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Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
I'm just asking you to consider something here. Are capital ships the problem, or are supercapitals? And if supercapitals are the problem, why are you introducing something that hunts capital ships?

Any time you introduce a new species to an ecosystem, you get consequences. Some are intentional, certainly, but there are unforeseen ones as well. And the more complex the ecosystem, the more consequences arise. CCP is having enough difficulty balancing the capital ship ecosystem as it is. Is introducing another predator really the best way to handle this?


These would really not be much more effective against caps as the same number of ships but in a BS fleet. And these ships are much more expensive. The idea here is to get off both the capital and SC blob napfest blue it or blow it up that is currently the FOTY. Captials are considered to be mostly throw a way ships that are more expensive than a BS. SCs are the pride and joy we have to be careful committing these to battle. You can buy a capital with a long weekend of grinding in decent 0.0 space.


The goal of CCP as i understand it is not to have one ship type/setup as mega blobs. Unfornuately, for CCP, no dev has ever managed to make a game where alliance speccing one or two types of builds is not the best route to the WEPWNALL Button. at least none i ever have heard of or played. Creating a game where ships are balanced and speccing a whole fleet of ships is not as beneficial as a mixed fleet would be the Holy Grail of MMOs. It's something that borders on the impossible. While the goal is kind of like Rock Paper Scissors, it definitely isnt that easy to achieve that kind of balance. But if anyone can do it CCP can. Not brown nosing but ive played a lot of MMOs and SP games and CCP has the most creative, innovative and best in general devs i have ever seen in my 14 years of online gaming. And thats not a compliment i give lightly cause i have seen some really good devs in my time but the ones at CCP seem to be the pick of the litter.

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:39:00 - [32]
 

For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:47:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?


The man speaks sense. Wink

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:02:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.

Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:11:00 - [35]
 

We dont need a special new class to hunt capitals, because we already have such a class: supercaps.

In all seriousness, if we're not going to to just delete supercaps (and I still favour this solution), then the answer is to make them essentially worthless vs subcaps, in the same way that long range BS are worthless vs frigates.

Nerf the ever-living crap out of titan gun tracking so that it's only 25% or so better than seiged dread tracking, make the DD inefficient vs subcaps (give it a explosion radius of 3000m and an explosion velocity of 100m/s or so), and nerf fighter-bombers similarly.

Finally, remove the rig slots from supercaps. They're only ever used for T2 hitpoint rigs anyway, and the massive EHP of these ships is half the problem.

I honestly have no objection to seeing supers in massive capital battles; that's where they belong. The endless ****ery of seeing subcap fleets decimated by massed Titans has to stop. Alliances that deploy supers without a proper support fleet should expect to lose them.

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:17:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 27/08/2011 20:17:14
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.

Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.


You know, I agree with that, but you can't fix this without reworking what you added in the game. First thing is to nerf supercap and specialise them in ONE role, with weakness, after you do that with all the capitals, then maybe you will be abble to dream about mixed fleets.

Edit: Anyways, the first largest big problem was the introduction of capital ships and jump drives.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:23:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.

Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.


Normal capital ships can practically be countered with fleets of ships that aren't capitals. In any case, the fundamental unit of a fleet is the pilot. Titans cost 20x as much as dreads, but that doesn't mean that a pilot who doesn't want to deploy his titan can bring 20 dreads instead.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:42:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
We dont need a special new class to hunt capitals, because we already have such a class: supercaps.




And here this whole thread i thought we was talking about hunting/nerfing supercaps. The problem with nerfing is many people have invested or are investing a lot of isk and time into these ships. Nor is it necessary to just hit the delete button and send them to the trash bin. They need a reduced role. Really i think the vision was for these supers to lead a fleet not BE THE FLEET. Say a titan a couple of supercarriers and then a small fleet of 30-50 caps with a support fleet of a couple hundred mixed sub caps. In a perfect eve i believe this is what CCP envisioned. But as with all MMOS, It stops being about playing the game and starts being about either surviving or trying to "win". Its always the players that think they must win the whole sandbox and claim i beat Eve that start the process of ruining it. Then you have the players that counter this with the "I must survive" and use the same tactics to counter the IMUSTWIN crowd. And thus a downward spiral until everyone quits and goes and starts the process over on a new MMO.

Quote:
First thing is to nerf supercap and specialise them in ONE role, with weakness, after you do that with all the capitals, then maybe you will be abble to dream about mixed fleets.


Thus the role of black ops class. They create a weakness in Supercaps. Especially after i added the the mod that lowers all resistance across the board. Anyone can take advantage of the weakness. And then their is the dread. Again in large groups these should be able to counter a few supers. But 1/2 a dozen supers can turn a fleet of 20 30 dreads into scrap metal pretty quickly.

Quote:
Titans cost 20x as much as dreads, but that doesn't mean that a pilot who doesn't want to deploy his titan can bring 20 dreads instead.
Last i looked the base cost of a dread around a billion and the base cost of a titan was around 60-80 bil did the cost drop?

Your missing an important factor here. That Titan pilot spent alot of time training and alot of money aquiring that titan and fitting it. That means only a select class of individuals can fly these things. So when you go out in an ALL SC fleet You may have 50-200 SCs available in your napfest of 10-20k people. But when you drop down to the much cheaper and much easier to skill dread. Now all the sudden your fleet isnt 50-200 SC pilots but 400-800 cap pilots out of the same 10k-20k people.

I mean seriously just about everyone that is over 2 1/2 years old that lives in 0.0 can fly or is really close to being able to fly a carrier or dread.And you can spend a couple to 3 days ratting 0.0 hardcore and make enough to buy and fit one. 4-6 days for a dread. 2 1/2 -3 months for a supercarrier just to buy the ship no fittings.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.29 10:51:00 - [39]
 

Spending more isk in Eve has never and should never give anyone a big advantage...

Fit Dread: 1,5b vs 15b :Supercarrier (Aprox)
10 dreads vs 1 supercarrier -> I wouldn't be surprised if the supercarrier won

Fit BS: 150m vs 1,5b :Carrier w/Fighters
10 BS vs 1 Carrier -> I would be surprised if the carrier survived

Obviously game gets far more interesting adding support and multiple supercarriers, however fleets of supercarriers and titans proven numerous times that they can win fights hugely outnumbered without any support.

There are massive issues to adress and I don't belive single solutions will solve everything, however nerfing hitpoints, agressive potential and adressing some of the e-war immunity and Remote Repairability will get Eve a long way...
Limiting numbers will be way difficult and seem very artificial - People should be allowed to fly what they want.

Mylor Torlone
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:20:00 - [40]
 

Just remove the super capitals and be done with it. Honestly.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:24:00 - [41]
 

Hey look a thread filled with terrible ideas with Malcanis being the only sensible person posting. How novel.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:47:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn


Thus the role of black ops class. They create a weakness in Supercaps.


No, they create targets for supercaps. Then those supercaps create Black ops wrecks. Then those former black ops pilots swear at their FC and start grinding for their own supercap.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:29:00 - [43]
 

Quote:

Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob.



Before there were caps people BS blobbed. It doesn't matter what ship is the biggest ship, people will blob in it.

If the blobbing is ever to stop, it needs to be possible for small groups of people to get stuff done. Release specialized modules/ships/skills that hack into PoS'es and Moon Miners to disable and steal the resources from them until dealt with. Release a dreadnaught module that disrupts the docking bays of an outpost so nobody can dock there as long as the mod is activated on the station. Stuff like that.

Make it so alliances have to actually defend their space and the resources it offers instead of painting 5 regions in their color and blobbing up 500 capitals on sunday evening to show who's boss.

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:50:00 - [44]
 

If you wana fix Supers, all you need o do is Buff dreads, so that dreads are a viable counter for supers, 100 man dread fleet worth 100b-200b (max) You just need to manage to kill 5-10 supers with focus fire in order to come out on top.

Add a damage bonus to Dreads with siege greater than it's current bonus to justify bringing back a rarely used ship and a counter to supers.

Cause even if you nerf supers, You can't nerf the fact that the alliances that own multiple supers will still have the super blob

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:18:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Emperor Ryan
If you wana fix Supers, all you need o do is Buff dreads, so that dreads are a viable counter for supers, 100 man dread fleet worth 100b-200b (max) You just need to manage to kill 5-10 supers with focus fire in order to come out on top.

Add a damage bonus to Dreads with siege greater than it's current bonus to justify bringing back a rarely used ship and a counter to supers.

Cause even if you nerf supers, You can't nerf the fact that the alliances that own multiple supers will still have the super blob


kinda silly just to buff dreads as they buffed moms to take on dreads...

tbh the change from pos based sov is what killed dreads...

If anything introduce a cap ship that uses e-war against cap ships but only when its in seige mode... make the ship vulnerable to sub cap ships and presto... we have balance in the force...


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