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blankseplocked [Proposal] Remove Drones from all Minmatar Hulls (BS and Down)
 
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.25 19:52:00 - [1]
 

Remove drones as a way to slightly nerf Minmatar ships which currently dominate eve-kill.net Top 20 and are in need of some rebalancing.

Removing drones won't affect Minmatar overpowered alpha (artillery) niche.

Minnies have speed, agility, scan res, extra high slots, etc... for GTFO and dealing with smaller class opponents. They shouldn't need warrior II's nor ecm drones to deal with smaller opponents.

They already use projectiles and missiles for capless dps, so no need to make them further resistant to neuts either.

Many Minmatar ships would, however, be forced to think about protection against smaller ships (neuts) versus damage (missiles), and they would need to be more careful piloting (with their faster and more agile ships) within scram range without the gtfo ability of ec- drones (and they would still have their GTFO neut ability).


Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:10:00 - [2]
 

Minmatar are flavor of the month. They could use some balancing. But restricting drone size is questionable. I would rather:

  • Lose the extra 8%~10% DPS they gained on the short range ammo with the projectile buff. They got ammo damage purity and greater ranges to apply it with falloff tiers and TE/TC.
  • Shorten the range of artillery.
  • I'm also looking at the intel tools they roll out. Minmatar are supposed to be the ass-backwards race technologically. They might fit alot of guns on their ships - but the other races should be able to run circles around them with intel gathering. It could be a great equalizer. The barbarians of the Roman world were big and buff but couldn't match the organization and professionalism of the Legions. It could be the same here.


The final point is that alot of the other isses are relevant to the other races. Caldari and Gallente boats need some hybrid love as well as a look at their fitting grid. Hybrids and Lasers could both go for an ammo redo in the same style that Minmatar had. And Caldari and maybe Ammar boats could go for some more drones themselves.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:11:00 - [3]
 

Are you going to nerf Amarr at the same time? Oh and the Gal drone boats and caldari missile boats?

Cos they are all as powerful as any minmatar ship.

Amarr are generally better in fleets due to higher EHP and resists as well as the longer range of lasers.

Minmatar are only slightly better for very small scale PvP, at the mid level (15-50) man fleets both are fairly near equal, different roles but very similar in terms of overall ability. What you are suggesting basically gives minmatar a massive disadvantage vs other races, less so in fleets but removing their only advantage in small scale PvP.

Anyone with any clue about projectiles will tell you, you are fecked if you let the opponent dictate range, which means any time we are faced with small enemies we are in trouble. A thorax will **** a vaga if it can dictate range, and one scram + web is all it needs. Ditto if you can't against anything amarr, which also leaves you sitting in their neut/web range again.....

Also of your list of minmatar advantages, only speed and agility are valid. Extra highs? No, the same number as most enemies, perhaps 1 more in a few cases and then mainly without the CPU/PG to fit it properly. Most enemies of the same class have about the same number of highs. Scan res? Nope, again about the same. GTFO only against shorter range enemies. If you sit outside of web/scram range of a laser boat, you are toast, soon as you are inside that range, well you can't GTFO at all.

Capless dps is nice, however if you want to list this as an advantage, you first need to increase our cap to the same as the other races, most have significantly less recharge.

Lower EHP in general as the other same class ships.

>Removing drones won't affect Minmatar overpowered alpha (artillery) niche.

The fact you think this is what minmatar are about proves how little you understand PvP or minmatar.





Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Remove drones as a way to slightly nerf Minmatar ships which currently dominate eve-kill.net Top 20 and are in need of some rebalancing.

Removing drones won't affect Minmatar overpowered alpha (artillery) niche.

Minnies have speed, agility, scan res, extra high slots, etc... for GTFO and dealing with smaller class opponents. They shouldn't need warrior II's nor ecm drones to deal with smaller opponents.

They already use projectiles and missiles for capless dps, so no need to make them further resistant to neuts either.

Many Minmatar ships would, however, be forced to think about protection against smaller ships (neuts) versus damage (missiles), and they would need to be more careful piloting (with their faster and more agile ships) within scram range without the gtfo ability of ec- drones (and they would still have their GTFO neut ability).




Show me on the doll where the hurricane touched you

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:34:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Anyone with any clue about projectiles will tell you, you are fecked if you let the opponent dictate range, which means any time we are faced with small enemies we are in trouble. A thorax will **** a vaga if it can dictate range, and one scram + web is all it needs. Ditto if you can't against anything amarr, which also leaves you sitting in their neut/web range again.....

Luckily for Minmatar that they are designed to control range, huh? Minmatar neuts will f*** up the Thorax before the Thorax can apply any dps, and the Vaga will be able to move out of scram/web range and then kite the Thorax for an easy win. BTW, where do drones fit into this scenario? Do you feel that Minmatar superior speed/agility and extra high slots aren't enough for GTFO? You want ec- drones as well for overkill GTFO?

Quote:

>Removing drones won't affect Minmatar overpowered alpha (artillery) niche.

The fact you think this is what minmatar are about proves how little you understand PvP or minmatar.

My bad. Minmatar is about being overpowered with alpha, killing anything (their size or) smaller with ridiculous ease, and being able to GTFO whenever they like.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:40:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Show me on the doll where the hurricane touched you
Right there. (/me points to doll). The Thrasher touched me at that spot. The Sabre right there. The rifter and Vaga over here, and the Tempest right over there. I can't show you where the Macherial touched me. It wasn't in a good spot. Very Happy

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:47:00 - [7]
 

Not a bad idea to at least reduce the drones... Something is in order but The autocannons are one of the real I-win buttons for the minmatar ships atm.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.25 23:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Danika Princip
Show me on the doll where the hurricane touched you
Right there. (/me points to doll). The Thrasher touched me at that spot. The Sabre right there. The rifter and Vaga over here, and the Tempest right over there. I can't show you where the Macherial touched me. It wasn't in a good spot. Very Happy


The thrasher, sabre and rifter don't even have drones, the vaga gets what, five lights, and there is all of ONE BS hull that has less drone space than a tempest. Could you explain to me how exactly the drones on these ships make them overpowered? You can't even fit a tank on most of those.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Rhinanna
Anyone with any clue about projectiles will tell you, you are fecked if you let the opponent dictate range, which means any time we are faced with small enemies we are in trouble. A thorax will **** a vaga if it can dictate range, and one scram + web is all it needs. Ditto if you can't against anything amarr, which also leaves you sitting in their neut/web range again.....

Luckily for Minmatar that they are designed to control range, huh? Minmatar neuts will f*** up the Thorax before the Thorax can apply any dps, and the Vaga will be able to move out of scram/web range and then kite the Thorax for an easy win. BTW, where do drones fit into this scenario? Do you feel that Minmatar superior speed/agility and extra high slots aren't enough for GTFO? You want ec- drones as well for overkill GTFO?

Quote:

>Removing drones won't affect Minmatar overpowered alpha (artillery) niche.

The fact you think this is what minmatar are about proves how little you understand PvP or minmatar.

My bad. Minmatar is about being overpowered with alpha, killing anything (their size or) smaller with ridiculous ease, and being able to GTFO whenever they like.


Thanks for the clear demonstration you have no idea how to play.

The alpha is only useful when you are in a fleet large enough to one shot stuff, so basically large dedicated fleets that are extremely vulnerable to enemy gangs getting in close and raping them. Yes they have a strength, countered by a weakness. Maels have more alpha, 'pests are slightly better at Gtfo. Its called balance.

Yes, minmatar ships are designed to dictate range, because if they weren't then ACs would be completely useless and to a lesser degree arties. Trying to maintain the correct range to deal the maximum possible damage while receiving less yourself from the enemy is nearly impossible if they are a skilled pilot and completely impossible to maintain the GTFO ability while doing so. Given our virtually universal lower EHP, it doesn't take long of losing our ideal range for us to go pop. But yes lets ignore that, lets ignore the mixed weapons resulting in lower overall dps, lets ignore the lack of dedicated mid or low slots on any ship to actually fit a decent tank and ANY form of e-war (shield tanks) or damage boost (armour tanks) or the fact if we DO fit an armour tank, almost universally the best for EHP, we lose the only advantage we had to dictate range....

Where are these extra highs btw? A couple of ships have extra highs, thats it. Hardly a universal minmatar trait. Same as a few of the gal ships have more mids/lows total slots compared to other races, combined with a bigger drone bay than anything else it's size.

Same as the caldari can deal max damage from far longer ranges than anything else due to no missile damage reduction at range.

Same as the Amarr, long range for good damage with excellent EHP and resists.

You can quote the advantages of any race without mentioning the disadvantages to twist it to try and make them seem overpowered yes. Thats easy. Doesn't make it true.

So perhaps, next time, before posting something daft, please try and think about it from all angles and think about the weak-points instead just about their strong points. It will actually help you defeat them.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:12:00 - [10]
 

Without light scouts at least a Minmatar ship will get picked apart by other drones and frigates.



Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
The thrasher, sabre and rifter don't even have drones, the vaga gets what, five lights, and there is all of ONE BS hull that has less drone space than a tempest. Could you explain to me how exactly the drones on these ships make them overpowered? You can't even fit a tank on most of those.


and the arty rant confuses me too.....arty can't hit worth a crap if they get up close and fly under the guns. Which is why the true arty boats have a drone bay, drones all they got once a competent players flies under the guns.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:31:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Yes, minmatar ships are designed to dictate range, because if they weren't then ACs would be completely useless and to a lesser degree arties. Trying to maintain the correct range to deal the maximum possible damage while receiving less yourself from the enemy is nearly impossible if they are a skilled pilot and completely impossible to maintain the GTFO ability while doing so.


All ships, and all pilots have this issue. Being able to dictate range makes you either a rapist or untouchable. Almost all solo fits are based around this idea, and the minny ships being the absolute best at it is what makes them so awesome.

At the same time, this IS a team game in general, and you can't balance ships around solo fighting, because that would break the team part of the game.

I wish wish wish, upon every star in new-eden, that my gallente ships would be worth something solo, but I've come to realize that it's either cross-train or stick to fleets for me (with the exception of certain niche ships <3 Ishkur.)

Originally by: Rhinanna
Given our virtually universal lower EHP, it doesn't take long of losing our ideal range for us to go pop.


Not that that will ever happen, if the person in the minny ship has even a basic knowledge of solo pvp.

Originally by: Rhinanna
But yes lets ignore that, lets ignore the mixed weapons resulting in lower overall dps, lets ignore the lack of dedicated mid or low slots on any ship to actually fit a decent tank and ANY form of e-war...


Anyone who mixes weapon types/ranges deserves to lose. Min/max, baby.

You're going to have to choose between ewar and tank. Most (not all, but most) ships that are designed to be good at ewar can't fit a tank either. The ewar IS their tank. Plus, as the OP has brought up, you don't need to "fit" the ewar, you can just pop a couple of drones out to do it for you.

Originally by: Rhinanna
So perhaps, next time, before posting something daft, please try and think about it from all angles and think about the weak-points instead just about their strong points. It will actually help you defeat them.


Yes, minnies have their disadvantages, but those aren't really as relevant in 1v1, which is obviously what the op is upset about. As I mentioned before, though, balancing for 1v1 is pretty difficult because it breaks team fights.

Anyways, I'm less for busting out the nerf-bat and more for bringing down the buff-stick. If fail-guns tracked just a teensy bit better I might actually consider fielding a deimos, but that's a horse of a different color.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:43:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Plyn
Anyone who mixes weapon types/ranges deserves to lose. Min/max, baby.


Unfortunatley, the slot layout and hardpoints of most minnie ships make it pretty hard to do anything else. You pretty much need to mix weapon types to squeeze the maximum DPS out of a ship, especially something like a typhoon, for example.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.26 01:42:00 - [14]
 

I started off in Minmatar ships. When I started to move to other races I was absolutely horrified at how tight their fitting requirements were. Minmatar you can always seem to fit the largest AC tier along with a very healthy buffer. Good luck doing that with a Gallente or Caldari hybrid boat.


Jiao Governator
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:07:00 - [15]
 

The Drone loadouts on the Minmatar ships seem fair, or at least the worst way to balance them. First, the ridiculous falloff bonus from Tracking Enhancers should be halved. After that (and after the nerf to the Dram), Gallente and Caldari hybrid boats should be looked at to bring them to the level of the proj/laser boats.

SpawnSupreme
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:12:00 - [16]
 

DUDE STF UP YO!!!! minmitar is the race that is second best at everything and they rely on not having the best but rather have many options at their desposal only thing that hurst minmitar the most is they utilize many wepon types rather than a full rack of same wepon like other races and most the ships for minmitar give bonuss to 1 wepon type when they should expand the minmitar wepon bonus for example now the bonus say +5 damage to projectile when it should say +5 to projectile and/or missile so that all minmitar wepons gain bonus.
they fix this for typhoon but not the only ship they need to do this fix too.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: SpawnSupreme
DUDE STF UP YO!!!! minmitar is the race that is second best at everything and they rely on not having the best but rather have many options at their desposal only thing that hurst minmitar the most is they utilize many wepon types rather than a full rack of same wepon like other races and most the ships for minmitar give bonuss to 1 wepon type when they should expand the minmitar wepon bonus for example now the bonus say +5 damage to projectile when it should say +5 to projectile and/or missile so that all minmitar wepons gain bonus.
they fix this for typhoon but not the only ship they need to do this fix too.



First, learn sentence structure and grammar. This hurts my eyes to read. Second, if Minmatar were truly second in everything then Gallente blasterboats would be the fastest ships in the game. Obviously that isn't the case.Rolling Eyes

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Plyn
Anyone who mixes weapon types/ranges deserves to lose. Min/max, baby.


Unfortunatley, the slot layout and hardpoints of most minnie ships make it pretty hard to do anything else. You pretty much need to mix weapon types to squeeze the maximum DPS out of a ship, especially something like a typhoon, for example.


This statement makes absolutely no sense outside of EFT.

Sure, you can get an extra 2 guns on to whatever fit for whatever ship if you mix, but in real gameplay the guns that are too close to track/too far to hit aren't contributing anything. You're gimping your actual dps by ensuring that at any point only 1/2 of your guns are functioning as intended. This is one of the reasons minnie work out so well with being able to determine the range (at least with similarly sized ships), because they can fit for all AC/Artillery and not have to say (for instance) "Well, I can fit blasters and get kited, or fit fail guns and get flown under".

BTW, just in case you are confused by what I meant with the statement you quoted: I don't mean only turrets and no missiles (or vice versa, though I'd probably fit neuts+guns on a minnie boat instead of missiles anyways) I mean don't fit half AC and half Artillery thinking that you're "covering all the bases".

It's not like missiles have tracking/optimal range issues anyways.

Originally by: Jiao Governator
The Drone loadouts on the Minmatar ships seem fair, or at least the worst way to balance them...


Couldn't agree more. As others have mentioned, the drone bay is their only defense against some tactics.

Originally by: SpawnSupreme
...minmitar is the race that is second best at everything...


Second at everything is way better than first at one thing, third and fourth in the rest. Basically means they are the most versatile, which translates to best solo ships.

As Zarnak mentioned, though, they aren't actually second at everything, they're first in several regards. Speed, agility, tracking, alpha, close-range optimal/falloff combo...

Sure, other races have their niche, but for the pvper that wants to get out and fly with as many fleets as possible, and solo in between, minnie is so far ahead of the rest it's a joke.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna


Thanks for the clear demonstration you have no idea how to play.

The alpha is only useful when you are in a fleet large enough to one shot stuff,
Such as larger Minmatar ships popping smaller ships... Rolling Eyes Minmatar ships need 1/3rd the ships to alpha a target than an equivalent Gallente fleet.

Quote:
so basically large dedicated fleets that are extremely vulnerable to enemy gangs getting in close and raping them. Yes they have a strength, countered by a weakness. Maels have more alpha, 'pests are slightly better at Gtfo. Its called balance.
Calling bs on this. Not vulnerable at range when you can get off a shot and bail before the other guys can react.

Quote:

Yes, minmatar ships are designed to dictate range, because if they weren't then ACs would be completely useless and to a lesser degree arties. Trying to maintain the correct range to deal the maximum possible damage while receiving less yourself from the enemy is nearly impossible if they are a skilled pilot and completely impossible to maintain the GTFO ability while doing so.
lol

Quote:
Given our virtually universal lower EHP, it doesn't take long of losing our ideal range for us to go pop.
How will you lose range again? You're Minmatar. You're faster than any other race and you are quicker than Gallente and Amarr.

Quote:
But yes lets ignore that, lets ignore the mixed weapons resulting in lower overall dps, lets ignore the lack of dedicated mid or low slots on any ship to actually fit a decent tank and ANY form of e-war (shield tanks) or damage boost (armour tanks) or the fact if we DO fit an armour tank, almost universally the best for EHP, we lose the only advantage we had to dictate range....
If you were a smart Minnie pilot you wouldn't be losing range. Exactly who can tackle you and survive being nueted?

Quote:

Where are these extra highs btw?
Rifter 1, Rupture 2, Hurricane 2, Tempest 2.

Quote:
A couple of ships have extra highs, thats it.
Proven wrong already. What exactly do drones do for Minmatar that makes taking them away a huge nerf?


 

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