: Kara Books on 01/09/2011 15:35:28
Edited by: Kara Books on 01/09/2011 15:31:36
Uncertainty of the future is inflaming plex prices (Micro transactions) , Plex investors are taking advantage of it to raise the value of their product.

Incursions earning 100M per hour? Im a hardcore merchant, I know everything, if any one was making 100M+ per hour in high sec, I would have bin one of the first to find out.

The numbers are more along the lines of 300-750M FOR 16-18 HOURS of nonstop hardcore high-sec incursion running in a PRO group, K bro? Im calling Bull&*( on your numbers, end of story.

Perhaps, 1 of the 16 hours the few rare and downright hardcore.. but they are not, I repeat NOT making 100M per hour, more like half that ON GOOD DAYS.... sometimes they get really lucky and monumentally hit that number, sometimes they get VERY lucky and hit 100M per hour.

---Some of the idea's about concord where pretty good... How about, Allowing people to Join Sansha NPC fleets and actually allow people to engage other people under the Sansha colors? the logistics would be a pain to work out but, why not actually turn it into a REAL Sansha invasion?

Why are you mad?
They wont take your Maelstrom sniper into the fleet?
Since you think your Special every one including CCP needs to jump around you, let me introduce you to a little secret, Get into a Logi, and DO THE MISSIONS LIKE EVERY ONE ELSE WHO IS NOT SPECIAL


P.S.
Your special

Preston Vane
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:46:00 - [40]
 

Seems like i gotta add my 0.02 Isk.

As a player who has been playing for less than a year (some might call me a noob) i've done many different things to make ISK in High-Sec and some solo runs into whs.
With your average incursion fleet the income is far lower than 100mil isk/h, more in the terms of 50 to 60, even thought I know of some specialised fleets who can get you to 150mil/h, possible, but unlikely and the investment is pretty high as well isk and skill wise (no one will let a not 5/5/5 logi rep their multibil-isk shinies). So yes, when you manage to get into a fleet, considering you didn't make enough friends to get into one fast, there is good isk to be made, even if you are not in the shiny fleets.

But, what about the other means to make ISK?

First mining: All alone? meh. 6-10mil/h maybe. But no why not use several alts to mine? It's no problem to run 8-10 toons mining ice on a single comp if you want to. Good isk to be made and you can nearly do it afk. Ore is a bit more tricky, but you can still do several accs at once without using bots. So yes, possible to make 50mil per hour here.

Next running lvl 4s: Solo in the right ships blitzing the missions you can surely do 50mil+/h. Running in a small fleet of toons more. I use to fly with an arma, a domi and a noctis, so nothing fancy at all and surely gain 40mil per hour just in bounty and reward, much more for the lp, loot and salvage. A former corpmate of mine used to run level 4s with 4-5 toons at once and made up to 200mil/h if he concentrated on running missions.

Merchanting: Well, this is all about controlling the market ofc, you can make no money at all or billions per day depending on how good you are and what kinda funds you can work with.

There are so many other possibilities worth mentioning, like pirating, scanning for sites, etc. thought i'll keep it at this for now.

Conserning the inflation you talk of: The before mentioned things about plex-buyers/sellers sure play a role. Another thing would be ppl messing with prices. Last week we had the case that all but one of the HS-hubs sold plexes for 7mil higher than the last one. The day after that the prices were raised by 8mil over all, but this time another hub was the one left lower. This is merchants actively messing with prices as they see fit.

tl;dr Incursions pay good money, but you can get about the same via other means, even in high-sec.

L'Acuto
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:58:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: L''Acuto on 03/09/2011 22:01:45
Edited by: L''Acuto on 03/09/2011 21:58:36
Preston Vane, I should have stipulated that my analysis was based on a per character average instead of a per player average. One character can earn more isk off of incursions in high sec than other activities else where. I'm going to ignore your "solo" mining and ratting fleet comparisons.

Trading, as you mention, is the only exception. Hands down it is the most profitable activity, but the npc sources of isk are minimal; the most I ever pulled off of an NPC market trade was 20 million. Your account of Plex market manipulation is believable. GTC prices tend to trail Plex prices. However, the rate of GTC inflation increased after the release of Incursion and before the NEX implementation. Interesting that, Kara Brooks, the market expert did not mention this.

Kara Brooks,
Originally by: L'Acuto
I don't think any individual player is running Incursions 23/7; but at any given time there are a number of players churning out that level of payout off of incursions. My estimate was that between 160-480 players were engaging incursion sites at any given time over the whole day, not the same 160-480 players over the whole day.

I complied with previous critics and nerfed my estimates to suggest that there still was an issue.
Originally by: Kara Brooks
Why are you mad?
They wont take your Maelstrom sniper into the fleet?

Have you been looking at my killboards? I have run a few Incursions and earned 100 million/hour …with an autocannon fit, shield tanked Maelstrom. We even comped with decked out faction fleets, and still earned 100 million isk per hour. Only CCP knows what they earned.

I like your suggestion to allow players to fly under Sansha colors. Another caveat would be to make Concord unable to respond to Sansha sites; Chunicha suggested something similar.


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