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Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:18:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 01/09/2011 15:19:47
Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Penal slavery and generational slavery nay be the same thing, that be the truth o' it.

Penal slavery does nay deny an understanding or appreciation o' freedom, it emphasizes it. When ye have yer freedoms taken from ye, ye learn to appreciate and cherish 'em that much more. Ergo, upon regaining your freedoms, ye will likely nay forfeit them again. That be the point o' penal slavery, after all.

Generational slavery, on the other hand, does nay reinforce an appreciation for freedom 'cause the enslaved ne'er experience it. In order to appreciate freedom, ye have to experience it at some point. Otherwise it be just an ideal or concept, ne'er a true understanding or appreciation.

Good on ye for understanding that enough to handle slavery the way ye do, Mithra. I do nay fully understand yer practice o' slavery, but I be givin' ye the benefit o' doubt based on yer words.

For the record, me issue with slavery extends only to those thinkin' it be the only way to "enlighten" people and usin' religion, culture, science or whate'er else to justify the mass and/or generational enslavement o' people.

Slavery nay be the only way to bring people to yer god, nor to educate them, nor to enlighten them. If ye deny the simplistic truth o' that statement, then yer interest nay be in enlightening, it be in enslaving.


Every time I talk to anyone about slavery I can always see it in their eyes that the romanticism freedom. Imagines of children playing in the grassy meadow, dad walking over the hill tired but happy to see his family and a wife maybe with child standing in the doorway of the house rubbing her tummy thoughtfully.

Despite all this wonderful mental pictures no one ever goes to thoughts of what mom, dad and the kids were doing all day before this or after this touching moment.

The kids were in school or doing chores, mom was keeping the house and Dad was working.

Life is labor whether you like it or not.

Now before I hear the cry's or 'but hes working for himself and his family not you'...

Last time I checked his employer is getting something out of him. The people he pays his bills to is still getting something out of him. I merely have removed the middle man from the equation. I take care of the families needs and teach them about scripture. They work for me in exchange and when their education is complete they move up in rank and life goes on.

my system is just different then yours the key difference in systems being is Amarr doesn't have a poor peoples caste.Your either a slave but well taken care of or a freeman working your way up in the world. No one is needy no one is hungry. More importantly thanks to tradition and hard work everyone man women and child knows what their place is and what God expects of him or her.

that my friends is called Stability.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:35:00 - [92]
 

Do your slaves have their own homes?
Do they have their own families?
Are they able to choose their jobs and careers?
Do they get something besides "equality" out of it?
Is there a sense of accomplishing something?
Do they have the chance to pursue a career or life they enjoy rather than one dictated for them?
Are their kids born to be raised by their parents, as their parents see fit, or are they born to be raised by their parents' Holders?
Are your slaves free to maintain their own traditions, culture and practices?
Can your slaves quit to pursue a different life path or career choice?
Did your slaves choose to work for you?
How many generations does a slave's family and relatives have to spend in slavery before they're free to be a family apart from your "guidance" and "direction?"
Does a slave own anything apart from what you give them? (Or grant them permission to have?)

These are all freedoms common to your "working man" but not common to "slaves." Levels of "freedom" afforded to them. Freedoms that are not universally shared by slaves.

What you call 'stability,' I call 'slavery.'

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:35:00 - [93]
 

I am perfectly aware of that, Ms Mithra, and I thank you for your answer, but denying that generational slavery has anything to do with freedom and slavery itself - for which I agree with, they are two separate issues - does not imply that Mr Momaki statement that generational slavery is wrong, is false. At the contrary it would seem, as you seem to be against generational slavery yourself.

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Edited by: N''maro Makari on 01/09/2011 14:04:56
Theres more filler in some of these posts than food from a Jita fast-food joint.

Lets dispel the first measurement of compltete nonsense:

Vitoc is still widely used in the Empire as a means of controlling slaves. Or do you think the Elder Fleet used thousands of tonnes of Insorum just for the hell of it?

Second, you may turn your noses up at Vitoc, and many capsuleer Amarrians do, but that does not get you out of the issue. You are but a few thousand among billions of Slave Holding corporations and families. Your apprehensiveness does not absolve you or proof your argument from the Vitoc point.

Third, right to the meat of the issue, I see many "philosophical" Amarrians come here and refer to the word freedom as if it were just a passing fancy for the less enlightened. But then surely you must abhor your own Justice system? As so many of you have expressed a passion for it. Slavery as punishment for crimes. But if we do not have free will, how do you hold people accountable for their crimes? Rarely do I hear of scentences in the Empire involving the roots of the crime. When Articio Kor-Azor was dismembered piece by piece, did the Speaker of Truth deign to punish the Kor-Azor family for allowing him to develop into such a brat? And with Karsoth, was he held accountable or those who enabled him? You dismiss freedom but enthuse retribution?

Justice requires free will.

Think about that before you dismiss it so readily.

*edit: Typo


1) Vitoc is a tool for slavery. The same way generational slavery is a non obligatory consequence of slavery, vitoc is a non obligatory tool for slavery. The issue at hand here was slavery and freedom. As I answered above to Templar Mithra, we can definitly mention them and how they are to be considered wrong or right, but they do not impact on the very core of slavery itself : the concept.

2) Same, you can, again, be in favor of slavery while being totally opposed to vitoc techniques or TCMCs. Or generational slavery. These are merely branches of the concept, not its roots.

3) I can not speak for other "philosophical Amarrians" as you say, though I consider the Amarrian justice system as flawed as all the other ones currently in existence. By the way, your "third" statement is again a matter of pots calling kettles black.

Also, why would the Speaker of Truths or even the MIO, the Civic Court or the TC punish the family of a criminal ? Is it the case in the Republic ? You punish all the parents of a criminal for what he has done ? I do not think so. Sometimes it is discussed though, in serious cases. And in the Empire, it is probably the place where it is the most systematic : entire families punished to slavery because one of them was a criminal or violated the law are countless.

I can not speak for the people that enabled Karsoth. Maybe they were sued in justice, maybe not. Were the people that enabled admiral Avent Ethurier or Noir punished for their lack of insight too ? And by enthusing retribution, pots and kettles again. Who striked directly on Amarrian core worlds with their illegal fleet 3 years ago ? Who burnt Ethurier alive in public ? Who invaded Caldari Prime again ? Was it not retribution ?

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:01:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Anabella Rella on 01/09/2011 16:01:43
Originally by: Kithrus

...my system is just different then yours the key difference in systems being is Amarr doesn't have a poor peoples caste.Your either a slave but well taken care of or a freeman working your way up in the world. No one is needy no one is hungry. More importantly thanks to tradition and hard work everyone man women and child knows what their place is and what God expects of him or her.

that my friends is called Stability.


The Empire is a utopia where no one's poor, no one's hungry, all are educated and all are able to live up to their full human potential?

Wow, someone better let Sansha know so he can call off his war! Unity and utopia have already been achieved!

That, my friends, is called a delusion. I understand there are medical treatments for this condition.

Half Cocked Jack
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:24:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Edited by: Anabella Rella on 01/09/2011 16:01:43
Originally by: Kithrus

...my system is just different then yours the key difference in systems being is Amarr doesn't have a poor peoples caste.Your either a slave but well taken care of or a freeman working your way up in the world. No one is needy no one is hungry. More importantly thanks to tradition and hard work everyone man women and child knows what their place is and what God expects of him or her.

that my friends is called Stability.


The Empire is a utopia where no one's poor, no one's hungry, all are educated and all are able to live up to their full human potential?

Wow, someone better let Sansha know so he can call off his war! Unity and utopia have already been achieved!

That, my friends, is called a delusion. I understand there are medical treatments for this condition.



I must echo my compatriot in calling BS here, Kithrus. You--and nearly every other pro-slavery element in this conversation--are trying to present the institution of slavery in its purest form absent any flaws and abuses. Simultaneously, you are highlighting those very same flaws and abuses that become possible in systems lacking the institutionalization of hereditary tyrrany.

This conversation is not and never will be worth having until all parties are willing to sit at the table with honesty and integrity. All I will say is that I once labored in slavery. Besides the knowledge and experience I accumulated therein, I have nothing to show for it besides scars.

Now I labor in freedom from slavery. So to me, the quantifiable value of freedom that was originally asked for is billions of isk, access to most of the information in the galaxy, and a business empire.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:04:00 - [96]
 

Templar Farel, the issue with Mr. Momaki is, that he claimed that from generational slavery being wrong follows that slavery in general is wrong.
Which is simply not true.

And while I'd agree that generational slavery is 'wrong' I don't see the impact on the argument in regard to the value of freedom.

His statement is in the context of this discussion about the value of freedom quite misplaced and shows merely his will to push his agenda, something I simply don't agree with. He already opened a topic to do that, so he should it it there.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:40:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Do your slaves have their own homes?


Yes, of course.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Do they have their own families?


Yes, of course.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Are they able to choose their jobs and careers?


Yes, of course.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Do they get something besides "equality" out of it?


Out of what?

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Is there a sense of accomplishing something?


I find that building a house or taking in the harvest after a season's of hard word gives quite an extraordinary sense of accomplishment.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Do they have the chance to pursue a career or life they enjoy rather than one dictated for them?


Yes of course.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Are their kids born to be raised by their parents, as their parents see fit, or are they born to be raised by their parents' Holders?


That depends. The kids are raised by the community. There is no ownership and absolutely dominion of parents of their kids. Unlike some other cultures in which parent have almost complete control over their kids.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Can your slaves quit to pursue a different life path or career choice?


Yes, of course.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
How many generations does a slave's family and relatives have to spend in slavery before they're free to be a family apart from your "guidance" and "direction?"


That is unknown. How many generations does a family have to toil before one of them becomes president? It is unknown. There are no such guarantees in life.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Does a slave own anything apart from what you give them? (Or grant them permission to have?)


Ownership of other things as ultimate expression of freedom. Quite curious that being able to own other things (people, things or animals) is a freedom? Really?

You seem to have a odd view of slavery. One seemingly based on an overactive imagination.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:56:00 - [98]
 

All I did was ask questions, Captain Merdaneth. Questions ye have answered.

Though, I admit some surprise and suspicion regarding some o' yer answers. How does one quit being a slave and pursue a different career without being released by yer Holder?

Also, I did nay say that possession o' somethin' was the ultimate expression o' freedom, I simply stated that havin' the freedom to own possessions (inanimate objects, not persons) be a freedom that most "working people" enjoy.

Please do nay twist me words to try and make yer point, I were nay twisting yers.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 19:14:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Though, I admit some surprise and suspicion regarding some o' yer answers. How does one quit being a slave and pursue a different career without being released by yer Holder?


Being a slave is not a career path, just like being an adult is not a career path. It is a legal descriptor. Slaves that perform well are awarded with more responsibility, slaves that show certain aptitudes are given specific jobs. One pursues a different career simply by showing skill and excelling at some thing. I certainly not restricting my slaves to scraping rust from the hull when the have the potential to become a skilled engineer. Of course, slaves can't choose to become X, but so can't common citizens. If a common citizen is awful at math, he'll never become an engineer, no matter how fervently he pursues that career.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Also, I did nay say that possession o' somethin' was the ultimate expression o' freedom, I simply stated that havin' the freedom to own possessions (inanimate objects, not persons) be a freedom that most "working people" enjoy.


I agree there is some lingering influence from our primitive predispositions that causes some people to hoard material things our claim ownership over others as a means to happiness. I personally find spiritual growth more important. It is not what we hold in our hands, but in our hearts that is important a saint once said. Don't you agree?

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 19:28:00 - [100]
 

my answers to your questions are simular to Merdaneth. Considering my entire workforce is almost all slaves, I require more specialized and educated positions. Maintaining an Amarrian antimatter reactor isn't something you let some vitoc slave with no training do! Although their education is rather spechalized, I do attempt to play to the strengths of my slaves to the limitations of available jobs... This is absolutely no different in the republic or the federation. You simply cannot be what no one needs.

They key difference is their is only equality between my educated laser frequency modulator and the guy doing the grunt labor replacing the crystals live the same life style.

I do regularly free my slaves whom have shown a great fortitude of faith, as I noted in my post 'my promise to my slaves' about a year ago. Almost all of them decide to stay on with me. This has always been the tradition in my family. Most of my slave keepers are, by blood, Minmatar, but by faith and traditions, completely Amarrian.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:03:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
Maintaining an Amarrian antimatter reactor isn't something you let some vitoc slave with no training do!

With the Vitoc method, slaves are injected with a toxic chemical substance that is fatal unless the recipient receives a constant supply of an antidote. The method first appeared a few centuries ago when the Amarrians started manning some of their space ships with slaves. As space crew the slaves had to be cajoled into doing complex, often independent work, making older methods of slave control undesirable. Although the more conventional ways of subduing slaves with force (actual or threat of) are still widely used in other forced labor areas, the Vitoc method has proven itself admirably for the fleet (Canonical history of Vitoc)

Independent, complex, skilled work is exactly why vitoc was developed. You know this Ms. Goldcore. Why would you pretend not to know this? Vitoc was first used for just such tasks as maintaining antimatter reactors. How does any of us know that you are not using vitoc on your thralls to cajole them into exercising their skills for your benefit? I am not saying you are, but your statement as quoted above was a bit of a slip, wouldn't you say?

If you wish to push the agenda of understanding freedom, prepare for the agenda of abolition to be pushed right along with it. They cannot and shall not be separated.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:26:00 - [102]
 

Pretend for a second your an explorer whom found an undiscovered people on an alien planet. Say those people are cannibal's whom regularly kill and eat people who have done no harm. Obviously this would be considered disgusting and wrong... however you are just an explorer who's job is to observe and cant change whats happening.

Now in this case you may ask yourself a reasonable question... WHY do they do this. You would seek understanding of the anthropology of the people. Your seeking understanding to know it better, not to emulate it.

If what your saying is true, trying to understand the why of their savage ways is the exact same as trying to become a savage yourself. obviously not the case.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:31:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
Pretend for a second your an explorer whom found an undiscovered people on an alien planet. Say those people are cannibal's whom regularly kill and eat people who have done no harm. Obviously this would be considered disgusting and wrong... however you are just an explorer who's job is to observe and cant change whats happening.

Now in this case you may ask yourself a reasonable question... WHY do they do this. You would seek understanding of the anthropology of the people. Your seeking understanding to know it better, not to emulate it.

If what your saying is true, trying to understand the why of their savage ways is the exact same as trying to become a savage yourself. obviously not the case.


Are you claiming that the Minmatar are cannibalistic savages? If so, I really don't see any point in continuing to argue with you.




Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:44:00 - [104]
 

No... i was not referring to the Minmatar as cannibalistic savages... at all...

It was a response to Ston about his drawing a line between me understanding the concept of freedom (a point we have gone far from at this point) and freeing slaves. One that I saw no connection to and was pointing out his reasoning with an hypothetical example.


N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:57:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel


Originally by: N'maro Makari
Edited by: N''maro Makari on 01/09/2011 14:04:56



1) Vitoc is a tool for slavery. The same way generational slavery is a non obligatory consequence of slavery, vitoc is a non obligatory tool for slavery. The issue at hand here was slavery and freedom. As I answered above to Templar Mithra, we can definitly mention them and how they are to be considered wrong or right, but they do not impact on the very core of slavery itself : the concept.

2) Same, you can, again, be in favor of slavery while being totally opposed to vitoc techniques or TCMCs. Or generational slavery. These are merely branches of the concept, not its roots.

3) I can not speak for other "philosophical Amarrians" as you say, though I consider the Amarrian justice system as flawed as all the other ones currently in existence. By the way, your "third" statement is again a matter of pots calling kettles black.

Also, why would the Speaker of Truths or even the MIO, the Civic Court or the TC punish the family of a criminal ? Is it the case in the Republic ? You punish all the parents of a criminal for what he has done ? I do not think so. Sometimes it is discussed though, in serious cases. And in the Empire, it is probably the place where it is the most systematic : entire families punished to slavery because one of them was a criminal or violated the law are countless.

I can not speak for the people that enabled Karsoth. Maybe they were sued in justice, maybe not. Were the people that enabled admiral Avent Ethurier or Noir punished for their lack of insight too ? And by enthusing retribution, pots and kettles again. Who striked directly on Amarrian core worlds with their illegal fleet 3 years ago ? Who burnt Ethurier alive in public ? Who invaded Caldari Prime again ? Was it not retribution ?


Now I think you have not at all grasped the entirety of what has been said. The points are entirely relevant because they are the direct result of slavery as a concept being applied in reality. You can conceptualise all you want but the stark truth is in that small vial of Vitoxin.

Why not adress the point instead of trying to find a way around it. All justice systems in the cluster are based on the concept that someone is responisble for their actions, i.e. they chose to break the law. The justice system is based upon free will and a person being held accountable for their exercise of it, which means in essence, retribution for crimes committed.

If we are the product of circumstance and circumstance alone, then we are not guilty of our crimes, but the effect of other conditions. We cannot therefore be held responsible for crimes. This is the reality of applying the concept that free will does not exist.

My aim was to point out the hypocrisy of deriding free will yet subscribing to conventional concepts of justice.

And no, I'm not claiming the Republic has superior justice in any way, or that they adress the cause as well as the effect.

If you anticipated some ultra-nationalist rhetoric, you will have no such thing from me.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:58:00 - [106]
 

Ms Goldcore, let me save you some time. I am not trying to draw any logical lines between your intellectual understanding of freedom and the freeing of slaves. You could write a thesis on freedom and own a million slaves. You need not try to answer me as if I am in debate with you. I am not seeking to lock sabers with anyone here in that way.

I am here to to help create moral dissonance in your heart. The words I say are directed toward that end. I am simply doing my best to help you integrate what you have separated; the intellectual pursuit of understanding from your practice of slave ownership.

Be careful now. Most would respond defensively by saying something like, "well its not working...I feel no dissonance whatsoever...You haven't changed my mind at all...etc..." That might just be the proverbial sic'em if you get my drift. I am an abolitionist and I will continue to bring that perspective to the mix. I am after not just your mind, Ms. Goldcore, but also your heart. I hope that you will free every slave you own.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:20:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari

Why not adress the point instead of trying to find a way around it. All justice systems in the cluster are based on the concept that someone is responisble for their actions, i.e. they chose to break the law. The justice system is based upon free will and a person being held accountable for their exercise of it, which means in essence, retribution for crimes committed.


Although such responsibility is not based on agreement or even awareness of the laws broken. The laws are imposed upon anyone coming within the sphere of influence of those with the power to impose these laws.

Justice does not require free will. Justice is if someone gets what law says that he or she deserves. Injustice is if someone gets what the law say he or she doesn’t deserve or does not get what the law say he or she does deserve. Laws might be unfair, but not unjust.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:45:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
If you wish to push the agenda of understanding freedom, prepare for the agenda of abolition to be pushed right along with it. They cannot and shall not be separated.


Originally by: Ston Momaki
Ms Goldcore, let me save you some time. I am not trying to draw any logical lines between your intellectual understanding of freedom and the freeing of slaves.


Your words not mine

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I am here to to help create moral dissonance in your heart. The words I say are directed toward that end. I am simply doing my best to help you integrate what you have separated; the intellectual pursuit of understanding from your practice of slave ownership.


My heart belongs to God and empire. There is no higher authority than that. So I ask you Ston, why should I have any dissonance at all?

Misquoting the Empress holds no weight on me... I do take seriously that the time for slavery is ending, and hope my actions will make this transition smoother.

I still find no value in freedom... although understand on a more rational level why people would hold value in it.

Mistreating humans, slave or otherwise, is wrong... I do not see any signs mistreatment of humans among my slaves. I care far too much for them.

However... I will make some admissions.

There are those in the empire, like any society, which have risen to power and yet are evil. Faith is not an excuse to forgo vigilance.

Not every holder is just. Owning slaves is a sacred privilege reserved for the Sheppard among us who can guide their people to salvation. Those whom abuse their slaves for sake of material gain will know only damnation. Perhaps not in this life but the next.




Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:36:00 - [109]
 

Ms. Goldcore says, "Mistreating humans, slave or otherwise, is wrong... I do not see any signs mistreatment of humans among my slaves. I care far too much for them."

Is anyone else saying, "WOW!" right now? Can you say, "oxymoron" Ms. Goldcore? Slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans. A very wise body of religious, God-fearing leaders once staked their lives upon this credo, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

What a high view you have of your benevolence toward your thralls that you think that their captivity under you could not possibly be construed as mistreatment. Has it ever occurred to you that your theologians have God all wrong? Has it ever occurred to you that it is somewhat strange that God just happens to approve all the nasty stuff you want to keep doing? How convenient to have such a god and to construct a system of doctrines uniquely suited to serve your own interests.

Write your thesis on the intellectual concept of freedom and we will all read it with bated breath, but we will never believe that you have even remotely grasped its value with anything but the smallest segment of your being, Ms. Goldcore.

Abolition Now

I'm 5particus
Minmatar
REV0LTING
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:38:00 - [110]
 


Holders are parasites and anybody that thinks parasites have any respect for ethics is deluded as holders constant mendacity. Parasites have no rights under tribal law.

People attain freedom from parasites by eradicating them.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:54:00 - [111]
 

I do love seeing how your perfectly willing to assume I am willing to change my opinion, but at the same time hold no will to consider that your position is flawed. If your thinking 'but I am right and you are wrong,' then we have the exact same thing in mind. Ston, perhaps you have more capsuleer in you in which you find so inhuman.

Eternal salvation is worth more than a single lifetime many times over.

You ask me to make my people suffer for your beliefs, why would I ever do a thing like that. I will fight to defend my people from the legions of damned souls who will bring them never ending torment.

Also... didn't I freely admit that there may be those in the Empire whom have power and yet are evil? Faith does not forgo vigilance I believe were my exact words.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:06:00 - [112]
 

Does Amarrian religious culture inculcate the same messiah complex in all of its slave holders as it has in you, Ms. Goldcore? Are you such the master race?

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:12:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 02/09/2011 01:13:11
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans.


Whose definition? Why should this definition stand uncontested? Why should it be the one and only, absolutely right definition?

But then, if slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans, then I'm slaver only by name, not by definition and so are many others in the Empire.

I again would like to point out how you, Cpt. Momaki, instrumentalise words to push your agenda. It's quite horrible, honestly, how you aim to make others submit to your definition of freedom and with this, to your agenda. So much for freedom.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:32:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 02/09/2011 01:13:11
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans.


Whose definition? Why should this definition stand uncontested? Why should it be the one and only, absolutely right definition?

But then, if slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans, then I'm slaver only by name, not by definition and so are many others in the Empire.

I again would like to point out how you, Cpt. Momaki, instrumentalise words to push your agenda. It's quite horrible, honestly, how you aim to make others submit to your definition of freedom and with this, to your agenda. So much for freedom.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra


Yes, isn't just horrible of me to define slavery as mistreatment. How could I do such a terrible thing? How could I take a word like slavery and twist it so horribly to mean something it doesn't. Afterall, everyone knows what a great thing slavery is. Yes, slavery is on our ten top most friendly words list. Let's play word association, shall we?

Let's see...
Slavery: Um, joy, love, happiness, fun, fulfilling.
Emancipation: Terrible, evil, wicked, awful

"So much for freedom?" Weep, weep, wipe a little tear from your eye. Horrible how I am challenging your claimed rightness of slavery. How dare I? How dare I question the moral integrity of your position? Such indignity you must feel that I would try to make you feel bad about something bad you are doing and about something bad you believe. If you are so right about slavery, why so offended that your practice is being questioned? Dost thou protest to much?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but come on, Ms. Mithra, be serious. I am not the one playing with words and definitions here. I would like to see just one Amarrian slave holder admit the truth of why you have slaves; for your greedy self interest. I would like to hear one Amarrian admit that they don't give a toss about God but gladly use their so-called faithful religion as a way not only to subjugate other humans but to subjugate their own minds to moral pusillanimity. Abolition now!

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:23:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 02/09/2011 01:13:11
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans.


Whose definition? Why should this definition stand uncontested? Why should it be the one and only, absolutely right definition?

But then, if slavery is by definition mistreatment of humans, then I'm slaver only by name, not by definition and so are many others in the Empire.

I again would like to point out how you, Cpt. Momaki, instrumentalise words to push your agenda. It's quite horrible, honestly, how you aim to make others submit to your definition of freedom and with this, to your agenda. So much for freedom.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra


Yes, isn't just horrible of me to define slavery as mistreatment. How could I do such a terrible thing? How could I take a word like slavery and twist it so horribly to mean something it doesn't. Afterall, everyone knows what a great thing slavery is. Yes, slavery is on our ten top most friendly words list. Let's play word association, shall we?

Let's see...
Slavery: Um, joy, love, happiness, fun, fulfilling.
Emancipation: Terrible, evil, wicked, awful

"So much for freedom?" Weep, weep, wipe a little tear from your eye. Horrible how I am challenging your claimed rightness of slavery. How dare I? How dare I question the moral integrity of your position? Such indignity you must feel that I would try to make you feel bad about something bad you are doing and about something bad you believe. If you are so right about slavery, why so offended that your practice is being questioned? Dost thou protest to much?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but come on, Ms. Mithra, be serious. I am not the one playing with words and definitions here. I would like to see just one Amarrian slave holder admit the truth of why you have slaves; for your greedy self interest. I would like to hear one Amarrian admit that they don't give a toss about God but gladly use their so-called faithful religion as a way not only to subjugate other humans but to subjugate their own minds to moral pusillanimity. Abolition now!


When our races grew up on our respective worlds as they did we all spoke in our own languages. Amarr as a race were for the most part the first civilization on the planet and technology aside hasn't change too much.

The word for slavery or the idea for slavery is different then your stereotyped raider who comes takes people and sells them for a profit and calls it a day.

So 'Slavery' though admittedly is the closest word to what amarr has its not exactly the same thing as what you thinking when you picture slavery.

Now just to address your comment there about slavery being just for my benefit and I was a selfish man I'll humor you for a moment and pretend you were correct.
Even if you were correct and everything you said was true which you arn't by the way and I agreed to free my slaves I still would not agree with 'Abolition now!'

To many lives would be thrown into chaos and more harm then good would be done. Although the Empress shares with many that slavery as it is now must end she won't, can not do it today.

So stop asking for it its not going to happen. as I said before either work with the empire at our pace or not at all and leave us be.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:50:00 - [116]
 

KITHRUS,
A couple words for you since playing with words seems to be what slave holders do.
Expand your vocabulary with these:
1. Excuses: What you are making for the continued practice of "slavery." There is no difference in the definition of slavery. What the Amarrians are doing is slavery plain and simple.
2. Reparations: What your society owes the slaves you should immediately emancipate. You have all the infrastructure you need to properly emancipate your slaves and see that they are able to matriculate into productive, free lives. You just don't want to because it would be expensive.

I will keep asking you to do what you do not want to do.

"Agitate, agitate, agitate" (Frederick Douglas)

Abolition now!

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:03:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki


Abolition now!


No.


Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:10:00 - [118]
 

No... I would never betray so many people because you will like me more for it... Never

I have faithfully answered your questions and am not 'beating around the bush.' In return I've received the same arguments ive heard since i was 5

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:33:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Ston Momaki


Abolition now!


No.




That seems to be your favorite word. You must be a splendidly kind holder..



Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 07:37:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Yes, isn't just horrible of me to define slavery as mistreatment. How could I do such a terrible thing? How could I take a word like slavery and twist it so horribly to mean something it doesn't. Afterall, everyone knows what a great thing slavery is. Yes, slavery is on our ten top most friendly words list. Let's play word association, shall we?


Cpt. Momaki, please change your tone. This way of arguing does your position no good. I understand you are passionate about the subject, but if you descend into ridicule you will lose a good portion of your audience.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
I would like to see just one Amarrian slave holder admit the truth of why you have slaves; for your greedy self interest


Do you honestly think such slavers will even read this thread, let alone take the time to respond in such a way. It is folly to try and convert people at the very opposite of the spectrum with reason alone, as a abolitionist you should target the liberal slave holders and perhap some moderates. You don't need to convince those that there some holders abuse their slaves, they know this, you have to convince them that either they are abusing their slaves, or they are contributing to the abuse of other slaves.

Waving a pitchfork and screaming 'abilition now!' won't get you far among the Amarr, that's more of a Matari approach to problem solving.


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