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Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:01:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 02/09/2011 13:03:31
Originally by: Ston Momaki
KITHRUS,
A couple words for you since playing with words seems to be what slave holders do.
Expand your vocabulary with these:
1. Excuses: What you are making for the continued practice of "slavery." There is no difference in the definition of slavery. What the Amarrians are doing is slavery plain and simple.
2. Reparations: What your society owes the slaves you should immediately emancipate. You have all the infrastructure you need to properly emancipate your slaves and see that they are able to matriculate into productive, free lives. You just don't want to because it would be expensive.

I will keep asking you to do what you do not want to do.

"Agitate, agitate, agitate" (Frederick Douglas)

Abolition now!


*Kithrus Bursts out laughing.*

Expensive is piloting and secondly the Amarr have made reparation to the Matari and frankly a fat lot of good its done them. Their little Elder Demon war was proof enough of that.

What happened again oh? The Matari syphened funds sent to them by the Amarr and Gallenteans so they could have their little republic and what did they do with it? After we tried to give them what they wanted was their home back instead they slapped a few titans together and stormed Sarum Prime in an attempt to free their brothers.

Enter stage right our returned Empress comes and flicks their so called fleet off the map like a gnat and at the end of the day you have nothing to show for it.

So don't tell me we haven't tried it your way. after that stunt you will do it our way and no matter how much you 'agitate' that mute switch is still right beside my favorite music selection from the Temples Brothers meditation choir.

Kalaratiri
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:22:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Kithrus

Enter stage right our returned Empress comes and flicks their so called fleet off the map like a gnat and at the end of the day you have nothing to show for it.



Not quite. For one thing, we did actually get quite a lot of slaves. And the 'so called fleet' made it to Sarum Prime without being even slightly threatened. Shows your security patrols in a wonderful light that does.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:37:00 - [123]
 

I want to thank you Kithrus. In order for true reform to take place within any culture, leaders need to combine diplomacy with introspective honesty. Finally, I have a response that reflects honest Amarrian anger. Ms. Goldcore seemed unable to express that and kept up the facade of teddy bear kindness and warm fuzzies. You, however, have made yourself clear about how you feel about the Minmatar. According to canonical estimates, a little less than 1/3 of all the Minmatar in the cluster are still held in slavery by the Amarr. Slavery is the issue of the day.

Slaves have a "persecution reality;" they are enslaved. Amarrians have a "persecution complex;" they think they are being picked on because slavery is being confronted. "We tried it your way..." I think not. You still hold millions of Minmatar slaves. Abolition means every last slave emancipated. That is the meaning and value of freedom.

Your last line is a beginning, because it exposes the true attitude of the Amarrian slaveholder including that of Ms. Goldcore if I had to guess at what lies deep. Underneath your claims of "how hard you have tried" is the truth that you have no intention of doing things any other way but your own way. You hope to be able to treat those you believe lessers as gnats to be swept off the map or kept under your thumb.

I would apologize for my provocations, but they were and are necessary to expose the true condition of the Amarr holders and their real attitudes. Kithrus, you have made your's clear.

May God redeem you from your slavery.

Abolition now

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:43:00 - [124]
 

Goldcore,

I extend a formal apology for assisting in transforming your earnest philosophical pursuit of the value and meaning of freedom to individuals into yet another heated argument about slavery.

Merdaneth,

Thank you for your answers regarding my inquiries. As I remain incredulous regarding the practice and implementation of slavery, I must pause and consider that I have an outsider's perspective.

Kithrus,

Your attempts to explain slavery and defend its implementation would have greater effect if they were backed with historically accurate and truthful information.

Now for the unpopular stance,

There are positive things that can be brought about by slavery, under the right circumstances, administered in the right way and directed in the right purpose.

There are negative things that can be brought about by slavery and it lends itself easily to abuse and mishandling.

Slavery is not a universal solution nor the only solution toward elevating and enlightening a greater mass of people, no matter the reasoning and justification behind it.

Immediate and absolute abolition will wreak havoc on the emancipated, the emancipator and the receptor of all the emancipated.

Slow and gradual abolition will require patience, understanding, compromise and cooperation.

Attempted enslavement of all people across the cluster will be met with hostility and resistance by the greater majority of people.

There are alternate ways to "cultivate the spirit of man," to enlighten and uplift, to educate and guide than through slavery.

All of the above statements are true. Twisting words, obscuring facts and manipulating emotions will accomplish naught but propagated hostilities on both sides of the argument.

In the end, we can do nothing but stand in truth.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:51:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari

Now I think you have not at all grasped the entirety of what has been said. The points are entirely relevant because they are the direct result of slavery as a concept being applied in reality. You can conceptualise all you want but the stark truth is in that small vial of Vitoxin.

Why not adress the point instead of trying to find a way around it. All justice systems in the cluster are based on the concept that someone is responisble for their actions, i.e. they chose to break the law. The justice system is based upon free will and a person being held accountable for their exercise of it, which means in essence, retribution for crimes committed.

If we are the product of circumstance and circumstance alone, then we are not guilty of our crimes, but the effect of other conditions. We cannot therefore be held responsible for crimes. This is the reality of applying the concept that free will does not exist.

My aim was to point out the hypocrisy of deriding free will yet subscribing to conventional concepts of justice.

And no, I'm not claiming the Republic has superior justice in any way, or that they adress the cause as well as the effect.

If you anticipated some ultra-nationalist rhetoric, you will have no such thing from me.


Huh... I actually have. You did not understand what I said. These points are relevant for that they can be cons of slavery, but they are not relevant in the discussion about the core concept. Everything has cons and flaws. If humans never applied something for the simple reason that thing can bring several indesired consequences, they would still be stuck in caves. This is where scales of greys come in consideration when it is about deciding if said flaws and cons are too severe to apply the thing in question or not. On this, you are right, and I never said that these considerations are irrelevant. But, in the original message, freedom was adressed first as a concept. This is what you do not grasp to my eyes.

Now then, you also confuse systematic flaws with unrelated flaws. Slavery does not imply vitoc, and does not imply generational slavery either. These are not consequences to slavery, but to rules and laxist laws.

I am not trying to find a way around much like I have never denied what flaws are related to the current amarrian slavery. I am merely being the most neutral possible with some detachement, which is not the case of a lot of people here.

Concerning the second part of your statement, I am afraid that you are mistaken if you think that I consider free will not to exist. If, of course, I understand correctly the meaning that you put under such a broad term. But to make it clear : absolute/pure freedom does not exist (yet ? another debate). Then, we come to scales of various degrees of freedom. Slavery is not the lower, but one of the lowest.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:12:00 - [126]
 

While I respect Mr. Khross' concerns, I dissagree with some particulars.

Emancipation should be immediate!
Matriculation should be gradual!

As long as slavery is allowed to continue; as long as the word gradual is used with regard to slavery, nothing will happen. Emancipation is the step of faith that seals the commitment to end slavery absolutely once and for all. Nothing less should be accepted. Matriculation is the commitment on the part of the emancipator to helping the former slave become a part of free society. MATRICULATION PREVENTS THE CHAOS EVERYONE IS SO WORRIED ABOUT.

Emancipation turns the slave into a matriculant.
Matriculation turns the matriculant into a citizen.

Slave becomes matriculant becomes citizen

Is the process neat and tidy? No. The injustice of slavery has continued for centuries. The processes of immediate emancipation and gradual matriculation are the logical and just courses when a society falls under the conviction that its actions have been wrong and need to be corrected. There will be great expenses involved and much hard work, but this should not create a fear that prevents immediate emancipation. This immediate abolition and emancipation is as much for the slave holder as it is for the slave.

So yes, Abolition now.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:39:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I want to thank you Kithrus. In order for true reform to take place within any culture, leaders need to combine diplomacy with introspective honesty. Finally, I have a response that reflects honest Amarrian anger. Ms. Goldcore seemed unable to express that and kept up the facade of teddy bear kindness and warm fuzzies. You, however, have made yourself clear about how you feel about the Minmatar. According to canonical estimates, a little less than 1/3 of all the Minmatar in the cluster are still held in slavery by the Amarr. Slavery is the issue of the day.

Slaves have a "persecution reality;" they are enslaved. Amarrians have a "persecution complex;" they think they are being picked on because slavery is being confronted. "We tried it your way..." I think not. You still hold millions of Minmatar slaves. Abolition means every last slave emancipated. That is the meaning and value of freedom.

Your last line is a beginning, because it exposes the true attitude of the Amarrian slaveholder including that of Ms. Goldcore if I had to guess at what lies deep. Underneath your claims of "how hard you have tried" is the truth that you have no intention of doing things any other way but your own way. You hope to be able to treat those you believe lessers as gnats to be swept off the map or kept under your thumb.

I would apologize for my provocations, but they were and are necessary to expose the true condition of the Amarr holders and their real attitudes. Kithrus, you have made your's clear.

May God redeem you from your slavery.

Abolition now


Here is the sad part, at best you made me laugh at worst all you did was annoy me. My stance hasn't changed. There is not mask no falsehood, no cloak and dagger master mind plan.

I know you believe that I have some hidden feelings on slavery but I don't. At best you can argue that I was raised so well I believe it works and don't think I'm doing wrong. At best mind you because the fact of the matter is I do not believe I am doing anything thing wrong and I do believe it works.

Maria was my first and best student and I have little not no regreats on how I raised her and saves her from her family.

Now I grant you that maybe sure some Amarr may have a persecution complex of some kind. They however do not live at home in Amarr space and small surprise those around them don't agree with Amarrian lifestyles.

So if you want clarity go talk to Maria Crases.


Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 16:17:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki

As long as slavery is allowed to continue; as long as the word gradual is used with regard to slavery, nothing will happen.


I'm confused. Are you asking me to stop releasing any slaves until every slave in existence is to be released at once?

Also, you seem to mistaken again about the use of the word injustice. Justice concerns laws. As long as laws and procedures have been obeyed, there can be no injustice.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.02 16:24:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Ston Momaki

As long as slavery is allowed to continue; as long as the word gradual is used with regard to slavery, nothing will happen.


I'm confused. Are you asking me to stop releasing any slaves until every slave in existence is to be released at once?

Also, you seem to mistaken again about the use of the word injustice. Justice concerns laws. As long as laws and procedures have been obeyed, there can be no injustice.


I decided to look up injustice.

Injustice- n. Lack of fairness or justice.

Justice- n. Just behavior or treatment.

Just- adj. Based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

It isn't just about laws, it's more about morality by definition.


Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:14:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente

I decided to look up injustice.


Likely a commoner's dictionary. Or even worse: a Gallentean commoner's dictionary.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:18:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Jason Galente

I decided to look up injustice.


Likely a commoner's dictionary. Or even worse: a Gallentean commoner's dictionary.


More racism and irrelevance on a theological debate. Great, that's just what we needed..

And yes, it's the People's Dictionary of Gallente Prime, created by the people, for the people. You say commoner like it's a bad thing. They are far better people than us.


Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:41:00 - [132]
 

The Value of Freedom...that is the name of this thread.
Bear with me while I tell a story. This story comes from ancient historical and religious legend. It goes like this...

There was a man named John Newton. He was a vile and perverse man, though he began his depravity even before becoming a full man. At age eleven he began working aboard trade vessels where his reputation for undisciplined and profane behavior grew. From there he went on to serve aboard military vessels but was so very unruly that he ended up out of the military and working in the slave trade. This he took to since it fit his temperment. Along the way and through the course of fear and trial, he came to believe in God. At first this belief in God did not change his involvement in the slave trade. But, over time, the spirit of God began to change his heart and he saw, in his own words; "I was once an active instrument in a business at which my heart now shudders."

As part of this journey, he met man by the name of William Wilberforce. They forged a deep friendship, one which helped Wilberforce become a political force of abolition among his people and Newton to become a great spiritual force among his people. Both Wilberforce and Newton lived to see the slave trade outlawed in their culture. What is remarkable is that the theism of Newton was not static. At first his belief in God did not impact his view of slavery; that came later. I make remark to this because of the strange position that many Amarrian slave holders take that somehow their theism is static with regard to slavery; that there can be no sudden about face. Newton did not have to reject his faith in God to reject slavery. On the contrary, the growth of his faith in God led him to reject slavery. But with this came humility. He came to know God not as the stern faced visage often reflected in Amarrian portraits but ultimately as a God most characterized by grace.

The Slave trader turned abolitionist wrote some very beautiful poetry that I wish to share with you my human Amarrian brothers.

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind, but now I see


Doesn't your religion allow you to admit that perhaps with regard to slavery, you too are blind. Perhaps the hope is that the Amarrian God may be discovered to be that God of grace afterall whose power turns slave holders and slave traders into abolitionists. I do believe John Newton discovered the value of freedom on many levels.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:50:00 - [133]
 

I believe I am going to petition the Disciples of Ston to release everything they've found so we can see all of this "Terran" lore and legend you have discovered. You are quoting information that no one has had access to for tens of thousands of years, most of it is shrouded in mystery, myth and legend and yet you quote them with names and references to places that we don't even know existed.

While I take no real issue with your overall message, I am most eager to see the information from which you consistently quote so as to see the credibility of your pathos.

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 19:28:00 - [134]
 

You will note that in all these references, I always mention "legend." I do believe I am within set bounds to do this as long as the issue of "legend" is acknowledged. The Pandora's box of the Terran connection is open. I only wish to take advantage of the wealth of these legends. I never refer to these stories as canon. They serve the purpose of illustration and illumination only. Peace.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:29:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
How dare I? How dare I question the moral integrity of your position?

You don't question. You try to dictate that my position isn't morally integer. Without even taking time to try to understand it.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Such indignity you must feel that I would try to make you feel bad about something bad you are doing and about something bad you believe.

Uh, you claim again and again I'm doing something bad. You've given no reasons to believe it. Thus, I feel free to dismiss your claim out of hand.


Originally by: Ston Momaki
If you are so right about slavery, why so offended that your practice is being questioned? Dost thou protest to much?

I'd not protest if you'd be questioning instead of simply pushing your mindless agenda. I protest exactly because you're not questioning.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Sorry for the sarcasm, but come on, Ms. Mithra, be serious. I am not the one playing with words and definitions here.

You're not? Well, if you aren't than because you've already settled in comfortably on your fact-removed dogma.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I would like to see just one Amarrian slave holder admit the truth of why you have slaves; for your greedy self interest. I would like to hear one Amarrian admit that they don't give a toss about God but gladly use their so-called faithful religion as a way not only to subjugate other humans but to subjugate their own minds to moral pusillanimity.

I guess you'd want to talk to Blood Raiders instead. They are the ones that are into that.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Abolition now!

It gets old, quick, you know. It was before you started it.

Fact is, just because you define something to be evil, it doesn't make it so. Similarly, just because something isn't nice, it doesn't make it not good.

And even if it is - if it is because taking freedom from people, then so is imprisonment. If it is for other reasons, it doesn't impact the question of the value of freedom put up here.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.03 00:45:00 - [136]
 

My thoughts exactly Nicoletta Mithra. So far the only reason I have for my slavery for being bad is 'because I said so.' Unless your God or the Empress that doesn't hold much sway over me at all.

I have stated all the reasons I believe in the practice as a valuable tool. As far as I can tell most of my points grounded in faith have been simply ignored, as well as most of my reasoning.

As I have stated in may different ways, many different times, you are asking me to do something you yourself simply flat-out refuse to do. I have heard your paper thin arguments for my entire life and they still make no more sense from your lips than the last guy.

The slaves of the empire deserve so much better than shallow and misguided path you prescribe. You know absolutely nothing of the Empire and its people, of which I count my slaves. Things wont be suddenly better if I pay them.

Every attempt I have made to explain this is met with 'abolition now' or other nonsensical one liners. Furthermore, words are slandered and twisted beyond recognition to meet your thinly hidden needs. It may earn you credence with others like you, but it means nothing to someone with a strong will or strong faith.

If you truly want to debate this topic, perhaps try to understand me first. Perhaps then you can bring something new to the table. Otherwise I'm convinced the only reason you pester me and other holders is for your own self gratification.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.03 01:05:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Ston Momaki on 03/09/2011 01:34:56
Ms. Mithra,
I believe that I am correct when I say that you are proud and supercilious, with a great sense of tradition and ancestry.
I am also correct to say that most outside of your tradition consider you to be arrogant and tyrannical.
Given that these are "canonical facts" about you if, indeed you are a true Amarrian, it is also true that your Empire's defeat at the hands of the mysterious Jovians, and the Minmatar uprising that followed, left an indelible mark on your Amarrian culture. This double failure, a turning point in your history, has shaped your entire generation of policy and philosophy. Wouldn't you say that these are the facts concerning you if you are a true Amarrian? If you answer "no" then I believe that you are in a curious sort of self-denial.

Some of our readers may not know what supercilious means, so lets tell them, Ms. Mithra. It means, behaving or looking as though one thinks one is superior to others; patronizingly haughty. You may wish to deny these facts, but there is incontrovertible evidence that is practically written upon you with indelible ink, so to speak. If fact, I would say that no matter how hard you try, you cannot change this very description of yourself. In a sense, it is there for all to "read" as long as you are a true Amarrian.

From this I draw a couple of preliminary conclusions and observations. Even if all the cluster were to agree in unified action that slavery is a morally reprehensible institution and practice, the supercilious Amarrian would cry "foul" and "you have no evidence." Why, because you view yourself as superior. Your patronizingly haughty nature refuses to accept the unified testimony of many others just as Godly as you that your actions are immoral. Can you change your stripes? Only God knows. We do know that humility must overcome your supercilious nature for this to happen.

You use an ancient language (Θεός Σωτήρ Ψυχή) to indicate that you value GOD as SAVIOR of the SOUL. Could it not also be true that God might save you also from your supercilious nature and free you to VALUE THE FREEDOM OF EVEN YOUR SLAVES?

Edit: For you Ms. Goldcore. Since as a Khanid, you are "in the fold" so to speak, then most of what I have said about Mithra applies to you. I would add that as a Khanid, you take things a bit further, being enamored by the reclaiming and even citing your favorite text I presume. Perhaps you wish to comment on your leaders attitude as evident in the following canonical statement, " the kingdom takes slavery even further than the empire. The Amarr Empire uses almost exclusively Minmatar and Ealur slaves, but the kingdom, denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them. Khanid himself has a Gallentean....as his personal slave, something he finds highly amusing..." You believe this: "So the Lord sent forth the Chosen, to bring forth the light of faith. And those who embrace his love shall be saved by his grace. For we are his shepherds in the darkness; His Angels of Mercy. But those who turn away from his light, And reject his true word shall be struck down by his wrath. For we are his retribution incarnate; His Angels of Vengeance Book of Reclaiming 4:45 Parts of this I believe also, but I do not believe that you are His only chosen, not that you are His Shepherd and that slavery is God's approved tool. You are no Angel of mercy and neither is your "amused" leader Khanid. Neither are you God's retribution, even though your supercilious nature prevents you from thinking otherwise. Finally, only the patronizingly haughty would believe themselves to be the very retribution of God incarnate.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:06:00 - [138]
 

From a outsiders point of view this thread looks something like this...

I pose a question with attempt to keep it non-confrontational.
Intelligent discourse. with some very important points
Personal admissions and answers to discourse.
FREEDOM NOW!
I note its off topic.
YOUR A MONSTER!!
I note its off topic again.
YOU HAVE A MESSIAH COMPLEX AND KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN!!
Why not just have a drink at my bar and disc-...
ABOLITION NOW!!!!

I feel cheated from what could have been so much more. Even when we began to flounder I have tried to be nothing less than direct and answer questions in a meaningful way. Me and those who are like minded have done a fair job within reason of being human. I have tried to do nothing less than state my opinions on such matters in as clear of a mater as I can (but I'm a scientist not an speech writer), even as far as listing a few times my beliefs. But now I am treated with superb generalizations about an nation I do not claim to have any connection with...

It would be very nice if someone could spend time listening instead of yelling. I tried to listen the cause of 'freedom' but heard only white noise and pointless yelling with no meaningful content... and was told I was the devil.

My offer still stands to enjoy a few glasses of my family's famous spiced wine and perhaps we can try again.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:52:00 - [139]
 

Ms. Goldcore,
Who called you a monster? Who called you a Devil? Who is yelling? I am quite quiet when I write, actually.
Now please be truthful. When you entered training as a capsuleer you specifically chose to be identified as a Khanid and with the Khanid kingdom. Part of that choice was an awareness that your chosen identity would be made plain to everyone. It was you who provided this information. Didn't you know that? You decided to identify yourself as an Amarrian Khanid. I didn't make that choice and bringing it up is germane to the topic. You are a Khanid of the Amarrian fold asking about the value of freedom. Everything about you is relevant to your question including your belief in slavery. Why should you be offended and feel that anyone has been unfair or off topic when they draw in what you have chosen as your identity? Just because identifying statements are made that you have agreed to in the past but now make you uncomfortable, does not mean that anyone is yelling. At the beginning of this discussion, you admitted that your view "may be inflammatory" but you still wanted to dig into the meat of the matter. (read your first post.) Have you lost your desire to dig now that other views also feel inflammatory? Your stated goal was to seek understanding and empathy. Empathy means literally to "suffer as if within another." Have you now lost that desire? No one has been unfair to you, Ms Goldcore. You set the parameters of the discussion by identifying yourself clearly and stating the goals. Have you changed your mind. Do you wish to withdraw your quest?

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:07:00 - [140]
 

I chose to be Khanid? I was BORN khanid if thats what you are refering to... However I have no choice in the matter. Or did I miss a step while I was in my mothers womb?

My family has always remained with the Empire where I grew up on Hayumtom at my family's plantation. My family has always distanced itself from the Dark Amarr and always been unionists.

I grew up with slaves and I remember when my parents granted me my first slave. He was young, only about 10 years older than I (me being 4 at the time). He was the son of the family whos task was to take care of me while I was an infant. I owe him my life many times over before I became a capsuleer. Now, 20 years later, the boy now still serves me and is one of my most trusted advisers and servants.

You have yelled repeatedly ABOLITION NOW!... repeating it multiple times in a single post on a number of occasions.

While not directly stating I was a monster it has been implied many times.

And again, I did not start the debate on slavery and had originally attempted to steer it back to the main topic at hand. I will admit I have since become defensive, but I haven't heard a meaningful reply to my 'quest' for a while now. I did not start this debate, nor intend to have it at all... When rafting a river you have no choice but to turn were the river turns.

Qansh
Gallente
Triskelion Ouroboros
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:26:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
So I ask you for your thoughts on the value of freedom...

Freedom means the ability to move to any point. That also means having the ability to move to any point that you are stuck on. In other words, freedom means having the inner grace to accept the things that you cannot change. This inner grace is also that which allows you to open up to larger horizons of freedom. You see?

Freedom is a wonderfully slippery thing that defies any opportunity to pin it down, as befits its meaning. That's also why politicians love to get their dirty little hands on it.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:29:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Qansh
Freedom means the ability to move to any point. That also means having the ability to move to any point that you are stuck on. In other words, freedom means having the inner grace to accept the things that you cannot change. This inner grace is also that which allows you to open up to larger horizons of freedom. You see?

Freedom is a wonderfully slippery thing that defies any opportunity to pin it down, as befits its meaning. That's also why politicians love to get their dirty little hands on it.


Something new! And I appreciate your time.

Anyway, why is this valuable though? Do you feel its necessarily to be happy or complete as a person? Or is it an accessory to those ends?

Please share more.

Qansh
Gallente
Triskelion Ouroboros
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:42:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
Originally by: Qansh
Anyway, why is this valuable though? Do you feel its necessarily to be happy or complete as a person? Or is it an accessory to those ends?

Please share more.

Hmm, well, I'd have to say ultimately that we are Freedom, that we are ultimately free even while being unconscious actors in our own play. So, its not about freedom being an accessory in that sense. But I do believe that freedom in its more political sense advances as we advance and that it can be a matter of calculation. What goes on, I think, or must, is that there is an actual case of deserving freedom. There must always in some sense be a teacher, for we are children. Freedom willy-nilly without inner advancement is a snare and has value only if it leads to inner advancement, which in some cases it can.

That's how I'd look at it, I suppose.

P.S. Glad to offer something new. I sensed a log-jam. Smile

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.03 10:40:00 - [144]
 

Goldcore,

I have stated the outer principle of this before in this thread, but I will expound further if it will assist in the discussion.

I have stated previously that the value of freedom is relative to the individual.

I will add:

That is simply because freedom is experienced on a personal level, to a variety of degrees by the individual. Regardless of station in life, regardless of talent or merit, there are things in each life that we can cherish or revile. The places we visit often touch is more than we touch them. The people we interact with often affect us deeper than we think at first recalling.

The things we take away from each day define our experiences and these experiences define our understanding of the freedom(s) we possess and subsequently its value.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.03 13:35:00 - [145]
 

Part of me is quite sorry for the pain that this discourse has involved for you Ms. Goldcore. I hold no ill will towards you. On the contrary, the moment I saw that you wished to experience "empathy" in your quest to understand freedom, I knew that you wanted to grasp it with more than just your intellect. You wanted to be "in the suffering of the pursuit of freedom." That is what empathy means.

Perhaps you are beginning to feel empathy now without even realizing it. Perhaps an empathy for freedom will come to you before an intellectual grasping of it. I have built verbal walls around you, Ms. Goldcore and you have sought the door. As those walls have been built ever closer to include your ethnicity, religion, etc, your seeking the door out has become more intense. You push against me because I try to box you in. I create a stereotype, you struggle to be free from it. I generalize about the Khanid, you separate yourself from that generalization. At every turn, you have struggled for freedom.

Your actions show that you value freedom. You have most sharply felt it and expressed that feeling with sincere emotion. Now, as a scientist you must define it. You value freedom. You value freedom, because when someone tries to limit it even verbally, you push back hard. You are a freedom loving person, Ms. Goldcore. Now, find the vocabulary to express it; to express your empathy for freedom. Change your language from an expression of frustration with me to a description of your own pursuit of freedom. Do the science, so to speak.

I do believe that the issue of slavery was part of your original question because you referenced "toiling their entire lives to bring freedom to a perfectly happy people." I am an abolitionist, you are a slave holder; I doubt we will change each other's stripes at not immediately. However, do not be to angry with me for helping you feel empathy for the struggle to be free. This is what you wanted to experience.

The Disciples of Ston hope that your empathy for freedom will grow every wider, higher, longer, and deeper.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.04 05:51:00 - [146]
 

Mr. Momaki,

Let me say in advance, that I'm sorry if I can't really stay serious while responding, but your post is just so hilariously off reality, that it's really hard for me to do so.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I believe that I am correct when I say that you are proud and supercilious, with a great sense of tradition and ancestry.

Proud? Yes. Great sense of tradition and ancestry? Yes! Supercilious? That's the first time I hear that! Actually, I just recently have been called 'nice'! I don't see how that fits. And if you'd know a little of my ancestry, ah, well...

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I am also correct to say that most outside of your tradition consider you to be arrogant and tyrannical.

So fast at stopping to be careful? So fast to claim you're correct? I was called 'nice' by a Matari! Yes, I have to admit, I'm sometimes arrogant. But tyrannical? I've never heard that.

And honestly, you don't know me a bit, how can you be so sure about my character?

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Given that these are "canonical facts" about you (...)

Now here you really gave me a hearty laugh! It seems you looked up in some database - maybe the Gallentean backpackers guide to the Empire or the DED database - who the Amarr are. Quite naturally, you will read there some stereotypes and generalizations. But it's about the true Amarr in general, not me individually. It's hilarious and sad simultaneously how you seemingly are unable to see the difference!

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Some of our readers may not know what supercilious means, ...

Now, let me do you a favor and allow me to explain you who you are, now that we've established that we all are stereotypes:
You are, being Achura, of course "something of a mystery". In fact, you are "reclusive and introverted" (so you better stop making such a show about abolition here!). Anyway, you have "little interest in the ephemeral phenomena of the material world", like slavery. Instead, as one of those Achura who only recently took to the stars you're "driven in large part by a desire to unlock the secrets of the universe."

So, please, do me a favor, do as a good Achuran does and stop to be extroverted! Just stop to worry about the ephemeral phenomenon of slavery! Or, aren't you in fact not an Achura after all? Off to unlocking the secrets!

Originally by: Ston Momaki
From this I draw a couple of preliminary conclusions and observations. ...

I hope you realize by now how deeply wrong this approach of yours is?

Originally by: Ston Momaki
You use an ancient language (Θεός Σωτήρ Ψυχή) to indicate that you value GOD as SAVIOR of the SOUL.

That I do! I mean it.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Could it not also be true that God might save you also from your supercilious nature and free you to VALUE THE FREEDOM OF EVEN YOUR SLAVES?

It could be. I do value what little freedom my slaves have, honestly. In most cases more so than they do, apparently, because most of them decided to misuse their freedom and thus, their freedom was curbed.
Does that mean that I will liberate them on the spot? Most certainly not. They will be released if and only if they've learned to use that liberty they'd get with responsibility - for themselves and others. I do my very best to get them there.

So, I hope I can welcome you back from your little excursion into the fairy land of generalizations, bias and preconceptions?

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.04 09:14:00 - [147]
 

I just realized I have been trying to debate with someone who has absolutely no interest in me, my culture, or my servants. Not only have you completely misread my intentions Ston, but your ability to completely miss the point is... quite honestly... amazing. My most trusted servant and chief adviser is at a complete loss. I think said something that's akin to... well... it doesn't belong in a place like this.

Believe it or not I do care for my servants. From the very bottom of my heart I truly do. Any bit of wisdom which can improve our relationship is valuable to me. However this whole notion that suddenly paying them will transform them is just absurd. I have covered my reasons why I believe this in great detail, none of which addressed at all by people who continue to debate with me, so I wont repeat myself again.

So, I'm going to simply say it strait... Either contribute in a productive way to the matter at hand or stop wasting everyone's time turning this thread into something it shouldn't be.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.04 10:47:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
I just realized I have been trying to debate with someone who has absolutely no interest in me, my culture, or my servants. Not only have you completely misread my intentions Ston, but your ability to completely miss the point is... quite honestly... amazing. My most trusted servant and chief adviser is at a complete loss. I think said something that's akin to... well... it doesn't belong in a place like this.


I sympathize. It seemed an initially fairly open question and debate, and it saddens me to see it degenerate into non-constructive accusations. To me those who oppose slavery *want* those who have slaves to be monsters so that they can yell at the and condemn them with righteous indignation.

A reasoned response forces many to think about why they are really opposing slavery and slavers, and to some of them that is an uncomfortable question they find hard to answer. 'Because slavery is evil' was often the wast and comforting answer, and surrounded by others parroting the same phrase, it is easy to start believing that. I expect abolitionists to think a little bit harder and deeper than that if they want to change anything.


Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.04 13:25:00 - [149]
 

Ms. Goldcore,
You haven't addressed the issues in my last post. (I'm whispering, not shouting.)

One of the greatest values that the Disciples of Ston have encountered in this cluster is the value of freedom. Part of freedom is the power or control over one's own destiny. Our methods of provocation are designed to challenge that and then observe how much that value is treasured. In the past, we used petty theft to do this. We have since abandoned that method. We use other means now. (still whispering) The means I have used in this thread has demonstrated that you and your supporters value freedom and feel deep empathy in the struggle for freedom.

Please do not make me a straw man so that you end up missing what you set out to gain at the beginning of this thread. In spite of what you are saying to me, I have helped you find what you are looking for, empathy. You stated that you already have an intellectual understanding. Why do you want this thread to focus on what you say you already have? (still whispering) If I have irritated you, it has only served to show you your own empathy for freedom.

I sense great fear in you (this is not an insult or criticism). Please do not be afraid to let your empathy for the struggle of freedom move you, change you, revolutionize you. You took a risk when you opened this thread and specifically indicated that you wanted to feel empathy. That statement was an invitation to people like me to use methods to coax that empathy from you.

Confrontation almost always makes humans fight for their freedoms, whatever those freedoms may be perceived as. In that fight, you show your empathy for the struggle to be and remain free. (still whispering)

These words are spoken with the utmost spirit of kindness by someone who wants you to gain what you set out to gain at the beginning of your quest.

Ston

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.04 16:09:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 04/09/2011 16:09:49
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Ms. Goldcore,

I sense great fear in you (this is not an insult or criticism). Please do not be afraid to let your empathy for the struggle of freedom move you, change you, revolutionize you. You took a risk when you opened this thread and specifically indicated that you wanted to feel empathy. That statement was an invitation to people like me to use methods to coax that empathy from you.



See this right here is why this conversation is going no where. You keep projecting emotions onto us. You accused me of being unfeeling or diabolical in my intent, because Lady Goldcore started to open up you pushed an image of empathy on her so you can jam your foot in the door like she was coming over to your side.

Instead of address the core of the issue such as the scriptures that move us to act thus and our desire to help people as instructed in them your assuming right off the bat we are either selfish or having some awakening to your way of thinking.


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