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Snot Shot
Minmatar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:37:00 - [181]
 

I will take anyones mom if you don't want her...Neutral
.

Justyce Stargazer
Amarr
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.26 20:41:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Snot Shot
I will take anyones mom if you don't want her...Neutral
.


Im sorry but snot shot cannot have the last word in any thread.....just saying.YARRRR!!

Anyways, an SC nerf is needed and most sane people can see that. Someone mentioned earlier defender missiles. How about coming out with another T2 variant of your standard destroyer that specializes in taking drones, fighters and fighter-bombers out? Give it a decent tank for it's size and allow it to decimate a supercarriers drones with bonuses that ONLY apply to killing drones, fighters and FB's . Not only would you give the sub-cap fleets a chance at taking down SC's, you would also give a boost to the lagging destroyer whose only real role in null sec atm is as an interdictor.

The only other viable option is a boost to the dread which also needs to happen.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:52:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Justyce Stargazer

Anyways, an SC nerf is needed and most sane people can see that.


Most sane people can also see that battleships are over powered in large groups.

Nerf battlehips


Then nerf large groups.


Then you can nerf BC's because obviously anything that can kill an overpowered ship (Hurricanes killed a Nyx and nearly an Avatar in the middle of its own supercap fleet 2 nights ago) must be overpowered itself.

Justyce Stargazer
Amarr
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.26 23:16:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Justyce Stargazer

Then nerf large groups.



I think you will find quite a few people arguing for the neutering of child bearing people in PL. Be careful what you ask for..... Rolling Eyes

McKinlay
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.27 01:31:00 - [185]
 

It was only a Hel Embarassed

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.27 02:06:00 - [186]
 

Seriously, is a nerf needed at all?

Effective counters to them are large BS fleets as well as decent counter SC fleet. You could say it is the smaller alliances main weapon again big alliance numbers.

MM decided not to defend their space and lost it.

If SCs are nerfed, how long will it be before people demand titans to be nerfed?

Kalissa
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:46:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Kalissa on 27/08/2011 07:53:38
I'll start off this by saying I own and fly both a SC and a Titan so it's not like I'm suggesting something that won't affect me.

Ok, lets face facts the CCP patch for the winter isn't gonna be good news for Titans/Supercarriers. I've read the thread so far and most of the arguements against the change are coming from the side that stands to lose the most and also predictably the people who are losing out have the opposite view.

Lets not be naive about this, if the situation was reversed then viewpoints from individuals would probably change.

But the current state of the game can't continue, when you have a powerbloc that can field collectively what the DRF can right now it's not good for the game, no-one is gonna fight those kinda odds. When the NC saw what the DRF had when they attacked they did the only sane thing someone could in that situation and decided not to fight. This isn't good for anyone, it's horrible for supercap pilots who can't get to use them for fear of being nuked by 25 DD's at once and it can't be too much more fun for the other guys who form up a big fleet but never ever get the fight they crave.

Powerbloc's have formed in the past and CCP haven't had to make changes, but the present one is highlighting a fact that shows CCP never envisioned just how prolific they would become when they released them (or they'd have made them a damn sight harder/costlier to manufacture)

The problem with Titans/SC's as I see it right now is they're the jack of all trades that don't really require a decent support fleet in any given situation if you have enough of them.

I'd make the following changes to even things out a bit :

1) Make DD's once an hour like they used to be and also only useable on capital class vessels. (no more DD'ing logistic ships!)
2) Remove the ability for SC's to remote rep.
3) Remove the ability for SC's to use anything but fighter bombers, since FB's are only good for capitals/structures then it would mean SC's would need a decent subcap/carrier fleet with them or face getting into trouble. It would also give a much needed role for people in carriers who I imagine feel a little left out with the current state of affairs.

I think the changes would make Supers in general still very powerful but also not a weapon that could be weilded on the battlefield with as much impunity as they are now.

The general consensus from what I'm hearing that the winter patch will see a buff to Dreadnaughts which frankly I think it well overdue and that also some kind of spool up timer for anything with a jump drive will be introduced apparently based on ship size and the distance to be jumped (so no more hotdropping with a cyno in Kestrel!)

P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:00:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: White Tree
This thread is hurt feelings grounds zero and it's hilarious.


When I got this far in the tread I was thinking the same exact thing. It makes coming to the forums worth it again!!!

Shuriath
Caldari
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:04:00 - [189]
 

I Say all we need to do is get DRF WN Xdeath NC. and co to stop sleeping together. if they break up all will be right in the world, no children will starve, summer wont be so hot and winter wont be so cold... I think its the right thing to do.


P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:07:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: P42ALPHA on 27/08/2011 08:11:00

Misanth
Amarr
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Limitless Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.27 12:16:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Misanth on 27/08/2011 12:16:55
Originally by: Kalissa
3) Remove the ability for SC's to use anything but fighter bombers, since FB's are only good for capitals/structures then it would mean SC's would need a decent subcap/carrier fleet with them or face getting into trouble. It would also give a much needed role for people in carriers who I imagine feel a little left out with the current state of affairs.


The other way around. Let them purely field regular drones and Fighters, like they used to. The damage would be below dreads again, with the hp boost they needed. If you put a FB/Fighter only bay on those things they'll only be used as anti-capital or vs structures. That's the dread role, and that's perfectly illustrating what went wrong with the mothership changes.

CCPs idea of 'giving an incentitive to put supers on the field' was just wrong. They didn't need damage. They needed survivability. They will still need survivability, but they don't need damage.

Take away damage capabilities (other than some weak self-defence, i.e. drone bay on both of them) and you have viable supers again.

methodmo
Caldari
Free Lapland
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:11:00 - [192]
 

no more then 4 cs or 2 titans per system...fairly simple let the cyno have a built in counter that let ppl jump by mass of their ship(add parameter to cynofields counts only for cs or titans)...if say titan nr 3 or cs nr 5 wants to jump thrue he/she is denied,at the same time every system(can be done by adding a parameter to systems)will automaticly set the counter at 2 titan arrivals or 4 cs arrivals so there is no cheating by using multiple cyno's,its a pretty simple solution and ships stay unchanged...everybody happy...

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.27 21:31:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: methodmo
no more then 4 cs or 2 titans per system...fairly simple let the cyno have a built in counter that let ppl jump by mass of their ship(add parameter to cynofields counts only for cs or titans)...if say titan nr 3 or cs nr 5 wants to jump thrue he/she is denied,at the same time every system(can be done by adding a parameter to systems)will automaticly set the counter at 2 titan arrivals or 4 cs arrivals so there is no cheating by using multiple cyno's,its a pretty simple solution and ships stay unchanged...everybody happy...


Does that count logged out ships? How can the system tell if they're not there?

Ladie Scarlet
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.28 06:10:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Justyce Stargazer

Anyways, an SC nerf is needed and most sane people can see that.


Most sane people can also see that battleships are over powered in large groups.

Nerf battlehips


Then nerf large groups.


Then you can nerf BC's because obviously anything that can kill an overpowered ship (Hurricanes killed a Nyx and nearly an Avatar in the middle of its own supercap fleet 2 nights ago) must be overpowered itself.

Nerf anything that gives PL a hard time.

General Altathamus
Amarr
Templars of Space
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2011.08.28 06:12:00 - [195]
 

nerf blobs, bring solo/small gang pvp back

Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.28 07:00:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: General Altathamus
nerf blobs, bring solo/small gang pvp back


This would be more directed at a fix for lowsec and npc null to encourage more people to live there.

Sov warfare will always be about large fleets and capital fights, the issue at stake is that titans and SCs are soo powerful currently that they barely even need the support of subcaps and carriers/dreads and there is now a huge number of them (far more than CCP was probably imagining would be built).

I remember my first big nullsec fight (BDV3-T siege), just on grid at the outpost was over 40 titans and over 100 supercarriers with about 200 more carriers/dreads in support, with only a small number of subcaps with them (the subcap support was mainly just dics/hics and ewar). This was only about half the supers/capitals that PL and friends had dropped into the system for the fight, the rest were killing poses. A supercap fleet of that size is uncounterable except by bringing a bigger blob of supercaps (and then your going from bad lag to dead node ala 020).

The main thing is that supers need to be less effective against subcaps. A supercap fleet should require significant subcap and carrier/dread support

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:56:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Theodoric Darkwind
This was only about half the supers/capitals that PL and friends had dropped into the system for the fight, the rest were killing poses.


What, dude I don't even think we've ever brought supers to 6VDT, even back when we owned it.

Originally by: Theodoric Darkwind
A supercap fleet should require significant subcap and carrier/dread support


Says who and why should they?

methodmo
Caldari
Free Lapland
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:20:00 - [198]
 

Quote:
Does that count logged out ships? How can the system tell if they're not there?


simple the counter stays at the arrival number if the ship logs of since they dont arrive anywhere else they could add the parameter spawn for ship jumping out,if it didnt jump out its in system.when a ship jumps out it gives automaticly a signal departure.logging of wont give that sign so ship must still be there preventing cheating on that. its easy to add/write such a code,and its a win win for everyone,no more supercap blobs and ships are unchanged giving carriers/dreads/supcapfleets their role back so everyone can play normal again :)

Metal Dude
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:03:00 - [199]
 

FFS. you ******s along with CCP keep missing the fkn point. IT DON'T MATTER WHAT SHIP YOU BRING, WHOMEVER HAS MORE OF THOSE SHIPS WILL WIN!!! If it's not Titans, than it's SCs, than it's Dreads, Carriers, BS, BC, Frigs... The problem is fkn NAPs/Blobs, not the ships.


Thorian Baalnorn
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:10:00 - [200]
 

Their have several suggested fixes for the super cap problem. Some of which i have suggested including making a black ops class of ships(Frig,CR, BC, and BS) that are (super) capital hunters, as well giving the dread a mini DD that does about 625k damage every 5 min in siege but it scales to size based (only) on sig rad. With a sig rad of 10k being the 100% damage threshold then scaling down from there based on the targets sig rad. A normal cap would receive about 30% damage or so from the mini DD and a BS would receive about 3-7% depending on setup. I think the mini DD would be a great boost to dreads and also give other alliances that arent super cap heavy at least better odds. You can see my changes to dreads and the creation of the black ops class, including ewar and tackle that is effective against supers, here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1570113

Another option is to make fighters and fighter bombers only able too target caps, supercaps and structures. Furthermore, give carriers and super carriers a normal drone bay( like 2500 m3 for carriers and 5000 m3 for SCs) and make them stick to the 5 drones max( gobs of fighters and FBs could still be launched just like now) . I hear a lot of tears hitting the floor with that one because OMG I HAVE TO RUN SANCTUMS IN A......A......A..... BATTLESHIP!!!!!!!!Crying or Very sad On top of this limit the Titans DD to caps and supers.

Regardless of how you look at the situation. It is severely out of balance as it is. And suggested counters would require at least a 10:1 ( BS:SC for example) ratio to even be remotely effective. The supers were not designed to be an entire fleet. They were designed to lead fleets and be supported by caps and sub caps. And the only counter for a 200 SC fleet is a **** ton of non supers on other side or an equal SC fleet. Or you can always run away and give up the space. Why throw money away on a battle you know your going to lose? I believe its called a strategic withdraw. With the way things are i cannot see how people on either side are having any fun with these lopsided fights. Sure its great for the lols.. for a while. But then it gets old when their is no one left to fight and people stop playing because the game is boring. Then the people getting their LOLs are bored and leave too after ruining the game for everyone else and themselves...

..... That is the ultimate fail cascade and the demise of most MMOs. A group takes advantage of a game mechanic that isnt working properly as intended, uses it to their advantage to rule the game before the devs can get it fixed so they can say " IWON(insert MMO)" . Everyone not taking advantage quits, the ones taking advantage get bored and quit and move to the next MMO. Rinse and Repeat.

I do know this if CCP waits till the winter patch to fix this problem they are probably going to lose another 10% of their player base by then.


Taram Caldar
Caldari
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:36:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 28/08/2011 20:50:41

Actually I don't think things are all that broken. A few things need to be toned down and a few things need to be tweaked but overall it shouldn't be necessary to nerf anything to uselessness nor to introduce yet more broken ships to the game. A moderate rebalancing is the best bet and it's fairly easy to do.

My proposal to 'fix' super carriers:
1) Remove the immunity to EWAR, allow them to be tackled/jammed/etc.
2) Remove fighter-bomber's ability to target structures or sub-caps. Make them the anti-capital ship they were intended to be. They can still use standard fighters like any other carrier so it's not like this cripples them against sub-caps, just tones them down a bit.
3) Reduce tank on super carriers to max out at about 35-40 million EHP. Right now the Aeon is extremely broken and can have well over 100 million EHP. Seriously... it's got a better tank than a large tower.

To fix Titans:
1) Remove ability to use the DD on anything but capital class vessels.
2) Retain immunity to EWAR but make it vulnerable to ewar from a sieged dread or from tower modules.

Buffs to 'normal' caps:
Dreads:
1) Add a bonus to Dreadnaughts so that when sieged their webs/scrams/warp disruptors can affect Titans.
2) Reduce siege cycle time from 10 minutes to 5 minutes, cut siege fuel cost by 50%.
3) Remove inability for other ships to rep dreads while in siege.

Carriers:
No changes necessary. They are fine as they are.

Buffs to towers:
Adjust tower ewar modules so that they can affect all ships, including titans. Someone shouldn't be able to jump their titan to a hostile tower, deliberately, and get free ganks on ships at the tower without risking being tackled by the tower.

The above changes will:
1) Not overly 'nerf' supercaps but remove their absolute 'i win' potential due to making it easier to catch them in fights. It also balances some of the more insane tanks possible currently. Also removes them as an anti-conventional force, which they never should have been.
2) Give a role back to dreadnaughts by giving them an added role: Titan tackler
3) Make dreads less of a 'suicide ship' by reducing siege cycle time and allowing them to be remotely repaired while in siege.
4) Make it so folks can't just drop a couple super caps on a tower and strip it of defenses with impunity before the owners can reasonably respond.
5) Removes the 'I'll just hot drop anything that jumps to this tower with my super and get free kills' button.
6) Forces super cap blobs to have a support fleet capable of countering an enemy sub-cap fleet. If they go in alone with these changes in place a strong AHAC/BC fleet with logi support could wreck absolute havoc upon them.

Carai an'Caldazar
Amarr
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:14:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 28/08/2011 20:50:41
The above changes will:
1) Not overly 'nerf' supercaps but remove their absolute 'i win' potential due to making it easier to catch them in fights. It also balances some of the more insane tanks possible currently. Also removes them as an anti-conventional force, which they never should have been.
2) Give a role back to dreadnaughts by giving them an added role: Titan tackler
3) Make dreads less of a 'suicide ship' by reducing siege cycle time and allowing them to be remotely repaired while in siege.
4) Make it so folks can't just drop a couple super caps on a tower and strip it of defenses with impunity before the owners can reasonably respond.
5) Removes the 'I'll just hot drop anything that jumps to this tower with my super and get free kills' button.
6) Forces super cap blobs to have a support fleet capable of countering an enemy sub-cap fleet. If they go in alone with these changes in place a strong AHAC/BC fleet with logi support could wreck absolute havoc upon them.


Lots of interesting ideas here, though the one that seems not fully thought through is the Sieged (and stationary) Dreadnoughts being Titan tacklers. Dreadnoughts already have severe tracking issues of Supercaps moving, and having to have Dreadnoughts chasing and/or dropping siege every 5 km just to keep a Titan tackled just seems silly.

I like the idea about removing DD's against subcaps, kinda... for instance, the kill of the MC titan in 49- years ago never would have happened if an Interdictor couldn't tank the DD. It'd be nice to see DD's scale with sig radius, still being an instant kill for the unprepared, but allowing most ship types the chance to tank a shot (assuming properly fit of course). Then again, do we want to reintroduce DD-fits?

Regarding spider tanking Dreadnoughts using Triaged carriers... I'm not sure this would have the effect that you are looking for. It would increase capital blobs for instance against subcaps and towers, but likely do nothing against Supercaps (DD's) and cause more problems than it solves. There are many ways Dreadnoughts can be given a role that fixes their issues, rather than working around them (and leaving aspects of them fundamentally broken) as proposed here. As long as they can be 1-shot from Titans, stuck in siege for 10 minutes (or 5 as suggested) once deployed, can be speed tanked by their preferred target type, and have sub-par DPS to a Supercap deployed on the field... they will remain effectively useless for nullsec sovereignty warfare beyond flying only while no chance of opposition will occur. They need to either be the end-all-be-all of Structure killers, or be given some bite as well as survivability when it comes to fleet warfare to get their edge back. If Dreadnoughts are to be the counter to Super Capital blobs... you can't be losing 40x Dreadnoughts every time the DD's cycle timer is up.

Halleos
Amarr
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:06:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Halleos on 28/08/2011 22:06:45
Sounds like they need to Nerf everything and buff everything at the same time Rolling Eyes. Atleast thats the signal im getting from every post in this thread.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:26:00 - [204]
 

Haha CCPsa just trollin, they aint gonna change diddly Very Happy

SunburnedFrog
Caldari
Capital Systems INC
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:47:00 - [205]
 

personally i own 3 supercaps

im happy with the nerf your all just mad because your alliances fail

i mean my super carriers kill npcs just fine and my titan well it just sits in a pos bridging my miners left right and centre.

dont you all feel a little bit silly moaning about a perfectly good class of ship ???

Snot Shot
Minmatar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:58:00 - [206]
 


Buff Dreads and the problem is solved....YARRRR!!
.

Samathiaa
Amarr
Phantom Squad
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.28 23:15:00 - [207]
 

I will say somthing even tho no one will read it. Embarassed

when lag in 0.0 fights is so bad that your gun cycle once every 10mins and that DDs are the only thing working and u have 40 **** on the field. every 10mins 40 more ships die.

Remove DD titans have guns...
and nerf Scariers HP by 30% and remove remote ecm.


my 2c.

Thorian Baalnorn
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.28 23:36:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 28/08/2011 20:50:41


My proposal to 'fix' super carriers:
1) Remove the immunity to EWAR, allow them to be tackled/jammed/etc.
2) Remove fighter-bomber's ability to target structures or sub-caps. Make them the anti-capital ship they were intended to be. They can still use standard fighters like any other carrier so it's not like this cripples them against sub-caps, just tones them down a bit.
3) Reduce tank on super carriers to max out at about 35-40 million EHP. Right now the Aeon is extremely broken and can have well over 100 million EHP. Seriously... it's got a better tank than a large tower.




2- ehh, im still undecided it i think FBs should be able to attack structures.
1/3- This would nearly make SCs worthless as a combination. On cost, i can buy 20 plus faction towers for what it cost for one super. And if i pimp it out your looking at 50 or so faction towers. Towers really arent a good comparison as they provide two completely different functions in the game.

Quote:
Other stuff


* What dreads need is a more defined role than sieging structures. they should be at least semi useful in cap fights and not just easy targets. Especially with sov warfare changes. Dreads will become even less important as sov mechanics change so we are sitting around bashing structures all day and waiting on timers, etc. The sad part is a dread puts out about as much dps out of siege as a normal BS. Just an overpriced BS out of siege and siege is not really useful on the battlefield if your target moves.

* Titans should of never been able to hit anything that moves with a focused fire weapon.

Quote:
1) Not overly 'nerf' supercaps but remove their absolute 'i win' potential due to making it easier to catch them in fights. It also balances some of the more insane tanks possible currently. Also removes them as an anti-conventional force, which they never should have been.
- I think your nerf to super carriers , nerfs them more than you realize.

Quote:
2) Give a role back to dreadnaughts by giving them an added role: Titan tackler
- tackling isnt really that large of an issue. A dread is going to be a prime target for both fighter bombers and DD , not to mention it moves about as fast as a horse with 2 broken legs. Not really what you want to be tackle. I doubt many would really use this feature unless you gave it a ridiculous range like 75 KM or more.

Quote:
3) Make dreads less of a 'suicide ship' by reducing siege cycle time and allowing them to be remotely repaired while in siege.
I rather see one or the other but not both.

Quote:
4) Make it so folks can't just drop a couple super caps on a tower and strip it of defenses with impunity before the owners can reasonably respond.
I agree with this and that no ship should be immune to tower ewar.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:48:00 - [209]
 

Remove fighter bombers, leaving just fighters. Make them escort Dreads (as they are currently) for Sov warfare

easy.

Ivoryman
Gallente
Silent Service Operations
Blanket Men
Posted - 2011.08.29 02:35:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Metal Dude
FFS. you ******s along with CCP keep missing the fkn point. IT DON'T MATTER WHAT SHIP YOU BRING, WHOMEVER HAS MORE OF THOSE SHIPS WILL WIN!!! If it's not Titans, than it's SCs, than it's Dreads, Carriers, BS, BC, Frigs... The problem is fkn NAPs/Blobs, not the ships.




This. The problem started when alliances were implemented, and the number of standings an alliance could have were near unlimited. Limit the number of standings an alliance/corporation can have. If your overview fills up with neutrals you will not spend the time to check each before firing. Break up the napfest, make warfare more localized to your space and not a napfest blob that can roam the universe and do what a few players desire influence-wise.

Do not change any ship at all tbh.


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