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Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.25 05:53:00 - [1]
 

First, before I begin, let me make a brief statement about what I hope to accomplish here. My goal is to seek understanding and empathy; not cause an argument or insult anyone. However I can only speak from my point of view, which to many I could imagine, may be inflammatory. So, with that said, lets dig into the real meat of the matter.

Throughout my life there has been one concept which seems to elude me. What is freedom and what is its value. On a intellectual level I can clearly understand it, self determination and ability to chose what one does with their life. However this concept holds very little weight to me. I see every day republic and federation forces fighting, killing, and toiling their entire lives to bring freedom to perfectly happy people. Freedom, to them, must be worth more than happiness or even their lives. I cannot grasp why this could be.

Now I can understand the will to be free from a dangerous or harmful situation. In the case of slavery I hear of isolated cases of abuse and torture to slaves. In these extreme, and to my knowledge rare, cases freedom is equatable to life and happiness (two concepts with obvious weight). Also I certainly understand the need to have a free mind. Such luxury that the Nation delights in robbing people of. In both these cases freedom is directly equatable to well-being.

So I ask you for your thoughts on the value of freedom. I'm not interested in arguments telling me to release my slaves or such. I am interested in what it means to someone who finds value in it, preferably in a quantifiable manner.

Thank you for your time and I wish you good health and God's blessing.

Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.25 11:37:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
What is freedom and what is its value. On a intellectual level I can clearly understand it, self determination and ability to chose what one does with their life.

I would suggest that it is not freedom you are considering here, but liberty.

Absolute freedom is not inherently ethical in itself as one person's aspiration to pursue their freedom will invariably impact on that of another. Freedom is merely a lack of constraint.

Liberty can be described as freedom that introduces an accepted ethical constraint.

The question then becomes "what is ethical?"

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.25 12:13:00 - [3]
 

*Rek appears on a holovid stream, looking tired and holding a mug of coffee*

As an Amarrian, I am assuming you are of faith. Since the justifications for slavery are rooted in the faith, I will go from there.

Traditionally, slavery has been promoted in the Empire because it is an attempt to bring the non-believer into the light of God. It has been succesful in some cases, with some former slaves staying in the Empire to work. I myself was born into slavery to a very liberal Nefentar Holder in the Ammatar Mandate, so through compassion and kindness he showed me the value in the faith (to the point where even to this day I retain strong elements of the Amarrian religion).

With all this being said, I think slavery for the purpose of enlightenment is an incredibly weak approach. Rather than seeing the Matari, calling them barbarians, and then enslaving them to enlighten them, the Empire should have simply offered technology and theological insight. Those who would have rejected it would have been left without enlightenment as we see it, but certainly would have led happier lives. In other words, I think the Empire should have offered at least something to non-believers and everything to believers. Instead they turned to slavery, which I am against.

As one wise young lady put it to me, imagine the faith as a contract. If one is taken by the hand and physically forced to sign the contract, is the contract valid in the court of law even when it was unwillingly signed? Do you think God sees any false shadow of faith as being actual faith? Most surely someone willingly who walks into God's embrace is more at peace and more steadfast in their beliefs.

And so I come around to answer your question directly. The utility of freedom is justified because it allows a person to come to enlightenment in their own way, and in so doing become stronger in it.

Now, do realize that this is entirely theological reasoning. I use this form of reasoning because I again assume as an ethnic Amarrian you are of faith and so hold it higher than anything else. If you'd like a secular justification of freedom I can provide that as well.

Peace be upon you.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:56:00 - [4]
 

We cannot proceed to discuss your goals in this topic until we confront the contradictions. You say that your goal is to seek understanding and empathy. But, you also say that you are not interested in arguments telling you to free your slaves. These two statements are in contradiction. You also describe those in slavery as "perfectly happy." Funny you should use those terms. History records slave holders consistently describing their slaves using the words, "content," "happy," "in their place," etc. These same historical examples also record the slave's perspective as much different.

The concept of freedom eludes you, because you were born free, have never been enslaved, and have not learned what the opposite of freedom and self-determination is. We who are free have the luxury of intellectualizing freedom; of discussing its significance around the coffee table or at the bar. We pat ourselves on the back by using comparisons; "Other slave holders torture their slaves;" "I am kind and benevolent toward my slaves;" "My slaves are perfectly happy." Oxymoron: "happy slave"

Do you want to know the value of freedom? You are asking the wrong people. You are asking the intellectual elite who can philosophize well enough but cannot grasp the root of freedom. If you want to know the value of freedom, find out from all these "perfectly happy slaves." You will need to be wise because they are quite afraid to answer you truthfully. History shows us that no community or thralls wants to remain so. Why, because they value freedom. Let their aspirations define the value for you if you dare.

Ms. Goldcore, you cannot sincerely ask the questions you are asking and not be open to arguments to free your slaves! How can you have understanding and empathy for something you are denying others?

The Disciples of Ston say, THE TIME HAS COME FOR ABOLITION

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.25 14:55:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ston Momaki
The Disciples of Ston say, THE TIME HAS COME FOR ABOLITION

Aye! Hear hear!

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:16:00 - [6]
 

There is no 'freedom' as touted by the Matar, Gallente, and the anarchists. We all serve our betters.

Mr Jaiga, I'm disappointed you fell for the lies of the 'wise' heathen. We are not called to turn a blind eye toward those who turn from, or reject the Faith. I suggest you spend some more time with the Scriptures, and less time with enemies of the Empire.


N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:33:00 - [7]
 

"Isolated" cases?

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:23:00 - [8]
 

Pay close attention:

And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
This is the vision of the religious elite among the Amarr. Freedom for the master race, slavery for everyone else.

Until there is a community within the Amarr that will stand up against the constant name calling and threats of the so-called faithful; until there is a community within the Amarr that has the courage to live with the stigma of boldly saying, The Book of Reclaiming is not divine and should not direct our dealings with others; until there are those that admit that slavery is not Godly but wicked, the Amarrian quiry into freedom is without integrity. "So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the heavens." If you really believe this, enslave the Gallente now! If you really believe this, enslave the Caldari now! If you really believe this, enslave the Jove now! Your history of enslavement of other races has been a history of following the path of least resistance, not one of faith.

Religiously justified racial supremacy must be rejected before any discussion of freedom has any meaning.

The Disciples of Ston repeat, "The Time for Abolition has Come."

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle


Mr Jaiga, I'm disappointed you fell for the lies of the 'wise' heathen. We are not called to turn a blind eye toward those who turn from, or reject the Faith. I suggest you spend some more time with the Scriptures, and less time with enemies of the Empire.



I didn't "fall" for anything, Admiral.
I find the less time I spend with the Scriptures and the more time I spend with God's creation (the people), the closer I get to God.

The path which is written is not the True Path. The True Path is ineffable, and is directly between an individual and God.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:29:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
There is no 'freedom' as touted by the Matar, Gallente, and the anarchists. We all serve our betters.

Mr Jaiga, I'm disappointed you fell for the lies of the 'wise' heathen. We are not called to turn a blind eye toward those who turn from, or reject the Faith. I suggest you spend some more time with the Scriptures, and less time with enemies of the Empire.




Funny thing, really. The "Scriptures" are an ever-adapting, constantly changing set of texts that are judged truth or not by a council of men.

Perhaps if your Scriptures were pulled back to what they were when they were originally "handed down" by the Sefrim all those centuries ago, you might find a very different message, savvy?

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.26 01:08:00 - [11]
 

So, quite a bit to cover in my absence. I obviously wont be able to cover everything, but worthwhile to respond to the best of my ability.

You are correct in assuming my strong faith and that my values here are rooted in that faith. to that note, the contradiction noted is their mostly because of my faith. To explain, I am interested in the academics related to freedom, my values will not change as my faith will not change. I avoided such strait forward wording to prevent this from becoming a largely theological argument. So I acknowledge the contradiction.

As far as always having freedom, I suppose I could understand that thought. Although given my history growing up in a very affluent family, I cannot remember a time when growing up that my time wasn't entirely scripted by someone else. My parents had an entire staff hired to keep nearly every hour of my day was scheduled. In which case the only true 'freedom' growing up was the times I would have with my personal slave, largely getting in the kind of trouble juveniles are prone to. But at the end of it all I was happy and felt that is what mattered. Not that I'm comparing my life in wealth to that of a slave, but rather freedom not being a prerequisite to being happy. (as a special note, although slavery is definatly related to this thread, it is not the subject. Freedom as a concept is.)

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
So, quite a bit to cover in my absence. I obviously wont be able to cover everything, but worthwhile to respond to the best of my ability.

You are correct in assuming my strong faith and that my values here are rooted in that faith. to that note, the contradiction noted is their mostly because of my faith. To explain, I am interested in the academics related to freedom, my values will not change as my faith will not change. I avoided such strait forward wording to prevent this from becoming a largely theological argument. So I acknowledge the contradiction.

As far as always having freedom, I suppose I could understand that thought. Although given my history growing up in a very affluent family, I cannot remember a time when growing up that my time wasn't entirely scripted by someone else. My parents had an entire staff hired to keep nearly every hour of my day was scheduled. In which case the only true 'freedom' growing up was the times I would have with my personal slave, largely getting in the kind of trouble juveniles are prone to. But at the end of it all I was happy and felt that is what mattered. Not that I'm comparing my life in wealth to that of a slave, but rather freedom not being a prerequisite to being happy. (as a special note, although slavery is definatly related to this thread, it is not the subject. Freedom as a concept is.)


This sort of introspection will serve you well, lass. Here's to hoping you find the answers you're seeking. I have somethings to say about freedom, but they don't seem to relate much to what you're seeking.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:40:00 - [13]
 

The real value of freedom is life.
Because true freedom is death.

If you want freedom, that is not death, you just want more power and call it 'freedom'.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim
The real value of freedom is life.
Because true freedom is death.

If you want freedom, that is not death, you just want more power and call it 'freedom'.


Huh?


Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:00:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim
The real value of freedom is life.
Because true freedom is death.

If you want freedom, that is not death, you just want more power and call it 'freedom'.


Going to have to second the notion of Jason above on this one, lassie.

Death sure ain't freedom from where I'm standing, 'less of course you're trying to suggest that in death we become free to live in the after. Which, as you stated in another topic, that be a belief and cannot be proven or disproven, savvy?

Subsequently, I may be suggesting that the value of freedom is relative to the individual.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Originally by: Diana Kim
The real value of freedom is life.
Because true freedom is death.

If you want freedom, that is not death, you just want more power and call it 'freedom'.


Going to have to second the notion of Jason above on this one, lassie.

Death sure ain't freedom from where I'm standing, 'less of course you're trying to suggest that in death we become free to live in the after. Which, as you stated in another topic, that be a belief and cannot be proven or disproven, savvy?

Subsequently, I may be suggesting that the value of freedom is relative to the individual.


What should it do with beliefs?
While you have something, you have limits, and when you have limits, you are not free.
You have duty, you have beliefs, you have property, at last you have body that dictates you what you have to do.
To become absolutely free, you must get rid of everything, including your body.

As I stated above, when you want freedom, but don't want to die, you just want more POWER.

There can be lesser freedoms, for example, freedom from reading <censored> in IGS, but in this case you must state freedom from what you bear in mind.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:44:00 - [17]
 

There's a difference between freedom and capability, and between subjugation/oppression (insert freedom-hindering noun here) and limits, love.

You can be free to explore your limits, for example.
You can be capable of oppressing another.

Being bound by limitations is not the same as being denied freedom, savvy?

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.27 02:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim

While you have something, you have limits


Found it.

This is simply not true. If you can prove to me that this is true, I will believe it.


Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.28 06:53:00 - [19]
 

I'm not sure that's relevant to the subject matter. The concept that death is freedom is an interesting one, but I would say misguided, although I'm not interested in a discussion on the theology of it right now. Either way it doesn't provide a basis of why freedom has any value at all, and I still don't understand why its worth fighting for.

As I said earlier, the concept of the value of freedom is completely lost to me. It would be nice to hear something better and more concise than 'freedom is good because it is.' That just makes no sense.

Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.08.28 08:42:00 - [20]
 

Hmm. Alright. How could I put this...

Two young geese, seperated from their mother, wandered north through a forest. For some time, they wanted for food, finding the earth to be barren, and the grass to to be sparse and short. And worse yet, foxes and wolves wandered between the trees, threatening to, at any moment, take them for a meal. One day, however, they came across a farmers home, and a luscious green field, where his animals were kept (and all of them plump and healthy, beyond mistaking), behind a barbed fence.

The first goose turned to the second goose, and said - with great rejoicing - "We have found salvation at last! Behind that fence, we will be cared for and kept safe, and given all the food we will ever need. And we shall be washed and made beautiful for all those who would look upon us. Our troubles are at an end."

Yet, the second goose hesitated, and did not wish to enter the farm. The first goose tried to persuade her, but try as she might, her sister would not see reason, and refused to follow her, instead turning back towards the dark woods. Dejected and saddened but undeterred, the first goose headed northwards to the farm, where she was found and taken in by the farmer, and put amongst his livestock. The second goose went south once more.

For years and years, the first goose lived at the farm. She was given rich bread and grain to feed on, and a pond to swim in amongst the other birds. Occasionally, the farmer asked for an egg, or perhaps a few feathers from her, but the demands were never so great that she felt her dignity had been taken. The years passed, and she grew fat, plump, and content.

But as they did, so did the wired fence seem to grow ever higher. She began to think of what might lie beyond, further to the north, or perhaps to the east or west, and thought of what it would be like to travel there. Her wings had been clipped by the farmer, of course, and her breast had grown too fat for her to walk far without tiring, so it remained within the realms of fantasy. The years passed. She became tired and old, no longer gave the farmer eggs, but merciful as he was, he kept her safe and fed still. She was yet... Content.

But one evening, the farmers house caught fire. It spread quickly, burning him in his home, and sending the animals running through the fence, their flesh snapping against the wires even as it fell. Though tired, fear overcame the first goose, and she fled along with them. She headed north, further into the fields. She knew that she would die here, and she had forgotten how to flee from the foxes and find good grass, but she did not mind. She had lived long enough.

It was out there, however, that she met her sister, in the north - though she had gone south. Her sister had grown old, too, but in different ways. She was thin and ragged, scarred - from a thousand battles - and sharp-eyed. She too, was dying, herself aged and withered.

Remembering her and what had transpired, the first goose asked: "Why did you not follow me to the farm? Why did you head back, to the south?"

Her sister replied, with happiness in her eyes, "So that, though I lived in the south, there was never a time I could not return north."

Alternatively, a more pessimistic anwser, if you're looking for one: Pride.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.28 08:58:00 - [21]
 

I suppose that's a more cohesive answer than most. I can understand the Idea of pride a little bit better, since that is a bit more tangible to me. Although i know you didn't intend to liken it in this way, pride is a deadly sin. Since I often see peoples idea of freedom the ability to harm themselves, it would support this idea... but again I understand not exactly what you meant.

still, more sensible than death = freedom.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.08.29 02:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Nakal Ashera
Hmm. Alright. How could I put this...

Two young geese, seperated from their mother, wandered north through a forest. For some time, they wanted for food, finding the earth to be barren, and the grass to to be sparse and short. And worse yet, foxes and wolves wandered between the trees, threatening to, at any moment, take them for a meal. One day, however, they came across a farmers home, and a luscious green field, where his animals were kept (and all of them plump and healthy, beyond mistaking), behind a barbed fence.

The first goose turned to the second goose, and said - with great rejoicing - "We have found salvation at last! Behind that fence, we will be cared for and kept safe, and given all the food we will ever need. And we shall be washed and made beautiful for all those who would look upon us. Our troubles are at an end."

Yet, the second goose hesitated, and did not wish to enter the farm. The first goose tried to persuade her, but try as she might, her sister would not see reason, and refused to follow her, instead turning back towards the dark woods. Dejected and saddened but undeterred, the first goose headed northwards to the farm, where she was found and taken in by the farmer, and put amongst his livestock. The second goose went south once more.

For years and years, the first goose lived at the farm. She was given rich bread and grain to feed on, and a pond to swim in amongst the other birds. Occasionally, the farmer asked for an egg, or perhaps a few feathers from her, but the demands were never so great that she felt her dignity had been taken. The years passed, and she grew fat, plump, and content.

But as they did, so did the wired fence seem to grow ever higher. She began to think of what might lie beyond, further to the north, or perhaps to the east or west, and thought of what it would be like to travel there. Her wings had been clipped by the farmer, of course, and her breast had grown too fat for her to walk far without tiring, so it remained within the realms of fantasy. The years passed. She became tired and old, no longer gave the farmer eggs, but merciful as he was, he kept her safe and fed still. She was yet... Content.

But one evening, the farmers house caught fire. It spread quickly, burning him in his home, and sending the animals running through the fence, their flesh snapping against the wires even as it fell. Though tired, fear overcame the first goose, and she fled along with them. She headed north, further into the fields. She knew that she would die here, and she had forgotten how to flee from the foxes and find good grass, but she did not mind. She had lived long enough.

It was out there, however, that she met her sister, in the north - though she had gone south. Her sister had grown old, too, but in different ways. She was thin and ragged, scarred - from a thousand battles - and sharp-eyed. She too, was dying, herself aged and withered.

Remembering her and what had transpired, the first goose asked: "Why did you not follow me to the farm? Why did you head back, to the south?"

Her sister replied, with happiness in her eyes, "So that, though I lived in the south, there was never a time I could not return north."

Alternatively, a more pessimistic anwser, if you're looking for one: Pride.



Exactly this. Thank you.

Cassina Lemour
Minmatar
Staner Industries
Posted - 2011.08.29 08:27:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cassina Lemour on 29/08/2011 08:32:12

Ah, the parable of the Goose, yes we've all heard it before and know the truth. That the farmer hatches a few gosling from the eggs of the captive goose and slaughters it for the winter feast, while the free goose flys south to warmer lands with off-spring.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.29 08:44:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cassina Lemour
Edited by: Cassina Lemour on 29/08/2011 08:32:12

Ah, the parable of the Goose, yes we've all heard it before and know the truth. That the farmer hatches a few gosling from the eggs of the captive goose and slaughters it for the winter feast, while the free goose flys south to warmer lands with off-spring.


I don't know how you see slavery, but I don't make a point to regularly shoot my charges for giggles. For that matter I don't know of any good Amarrian who does either.

Even the most pesimistic view of slavery will have to awknowlege that the health of the slave is important. Sickly (or dead) slaves cannot work. For that matter slaves are not cheap, casually tossing them aside is bad business.

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.29 09:48:00 - [25]
 

This more compassionate view towards slavery that you possess is not any different from animals being forced into hard labor and servitude until death. Even household animals here in the Federation receive more respect.


Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:29:00 - [26]
 

Looksie, sure as I can put it to you, freedom be the ability to choose one's own path and destiny, savvy?

Not having someone dictate it for you or to you. Maybe you'll walk the same path that would have been chosen for you, but the fact you chose it for yourself means you're free. Even in the parable o' the goose above, the difference 'twixt the two was choice. The free goose could choose to go where she wanted, when she wanted, the content one couldn't, see?

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.29 14:20:00 - [27]
 

Dear Ms. Goldcore,

Let me introduce myself. My name is Manwe and I am a Disciple of Ston. You recently posted on my thread discussing stellar core phenomena. Thank you for your interest. I recognized your name as the author of this thread and thought that my perspective on the value of freedom might be helpful. I am a former slave. As a slave, I was not free to study and explore the stellar phenomena we have been talking about. I was not free to to travel from system to system in search of scientific explanations. I was not free to interact with you, or with men and women of other nations and races. I was not free to write about my theories and explanations of phenomena in this universe. I was not free to expand my education to learn of these things and take advantage of my God-given aptitudes and intelligence. Now as a free man, I VALUE all the things I was denied as a SLAVE. I am not just speaking of these things, I am experiencing them.

As a slave, I was not free to explore faith in God. I was told what that faith had to be and that I had to accept it only as a slave of the master race, the Amarr. I was told that only the Amarr were God's chosen and they they would rule the kingdoms of the universe. As a slave, I was denied sincere spirituality. I am now free to love God. This I highly VALUE.

I say these things not because I disrespect you, but out of respect for someone who is willing to broach the subject. However, Ms. Goldcore, you cannot honestly explore this issue and expect that you should not be challenged to free your slaves. You deny them the freedom of exploring all that God has created them to be intellectually, physically, and experientially.

Ms. Goldcore, There was a man in ancient earth legend named Frederick Douglas. Like me, he was a slave that was able to gain his freedom. He became a great orator, something he was not FREE to do as a slave. His oratory inspired many to join the cause of abolition and emancipation. I would like you to consider something he said: No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck. Ms. Goldcore, as long as you hold slaves, you hold yourself in slavery. You are not free as long as you deny freedom to another. I hope that as you learn the value of freedom, you will learn it well enough to see this truth. May God guide you.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.29 14:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Nakal Ashera
Hmm. Alright. How could I put this...

Two young geese, separated from their mother, wandered north through a forest. For some time, they wanted for food, finding the earth to be barren, and the grass to to be sparse and short. And worse yet, foxes and wolves wandered between the trees, threatening to, at any moment, take them for a meal. One day, however, they came across a farmers home, and a luscious green field, where his animals were kept (and all of them plump and healthy, beyond mistaking), behind a barbed fence.

The first goose turned to the second goose, and said - with great rejoicing - "We have found salvation at last! Behind that fence, we will be cared for and kept safe, and given all the food we will ever need. And we shall be washed and made beautiful for all those who would look upon us. Our troubles are at an end."

Yet, the second goose hesitated, and did not wish to enter the farm. The first goose tried to persuade her, but try as she might, her sister would not see reason, and refused to follow her, instead turning back towards the dark woods. Dejected and saddened but undeterred, the first goose headed northwards to the farm, where she was found and taken in by the farmer, and put amongst his livestock. The second goose went south once more.

For years and years, the first goose lived at the farm. She was given rich bread and grain to feed on, and a pond to swim in amongst the other birds. Occasionally, the farmer asked for an egg, or perhaps a few feathers from her, but the demands were never so great that she felt her dignity had been taken. The years passed, and she grew fat, plump, and content.

But as they did, so did the wired fence seem to grow ever higher. She began to think of what might lie beyond, further to the north, or perhaps to the east or west, and thought of what it would be like to travel there. Her wings had been clipped by the farmer, of course, and her breast had grown too fat for her to walk far without tiring, so it remained within the realms of fantasy. The years passed. She became tired and old, no longer gave the farmer eggs, but merciful as he was, he kept her safe and fed still. She was yet... Content.

But one evening, the farmers house caught fire. It spread quickly, burning him in his home, and sending the animals running through the fence, their flesh snapping against the wires even as it fell. Though tired, fear overcame the first goose, and she fled along with them. She headed north, further into the fields. She knew that she would die here, and she had forgotten how to flee from the foxes and find good grass, but she did not mind. She had lived long enough.

It was out there, however, that she met her sister, in the north - though she had gone south. Her sister had grown old, too, but in different ways. She was thin and ragged, scarred - from a thousand battles - and sharp-eyed. She too, was dying, herself aged and withered.

Remembering her and what had transpired, the first goose asked: "Why did you not follow me to the farm? Why did you head back, to the south?"

Her sister replied, with happiness in her eyes, "So that, though I lived in the south, there was never a time I could not return north."

Alternatively, a more pessimistic answer, if you're looking for one: Pride.



Exactly this. Thank you.


I think the major point has been missed here as to the core of the issue at hand.

Just amuse me for a moment and believe that my faith is the correct one. A vast universe crafted by a stern but just God. One who asks proof of our loyalty in our day to day lives. He promises us no happiness in this life but in the next should we live for Him.

How then can it stand to reason that freedom means anything if in this life its sole purpose is to serve to earn it in the next life?

That is why we Amarrians have slavery because it is only by suffering to do we stand a chance to even exist in the almighty presence of God.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:17:00 - [29]
 

Your argument would hold more weight if you were the one in shackles, Kithrus. You know not of this type of suffering because you have never experienced it, you inflict it upon others.


Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.29 16:09:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 29/08/2011 16:12:12
Originally by: Kithrus


I think the major point has been missed here as to the core of the issue at hand.

Just amuse me for a moment and believe that my faith is the correct one. A vast universe crafted by a stern but just God. One who asks proof of our loyalty in our day to day lives. He promises us no happiness in this life but in the next should we live for Him.

How then can it stand to reason that freedom means anything if in this life its sole purpose is to serve to earn it in the next life?

That is why we Amarrians have slavery because it is only by suffering to do we stand a chance to even exist in the almighty presence of God.


See, this be where the problem comes in. A "just" god wouldn't favor one group of people o'er the next, savvy?

A "just" god would grant unto others the merits o' their deeds, be they ill or well, and punish or praise accordingly. The Amarr teach, based on their scriptures, that their god chose once that the Amarr were righteous and therefore elevated them above the rest for all eternity. No matter how righteously a person lives henceforth, if they nay be Amarr, they nay be righteous 'fore your god. That nay be just, that be partial.

Slavery nay be the only way to bring people 'fore your god, savvy? 'Sides, if you really believe that only through suffering can we see your god, I don't want to have anything to do with him.

'Course, you could also go 'bout putting yourselves in chains, slitting your wrists and maiming yourselves to prove to your god that ye be loyal to him. Me onesie? I'll go 'bout enjoyin' the life been given to me and deal with your god when I meet him.


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