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Derth Ramir
Posted - 2011.08.26 03:13:00 - [1]
 

There is none, besides long rang capabilities which can be easily countered with on grif combat probes(WHICH ARE SO FREKEN EASY TO USE)

First off to get a better idea about your general rail gun lets look at the pros and cons.

Pros
-Can apply dps from very long range

Cons
-Heavy powergrid usage
-low dps
-cap usage
-terrible tracking
-bleh alpha

Now what doesn't make sense is if a rail gun is supposed to be the ultimate long range sniper of eve which it used to be. Then apocrypha came and long range sniping battleships became obsolete with the ability to easily probe enemy ships.

So now rail guns need an upgrade to keep up with the times. Here are my proposed ideas,

1.Extremely high alpha(higher than artillery)

2.Reduce the rate of fire by about 30-50%

3.Reduce tracking(to balance out the extremely high alpha)

4.I don't think the reduced rate of fire and tracking should be as extreme compared to medium and large guns since it would drastically nerf ships like the rail ranis.

I think these changes seem pretty fair and balanced. I know I'm gonna get a lot of flame for the higher alpha than artillery(because of suicide ganks and people don't want minmitar to have any competition) but with all the downsides to rails(cap usage, terrible tracking, extremely hard fitting requirements) I believe this is EXTREMELY fair buff/balance.





Jiao Governator
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:02:00 - [2]
 

I don't see any reason to make rails the better artillery. I'd rather they went the other way (slightly better DPS but less alpha and much much much better tracking, make it the long range weapons that actually work well below their optimal). Maybe improve the alpha of hybrids so they can fill that short-range high alpha niche.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:10:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Derth Ramir
3.Reduce tracking(to balance out the extremely high alpha)



problem....caldari no tracking love. hard enough to hit the broad side of barn as is...lets not have sieged dreads bumped by warp to 0 tards speed tanking them rokhs lol.



Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:41:00 - [4]
 

How about:
- Increase optimal range by 50%
- Reduce long range ammo range bonus to 30%, increase damage by 15%
- Reduce damage by 10%, increase RoF by 10%, increase ammo capacity by 10%
- reduce power grid requirement by 10%

Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.08.26 05:57:00 - [5]
 

with the low optimail that beam weapons have they should have best tracking, next is the hybrids and especially the rails wich should have second best tracking.
projectiles should actually have the worst tracking since they have the by silly far the best optimal range.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.29 23:21:00 - [6]
 

railguns have only one good use

building supers!!! fill a few jump freighters with t1 large railguns and jump to a refining outpost or conquerable station in sov 0.0 and reprocess into lots n loads of mins... freighter said mins to csaa and build a super.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.08.29 23:49:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
railguns have only one good use

building supers!!! fill a few jump freighters with t1 large railguns and jump to a refining outpost or conquerable station in sov 0.0 and reprocess into lots n loads of mins... freighter said mins to csaa and build a super.


You !!!

Should try blasters, far better in DPS mineral amounts !!

Zi'Boo
Posted - 2011.08.30 02:01:00 - [8]
 

I know and acknowledge that railguns and hybrids in general have a problem, but if you want to get any support you may want to check your facts first...

Originally by: Derth Ramir

Cons
-Heavy powergrid usage


Railguns have the lowest powergrid requirements of all long range guns. The 425MM railgun uses about 30% less powergrid than 1400mm arties or megabeams.
Quote:

-terrible tracking


Again railguns track a bit better than artillery, they both track far worse than lasers, but that may be a problem with laser tracking being to high not railguns.

Quote:

1.Extremely high alpha(higher than artillery)

2.Reduce the rate of fire by about 30-50%

3.Reduce tracking(to balance out the extremely high alpha)

4.I don't think the reduced rate of fire and tracking should be as extreme compared to medium and large guns since it would drastically nerf ships like the rail ranis.


Right now rails fire about 4 times for every artillery shot (3 times if you include the minmatar ship rof bonus), so going by your proposal you have just created a better artillery that shoots 2 times faster (that's including your 50% rof penalty) netting a double DPS of both artillery and lasers with a huge alpha on top.

Quote:

I think these changes seem pretty fair and balanced. I know I'm gonna get a lot of flame for the higher alpha than artillery(because of suicide ganks and people don't want minmitar to have any competition) but with all the downsides to rails(cap usage, terrible tracking, extremely hard fitting requirements) I believe this is EXTREMELY fair buff/balance.



Low tracking, high alpha, high fitting cost is already a signature of artillery and you just want to make the rails just a way better artillery than artillery is with the only difference being cap usage and limited damage types for much better range...

I think you should rethink your proposal...


Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:39:00 - [9]
 

Railguns could benefit a lot from increased tracking and perhaps a better scan resolution to compensate for the missing alpha...

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.30 10:13:00 - [10]
 

As I mentioned in another thread here, I don't think the problem is with the hybrids, but rather the ships that they go on. Minmatar ships could pull them off, but the slow Caldari and Gallente can't.
Quote:
I believe the whole Minmatar/Gallente design idea is flawed. The Minmatar have great speed and the ability to control range, combined with guns that work at very varying ranged. The Gallente on the other hand are slow armor tankers that can't control range, combined with weapons that require very specific ranges, either huge range for kiting with rails, or point blank for rushing in with blasters. That causes Minmatar to border on overpowered while Gallente suck. However, if that was inversed and the Minmatar got hybrids while Gallente uses projectiles, you'd have 2 races that work fine. The Minmatar would have great speed so that they can either rush in fast and get in range with blasters, or they're so fast others have a hard time catching up and thus they can kite with rails. The Gallente would still be pretty slow and have to make do with the range the opponent chose most of them time, but their projectile guns. especially autocannons, were designed to work at any range, so that's not a problem. Solving that though would be very difficult now. Just swapping hybrid bonuses for projectiles and vice versa wouldn't work due to PG and CPU issues in addition to forcing everyone flying either race to train the other races guns, and trying to change the stats of both gun types would probably result in balance issues anyway while the proper numbers are worked out. Long term though, I can't see any other way to fix the core issues that hybrids have without turning them into either projectiles or lasers, and minmatar are the only ones that could make the hybrids work.

I did forget about Caldari hybrids when I posted that though...not sure what to do with them, but since they mainly use missiles anyway, it's not a disaster.

Krieg Taniss
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:57:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Krieg Taniss on 30/08/2011 13:57:14

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:26:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: MeBiatch on 30/08/2011 15:39:06
steps to fix railguns:

1. reduce activation cost by 40%
2. inrease rate of fire by 15%
3. increase base damage multiplier by 15%
4. change the optimal range bonus on Caldari ships to 5% bonus to rate of fire per level

do this and you will end up with a rokh that does 1000 dps at 100 kmYARRRR!!
the guns will still have crap tracking and PG issues and still the lowest alpha compared to beams and arties... but meh it will be worth it to do that kind of damage

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:35:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: MeBiatch on 30/08/2011 15:36:53
Originally by: Zi'Boo
I know and acknowledge that railguns and hybrids in general have a problem, but if you want to get any support you may want to check your facts first...

Originally by: Derth Ramir

Cons
-Heavy powergrid usage


Railguns have the lowest powergrid requirements of all long range guns. The 425MM railgun uses about 30% less powergrid than 1400mm arties or megabeams.
Quote:

-terrible tracking


Again railguns track a bit better than artillery, they both track far worse than lasers, but that may be a problem with laser tracking being to high not railguns.

Quote:

1.Extremely high alpha(higher than artillery)

2.Reduce the rate of fire by about 30-50%

3.Reduce tracking(to balance out the extremely high alpha)

4.I don't think the reduced rate of fire and tracking should be as extreme compared to medium and large guns since it would drastically nerf ships like the rail ranis.


Right now rails fire about 4 times for every artillery shot (3 times if you include the minmatar ship rof bonus), so going by your proposal you have just created a better artillery that shoots 2 times faster (that's including your 50% rof penalty) netting a double DPS of both artillery and lasers with a huge alpha on top.

Quote:

I think these changes seem pretty fair and balanced. I know I'm gonna get a lot of flame for the higher alpha than artillery(because of suicide ganks and people don't want minmitar to have any competition) but with all the downsides to rails(cap usage, terrible tracking, extremely hard fitting requirements) I believe this is EXTREMELY fair buff/balance.



Low tracking, high alpha, high fitting cost is already a signature of artillery and you just want to make the rails just a way better artillery than artillery is with the only difference being cap usage and limited damage types for much better range...

I think you should rethink your proposal...




not to nit pick but when he says poor pg he is talking in relation to pg of gallente/caldari ship which have a hard time putting on a full rack of the largest size rails... (see the eagle as an example)

the lousy tracking is ok if a. the guns are doing lots of dps. b. shoot really far (which was stated by the op being no longer an option)

though the rest of your points are right on the mark...

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:50:00 - [14]
 

I somewhat agree with you Steave, but there are platforms where blasters do function well and do pretty decent damage (megas and vindis, astartes, proteus). However speed is a problem iff you plan on soloing or doing medium sized fleet fights where people aren't entirely balled up. Minmatar have the advantage that most of their ships can keep up and tackle for themselves. Gallente are dependant on others to tackle for them. Its one of the drawbacks of the race of ships. Blasters absolutely shine in WHs where engagement ranges are almost always within 10km, and when you get those vindicators on someone, its good night.

I think a few of the blaster/rail platforms may have a bit of a concept problem, or its just that everyone wants to fly their ships like matari ships.


 

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