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Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:53:00 - [61]
 

I apologize for my more... passionate tone earlier, I can get a little defensive, sometimes emotional, about my slaves.

The simple fact is I don't see my duties as a holder as one to be taken lightly, nor an excuse for cheap labor. There is alot of pride to be taken in taking care of so many people. I do care greatly as well. Care almost to a point where simply hiring Amarrian citizens would be cheaper.

Slavery wasn't originally for the money, and people who use it as a tool for profit are ignoring the entire point of the endeavor. I would even go so far as to agree with the so called freedom fighters that there is no God in that.

Besides, what would change if I mearly started to pay them and called them free? They would still have no choices open to them. They do not belong yet in the Empire as citizens, and turning over trained and strong people to a republic which has attacked my kin is downright treason. Even if I paid them they would still have no option but to work for me, but now I couldn't take care for them properly. This is a extremely poor option for anyone whom cares at all about their well being.

For now, I wont abandon my charges. I would either be opening them up to a Empire whom isn't ready for them or a republic which will betray me (my slaves as well... Rens isn't exactly the best place to live with some 50% of its surface run by local gangs).

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:14:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
I apologize for my more... passionate tone earlier, I can get a little defensive, sometimes emotional, about my slaves.




If you truly love your slaves so much, you would pay them and have them as servants, free to leave should they so choose.

Quote:

I would even go so far as to agree with the so called freedom fighters that there is no God in that.



At least we can agree on something. This is progress.

Quote:

They do not belong yet in the Empire as citizens, and turning over trained and strong people to a republic which has attacked my kin is downright treason.



Ironically, they attack your kin because you won't return them to theirs and allow them to live their own lives and pursue their own dreams.

Quote:

Even if I paid them they would still have no option but to work for me, but now I couldn't take care for them properly. This is a extremely poor option for anyone whom cares at all about their well being.



If you paid them standard wages, they could take care of themselves. They are not children contrary to popular Amarrian belief, they are fully capable of being independent, and most likely desire as much.

Quote:

For now, I wont abandon my charges. I would either be opening them up to a Empire whom isn't ready for them or a republic which will betray me (my slaves as well... Rens isn't exactly the best place to live with some 50% of its surface run by local gangs).



If you freed your slaves and returned them to their rightful home, and supported the abolition movement, the Tribal Liberation Force would more than likely be grateful and would extend their thanks and protection. They are not savage, vengeful people. They just want their people back. That's what the entire Amarr-Minmatar conflict is about. If every single Minmatar slave was freed and returned to the Republic, the war would end that day.

What is truly holding you all back is the simple fact that such a loss of free labor would topple the Empire's economy. It is for matters of the material world that you cling to your cheap labor, not the will of God.






Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.30 22:39:00 - [63]
 

I believe the point was entirely lost on you. What your asking for is either treason or just downright non-nonsensical. For mine, paying them a servants wage would decrease their standard of living. For that matter, what would change for them? Nothing...

Although I believe that this has crossed a tangent not within the original scope of this thread. I am grateful of the various opinions shared. Some speaking clearly answering my question, others from the same cult of greed I encounter on a frightening regular basis. Either way, I am grateful of your time.

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 00:55:00 - [64]
 

In ancient earth legend, at the time of a great struggle between abolitionists and those in favor of slavery, there was a pro-slavery man named John Wilkes Boothe who also referred to the abolitionists as "traitors" to their country. History would vilify him and honor those he scorned.

Ms. Goldcore, if your compassion for your slaves is as parental as you claim, do what a good parent would do. Equip your "children" for independent life. Set them free to be productive citizens wherever they may choose to go. You compassion argument cannot end in the justification of continued slavery. Again, do you value freedom? Free your slaves! Free your slaves! Free your slaves!

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 01:38:00 - [65]
 

"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves." Jamyl I

Ms. Goldcore, would you commit treason against your Empress? Wouldn't you wish to honor the wishes of your Empress for the future of your culture? Why not be an example of one who leads in the accomplishment of her glorious vision? Certainly if you have in your possession any from the ninth generation on, you had better free them post haste. And for the rest, your Empress expressed a totality of freedom for all as an expression of breaking chains of hatred and the restraints of mind to usher an age of reason where the grace of God is the focus. Surely, you respect your Empress, don't you? She seemed to value freedom.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:38:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Manwe Todako
In ancient earth legend, at the time of a great struggle between abolitionists and those in favor of slavery, there was a pro-slavery man named John Wilkes Boothe who also referred to the abolitionists as "traitors" to their country. History would vilify him and honor those he scorned.

Ms. Goldcore, if your compassion for your slaves is as parental as you claim, do what a good parent would do. Equip your "children" for independent life. Set them free to be productive citizens wherever they may choose to go. You compassion argument cannot end in the justification of continued slavery. Again, do you value freedom? Free your slaves! Free your slaves! Free your slaves!


That is vile rumor at best and lunacy at worst.

There is no 'Earth'.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.31 04:45:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
I believe the point was entirely lost on you. What your asking for is either treason or just downright non-nonsensical. For mine, paying them a servants wage would decrease their standard of living. For that matter, what would change for them? Nothing...

Although I believe that this has crossed a tangent not within the original scope of this thread. I am grateful of the various opinions shared. Some speaking clearly answering my question, others from the same cult of greed I encounter on a frightening regular basis. Either way, I am grateful of your time.



When I read the above, I was tempted to respond in a rather indignant manner to your comment about abolitionists being a 'greed cult', and the irony in that statement. But I stopped listening to my anger, and will now address the matter with a cool head and try to assess it the best I can. We are going out of our way to stop an act that we believe is inhumane and ungodly. What is greedy about this? I have received nothing from it in any tangible monetary form, in fact, I've donated to further this cause. There is nothing greedy about the abolition movement, and I don't understand what you are basing this accusation from.

Still, I appreciate your willingness to listen to what we have to say and your willingness to remain somewhat objective to the issues discussed.



Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.31 04:58:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
Originally by: Manwe Todako
In ancient earth legend, at the time of a great struggle between abolitionists and those in favor of slavery, there was a pro-slavery man named John Wilkes Boothe who also referred to the abolitionists as "traitors" to their country. History would vilify him and honor those he scorned.

Ms. Goldcore, if your compassion for your slaves is as parental as you claim, do what a good parent would do. Equip your "children" for independent life. Set them free to be productive citizens wherever they may choose to go. You compassion argument cannot end in the justification of continued slavery. Again, do you value freedom? Free your slaves! Free your slaves! Free your slaves!


That is vile rumor at best and lunacy at worst.

There is no 'Earth'.


It appears I spoke too soon regarding objectivity, or perhaps that was limited only to Ms. Goldcore.

If you truly reject Terran theory, you are close-minded. There is evidence everywhere: ancient dilapidated stargates found by the Minmatar which were not built by them and that showed signs of thousands of years of aging, physical proof of artificial terraforming on hundreds of planets: mind you, there is visible difference between terraforms conducted in modern times and these discovered ancient terraforms, which were clearly the product of another race, as well as ancient structures on several worlds near the EVE Gate itself, and of course, the Jovian race, who possess technology eons ahead of our own for an unknown reason. Is it not possible that perhaps the Jovians are the Terrans?...

While I do not wish to enter in a debate on Terran theory as well as the morality of slavery, this was simply to point out that there is immense proof that is logical and scientific, which can be disregarded and shut out when a single man refuses to approach the matter with some neutrality. Think about it in the context of the current argument. Think about what Mr. Todako said: if Mr. Kithrus truly loved his slaves as children to him, he would be a responsible parent and train them to be independent, and allow them to leave.

Mr. Kithrus, if you are going to claim to be a parent to these slaves, you must live up to your claim. Parents let their children go and lead their own lives, perhaps guiding them along the way but letting them make their own decisions. I implore you, think about this.


Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.31 08:41:00 - [69]
 

Talking about the Earth theory is extremely off topic... although that does not stop it from being interesting.

I would like to invite all to visit my families tavern located in Hayumtom were we can discuss such matters in a more appropriate location. It is equipped with state of the art holo emitters so even if you cannot make it out here ya can partake in the conversation.

Simply contact me via mail and Ill give you the information. I look forward for your patronage.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.31 09:07:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 31/08/2011 09:11:53
First: Even though many people here would like to claim otherwise, one can value freedom and see merit in slavery at the same time. To claim otherwise is, simply, ignorance or the attempt at power-projection.
Before I get into this, there's one big point to cover, though:

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Ms. Goldcore, would you commit treason against your Empress? Wouldn't you wish to honor the wishes of your Empress for the future of your culture? Why not be an example of one who leads in the accomplishment of her glorious vision? (...) And for the rest, your Empress expressed a totality of freedom for all as an expression of breaking chains of hatred and the restraints of mind to usher an age of reason where the grace of God is the focus. Surely, you respect your Empress, don't you? She seemed to value freedom.



Cpt. Momaki,

while HRH Empress Jamyl I gave out an edict to release all slaves of 9th generation and higher and announced that "the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason" it's misconstruing her words if one claims that she spoke out against all and every forms of slavery.
It's quite clear that the "chains of hatred that restrain our minds" aren't meant to refer to any chains that keep slaves in bonds: It's those chains that, for example, you're embracing when you speak out against slavery of any form without using your mind first and misconstrue her words.
It's also quite clear to everyone even a bit familiar with the intricate system of slavery in the Empire, that "the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves" aren't pointing to slavery in general, which is easily seen if one remembers the fortune of those refusard holders - slavery. It is aimed to mean those that simply were unlucky and thus ended up in slavery. Those, who didn't end up in slavery simply by bad luck, but because they took action - of their own 'free' will - that lead them to end up in slavery aren't merely 'less fortunate'. They choose their fate.

Now, on to the system of slavery in the Empire. Seemingly unknown by most non-Amarrian people is the fact that, the single most significant source of 1st generation slaves in the Empire is, nowadays, criminals convicted to slavery. Penal slavery is a tried and time honored form of slavery that has been proven to be a most effective method to reform criminals.

I'd like to make everyone aware that none of the other nations of the New Eden cluster is neither prepared nor willing to stop taking rights and freedom away from criminals and all go to the extent that those criminals are kept isolated from the citizenry and mostly they have to carry out (forced) labor. The difference is merely, that in the Empire there's a single person responsible for the reformatory process of the criminal.

Whether or not it is the case that the Amarrian penal system is better or worse than that of the other three nations is, really, not the point here.
The point is, that all four nations are taking rights and freedom(s) away from their subjects and citizens under given circumstances.

To claim, therefore, that if 'one' does so, 'one' is unable to appreciate or understand the value of freedom is simple ignorance at best, a showing of hypocrisy of the ugliest sort at worst.

If anyone is still prepared to hold that under no circumstances a human should be bereft of his freedom (even if he uses his so-called 'freedom' to kill his fellow human beings without any mind and reason) I'd ask those people to bring their own house 'in order' first, before they call out others for not having done so.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:01:00 - [71]
 

I have known exactly one Amarrian holder who sought to understand, at a personal level, what it was like to experience slavery. Fate, sadly, took that man from the cluster, along with his wonderful wife.

They had the freedom to choose to push for better things. They used it.

They had the freedom to fight for what they believed in. They fought for it.

They had the freedom to hold people in bondage, or to choose to free them. They chose the latter.

Freedom is the ability to commit action, whatever those actions may be. Yes, it includes freedom to worship whatever deity you wish, or to choose to avoid religion. It means to work where one wishes, for whom one wishes, and to seek a better position. It means deciding whether to go to work today, or to call off, get your kids, and spend the day fishing. To wear what you want, say what you want, do what you want, within reasonable limits set by a reasonable society.

Of course, if one lacks the ability to do any of these things, to choose their own actions, simply because they were born the wrong race, that person is not free.

All of you defending slavery, all of you saying that "freedom is just a catchword", put your money where your mouth is. Experience having all of your rights stripped away, all of your liberties, any shred of dignity or pride you may have. And no, I dont mean a weekend in "Mistress Malice's Dungeon".

Bet not one of you actually steps up and, you know, acts, huh? You have the freedom to support what you say, to know what happens to those "less lucky". You just choose to not exersize that freedom.

Dont wanna give your freedom up, huh? C'mon... why not?

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:39:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente

It appears I spoke too soon regarding objectivity, or perhaps that was limited only to Ms. Goldcore.

If you truly reject Terran theory, you are close-minded. There is evidence everywhere: ancient dilapidated star-gates found by the Minmatar which were not built by them and that showed signs of thousands of years of aging, physical proof of artificial transforming on hundreds of planets: mind you, there is visible difference between terraform conducted in modern times and these discovered ancient terraform, which were clearly the product of another race, as well as ancient structures on several worlds near the EVE Gate itself, and of course, the Jovian race, who possess technology eons ahead of our own for an unknown reason. Is it not possible that perhaps the Jovians are the Terrans?...



All your argument supports is there was an advanced race before not that there was an earth. This by the way is common knowledge and hardly a topic worth getting into since we are discussing freedom and not mythology of where all the races 'supposedly' came from.

I believe in the Jovians being real, I been in their space.
I believe in other races that have long since left us and have left wreckage for people to find.

What I do not believe is everyone came from some far flung distant star through a gate no one can get to or a history of which no one really remembers. The Amarr have history going thousands of thousands of years back and there is no mention of a before time you speak of not even in passing.

All you have is a myth and some argument that there were people before but not proof of where they came from which is where this topic ends.

As for loving my slaves like children and letting some of them go..... that's the whole point.

I've done it for Maria, I've done it for others. Perhaps you should ask around before you assume I've never freed a slave. I find it most insulting that people assume right of the bat that a holders first mentality is to sit on slave families forever.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:18:00 - [73]
 

Thank you Ms. Mithra for your description of prison. Excursiveness of this kind tends to blend issues to the point that we lose sight of the center. What you fail to mention about the penalty of slavery and in particular regarding those who were sentenced to slavery after the decree of Jamyl I, is that the sentence was for "multiple generations." Imagine being sentenced for a crime committed and part of that sentence would be that your descendants to the ninth generation would be slaves. You failed to mention that Ms. Mithra.

Now the elephant in the room that everyone pretends isn't there is also one of the reasons our organization presses for abolition. That elephant? The Khanid. We know very well that the Khanid are enslaving any and all races for any reason. When Amarr is free from slavery, there will critical mass to deal with the Khanid. When the Khanid are free from slavery, there will be critical mass to deal with the Sansha.

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:26:00 - [74]
 

I will try to be brief. There is a two pronged reason why Terran theory is so threatening to those who would perpetuate slavery. First, Terran theory posits that we all are brothers and sisters genetically. We are all of one race. There is no master race. We are of the human race and we ought not enslave one another. Second, ancient Terran literature addresses the issue of slavery through its legends and accounts of great struggles to free slaves and become a just society. The solutions presented in Terran history inevitably lead to abolition.

The staunch slave holder will seethe red the minute you mention the Terran connection. Let us keep mentioning it.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:31:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 31/08/2011 13:32:57
Originally by: Kithrus

What I do not believe is everyone came from some far flung distant star through a gate no one can get to or a history of which no one really remembers. The Amarr have history going thousands of thousands of years back and there is no mention of a before time you speak of not even in passing.



Originally by: The Scriptures, Gheinok the First 1:32

"And so it was,
That Gheinok led his people on the great exodus,
To the land of our Salvation,
To the land of God,
To the land of his Chosen,
To Athra."



Originally by: The Scriptures, Introduction to Gheinok

Dano Gheinok is perhaps the most reverred Amarrian Prophet. It was he who led the first conformists through the EVE gate and onto the planet of Athra.


Originally by: The Scriptures, Book I 1:14

"The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being.
Our illustrious ancestors freed their souls from the evils of the old.
world and created a new one.

The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
The Lord gave our Emperor the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil.
Ever since, the Emperor has lived the lives of his subjects and breathed the air of authority."


Seems to me that your Scriptures have plenty o' references to the gate and some old world long 'fore ye e'er stepped foot onto Athra.

Nay sure where the Disciples of Ston keep gettin' their so-called Terran literature and lore from, me onesie. Ne'er heard o' most o' it. Just pointing out that your Scriptures make references to a world and gate long past.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:49:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
"freedom is just a catchword", put your money where your mouth is.

Freedom in the usual propaganda is a catchword. The word itself, though, is not. Just be wary of how to use it.

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Experience having all of your rights stripped away, all of your liberties, any shred of dignity or pride you may have.

Pots and kettles.

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Thank you Ms. Mithra for your description of prison. Excursiveness of this kind tends to blend issues to the point that we lose sight of the center. What you fail to mention about the penalty of slavery and in particular regarding those who were sentenced to slavery after the decree of Jamyl I, is that the sentence was for "multiple generations." Imagine being sentenced for a crime committed and part of that sentence would be that your descendants to the ninth generation would be slaves. You failed to mention that Ms. Mithra.

Now the elephant in the room that everyone pretends isn't there is also one of the reasons our organization presses for abolition. That elephant? The Khanid. We know very well that the Khanid are enslaving any and all races for any reason. When Amarr is free from slavery, there will critical mass to deal with the Khanid. When the Khanid are free from slavery, there will be critical mass to deal with the Sansha.


Indeed.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:19:00 - [77]
 

This "Elephant" is really not the proverbial Elephant in the room. For some reasons:

First, penal slavery remains slavery regardless of whether it is lading to generational slavery or not. The point is: Every nation not only knows the practice of stripping criminals of their rights and freedom(s) - all of them engage in this practice. Thus, if stripping people of freedom leads to the inability to appreciate or understand freedom, it really isn't a problem of Amarrian society, but one none of the nations is a stranger to.

Second. You don't seem to be in the same room as me: The question in the room I'm in at the moment, is the question of the value of freedom and as one doesn't need to be a supporter of generational slavery just because one supports penal slavery. As I said, you seem to be terribly uninformed: penal slavery is not dependent on, nor does it necessarily lead to generational slavery. While some may see their entire families sentenced to slavery, others are not. Either way, it doesn't impact the question, as freedom is taken away in both cases.

Third. It is indeed easy to loose sight of the center - I think this is the case if one stops to see the question at hand and drifts off to other lands like Elephants that are dwelling on totally different islands than the one the question at hand dwells on. You, obviously do so. By the way, while the Khanid have out of historical necessities slave of all kinds of ethnicities, they are - now that the Kingdom is a Kingdom of the Empire - beholden to the imperial laws that regulate the acquisition of slaves in the Empire. Also, slavery was never something that was reserved to any race - it's not a racist institution, per se. So, a refusard holder is enslaved regardless of his ethnicity, just as a criminal whose deeds merit enslavement will be enslaved regardless of his identity as Amarr, Khanid, Ni-Kinni or Ammatar.

And last, you putting the Sansha in the same line as Amarr and Khanid show your blatant ignorance of the differing realities.

To conclude, your attempting to project power to effect the abolishment of something you personally feel abhorrent, not because of what it is, but because of what you feel and think it to be, Cpt. Momaki. And while you might think you're right with this, I tell you, that in regard to the Empire, all you'll effect with your impertinent demands and your hypocritical show of ignorance, is, quite the opposite of what you'd like to effect.

Now to the question of freedom and catchwords. First it is a word. Words might be used in different ways. What I claim is that many, in fact most people using it, use it merely as a buzzword for power-projection. Mr. Momaki seems to be a good example - see how he stopped contributing at all to the question of the thread and instead pushes his abolitionist agenda in here?
Of course, though, this word can as well be used not merely as a catchphrase and in a sensible way that merits discussion about the value of freedom. Unfortunately for some, that'd mean they'd have to stop to push their agenda's for just a moment.

Honestly, in fact, even I can't push my agenda here as much as I'd like to: See, I let it open whether or not penal slavery is a good thing. Which it is, in my opinion. I'm merely stating that, if one argues that taking freedom away from peeople makes one unable to appreciate and understand freedom, then that's a problem all Empire's have, as all of them take freedoms away from certain types of peoples.

And similar things are true in case of the 'you have to have been a slave' argument, for in that case everyone has to be enslaved to be able to value and understand freedom, which would lead to quite a paradoxical situation, where those asking for abolition of slavery are planning a future, where no one will be able to appreciate their freedom...

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:56:00 - [78]
 

Has anyone noticed, the longer the answer, the weaker the argument. Do not try to share blame. Here is your argument: You define slavery as what others are doing so you can justify your own practice of it. Abolition now!

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:16:00 - [79]
 

At least, I'm giving an argument.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:29:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
Abolition now!


No.


Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:47:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 01/09/2011 04:48:59
Originally by: Malcolm Khross


Seems to me that your Scriptures have plenty o' references to the gate and some old world long 'fore ye e'er stepped foot onto Athra.

Nay sure where the Disciples of Ston keep gettin' their so-called Terran literature and lore from, me onesie. Ne'er heard o' most o' it. Just pointing out that your Scriptures make references to a world and gate long past.


No not really, Athra is or once was a Continent on the planet now known as Amarr Prime. Which later became the name of the planet which later became Amarr Prime.

Quote:
The staunch slave holder will seethe red the minute you mention the Terran connection. Let us keep mentioning it.


No the Holder in question will roll his eyes at the myth and think you a foolish child listening to fairy tales.

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Ston Momaki
Abolition now!


No.



Exactly this.

Let me explain this to you.

Amarr wants all slaves to be enlightened and free its as simple as that.
Second the Amarr as members of Concord have treaties allowing them to hold slaves.
Third both my King and my Empress say I can hold Slaves.
Forth Amarr has the largest fleet and the best technology available.
Fifth until you can change two-four of the above facts I recommend you work with the Amarr to free the slaves at our pace in our way as requested by her highness. Otherwise you risk the wrath of both the Amarr, concord and her allies.

We will choose the time of the end of slavery not you. we can do this together or not its up to you but it will be done at the Empire's Time not yours.

In this matter I echo the above as said but Admiral Mitara.

No.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:16:00 - [82]
 

Military strength aside, slavery has a purpose and is not strictly for the holders benefit. I believe someone earlier referred to me treating my slaves as my herd whom I guide as 'messiah complex.' Yes, it is my sacred duty to save those who serve me from eternal damnation. Although I do not refer to myself as a messiah, it is my sacred duty.

For that matter a slave's live isn't always a terrible thing. While I agree there are misguided individuals whom disgrace the Empire with their gluttony, this isn't the norm. Most slaves live a very modest and content life. True it can be hard work, but should not every man earn his way in this universe?

Beside the point, a single lifetime measured against an eternity of salvation is a easy trade. If only we were all as blessed to have the road to heaven laid out before our feet from the moment we emerge from the womb. The slaves have this, while the rest of us must be vigilant from sin our entire lives. Us capsuleers are damned with many lifetimes to lose our way to the lord. When our day comes we will not have the same luxury as the slave whom toiled in the fields.

I understand that the spiritual arguments will be hard, if not impossible, to grasp from someone who is unfaithful. From where I am standing arguments about freedom or personal rights are hard to grasp.


Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:41:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Nakal Ashera on 01/09/2011 09:42:03
Originally by: Kithrus

Forth Amarr has the largest fleet and the best technology available.



While I'm not looking for an arguement or to dispute any of your points fully, I'd like to point out that this paticular statement is factually incorrect.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:29:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Nakal Ashera
Edited by: Nakal Ashera on 01/09/2011 09:42:03
Originally by: Kithrus

Forth Amarr has the largest fleet and the best technology available.



While I'm not looking for an arguement or to dispute any of your points fully, I'd like to point out that this paticular statement is factually incorrect.




Have you forgotten about our superweapon?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:44:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
At least, I'm giving an argument.


As much as I agree with your statements while Mr Momaki looks to be out of arguments, I must respectfully point out that you did not really answer on the hereditary side of penal slavery.

Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:56:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Nakal Ashera on 01/09/2011 10:59:45
Originally by: Rodj Blake

Have you forgotten about our superweapon?


A single item - especially one that is not replicable - does not denote overall technological superiority. The statement was made in broad terms, and I responded to it from that context.

As I said, though, I'm not looking for an arguement.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:25:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 01/09/2011 13:29:17
I agree that I did not really answer the hereditary side of slavery, for I hold it largely inconsequential to the debate so far.

If the argument is, that taking freedom away from people is in general leading to the inability to understand and value freedom - and that has been the argument so far - one doesn't have to give special attention to generational slavery.

Now, there was the claim, that penal slavery is necessarily connected to generational slavery, that generational slavery leads to the inability of the practitioner of it to the inability to understand and value freedom.
To this, I answered already, though more implicitly than explicitly, that generational slavery isn't a necessary consequence of penal slavery nor that they are in any other way necessarily connected. The claim that they are is factually wrong and show only the ignorance of the accusatory side of the intricacies of the system of slavery in the Empire and it's interconnections with and the complexity of Amarrian society.

Thus, even if generational slavery would lead to this inability, as claimed, it doesn't mean that the practice of slavery in general does so - and therefore it can't be an argument for abolition of slavery in general.

As I'm against generational slavery, and the slaves I hold are either not allowed to procreate (in the case of penal saves) or their children are born free (in the case of those slaves I hold that entered slavery out of their own personal reasons) I don't see how I have to defend the practice of slavery any further.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that generational slavery isn't defendable against this specific argument at least: Indeed I think it easily is, one would merely have to point out that people get caught up in the "penal systems" of all of the four nations, without deserving it, be it, because they are the victims of corruption, be it that the law merely does guarantee legal justice, not ethical justness, be it that the culture just happens to be steeped in tradition and therefore takes freedoms away from some people for that reason (e.g. the Matari are precluding specific individuals from participation in their society, which is arguably taking a freedom from them.).

Without wanting to delve any deeper into that, as I don't see it in any way relevant for the point I want to make here, I hope I made clear how the existence or non-existence of generational slavery has no bearing on the question of whether the practice of slavery leads to or is otherwise connected to the inability to understand and/or value the concept of slavery.

If all forms of slavery lead to the inability to appreciate 'freedom' properly, because slavery includes taking freedoms away from people, than all nations have to problem, because they practice taking away freedom(s) from individuals.

If slavery in general has to be refused out of any other reasons, it doesn't impact the discussion at hand.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:03:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: N''maro Makari on 01/09/2011 14:04:56
Theres more filler in some of these posts than food from a Jita fast-food joint.

Lets dispel the first measurement of compltete nonsense:

Vitoc is still widely used in the Empire as a means of controlling slaves. Or do you think the Elder Fleet used thousands of tonnes of Insorum just for the hell of it?

Second, you may turn your noses up at Vitoc, and many capsuleer Amarrians do, but that does not get you out of the issue. You are but a few thousand among billions of Slave Holding corporations and families. Your apprehensiveness does not absolve you or proof your argument from the Vitoc point.

Third, right to the meat of the issue, I see many "philosophical" Amarrians come here and refer to the word freedom as if it were just a passing fancy for the less enlightened. But then surely you must abhor your own Justice system? As so many of you have expressed a passion for it. Slavery as punishment for crimes. But if we do not have free will, how do you hold people accountable for their crimes? Rarely do I hear of scentences in the Empire involving the roots of the crime. When Articio Kor-Azor was dismembered piece by piece, did the Speaker of Truth deign to punish the Kor-Azor family for allowing him to develop into such a brat? And with Karsoth, was he held accountable or those who enabled him? You dismiss freedom but enthuse retribution?

Justice requires free will.

Think about that before you dismiss it so readily.

*edit: Typo

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:21:00 - [89]
 

Penal slavery and generational slavery nay be the same thing, that be the truth o' it.

Penal slavery does nay deny an understanding or appreciation o' freedom, it emphasizes it. When ye have yer freedoms taken from ye, ye learn to appreciate and cherish 'em that much more. Ergo, upon regaining your freedoms, ye will likely nay forfeit them again. That be the point o' penal slavery, after all.

Generational slavery, on the other hand, does nay reinforce an appreciation for freedom 'cause the enslaved ne'er experience it. In order to appreciate freedom, ye have to experience it at some point. Otherwise it be just an ideal or concept, ne'er a true understanding or appreciation.

Good on ye for understanding that enough to handle slavery the way ye do, Mithra. I do nay fully understand yer practice o' slavery, but I be givin' ye the benefit o' doubt based on yer words.

For the record, me issue with slavery extends only to those thinkin' it be the only way to "enlighten" people and usin' religion, culture, science or whate'er else to justify the mass and/or generational enslavement o' people.

Slavery nay be the only way to bring people to yer god, nor to educate them, nor to enlighten them. If ye deny the simplistic truth o' that statement, then yer interest nay be in enlightening, it be in enslaving.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:15:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Nakal Ashera
Edited by: Nakal Ashera on 01/09/2011 10:59:45
Originally by: Rodj Blake

Have you forgotten about our superweapon?


A single item - especially one that is not replicable - does not denote overall technological superiority.



How do you know that if I may ask ?

On a sidenote, if an item is not replicable it can be due to 2 factors :

- No resources at hand to build another one.
- No technological insight to understand its functioning and creating another one. This factor also indicates that the owner is not the creator in this particular case.


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