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Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:05:00 - [1]
 

Good afternoon, everyone. Some of you already know me, but in the case that you don't, allow me a quick introduction. My name is Nakal Ashera, I'm a capsuleer (obviously) and - as I suppose is relevant to this topic - amateur writer. Of fiction, I should add. I probably couldn't write an extensive essay or thesis to save my own life, unlike a large number of people here.

Anyway, I have a request for all of you, if you could spare a few minutes of your time. I'm writing a short story on the subject of cloning. However, I find myself stumbling over some of the details, as well as the story lacking a more in-depth, believable touch. Though obviously I encounter it on a occasional basis by simple virtue of my own profession, I must confess that my experience is quite limited, due to personal paranoia and my memory being very vague on such occasions. Thus, being in the priveleged position I am and able to do so, I would like to ask you about all of your own personal experiences regarding being cloned, time spent in cloning bays, experiences with cloning branches of businesses, as well as your preferences and thoughts on the subject as a whole. If you'd be willing to oblige, it would help me a great deal in getting a better overall perspective.

Anything would help, really.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:19:00 - [2]
 

To be honest, the cloning aspect of becoming a capsuleer is what gave me the most pause. I've only recently graduated, myself.

When I was informed that I was going to be putting my body into storage and have my consciousness transferred to a clone as part of my graduation, I was a bit leery, to put it mildly. Being put into a cloning bay, having the ectoplasm and other fluids fill up around you while you breathe from a respirator, knowing you are about to essentially commit mental suicide is something of a surreal experience.

It's, of course, only emphasized when you wake up moments later, in a similar clone bay, breathing from a respirator with eyes unaccustomed to the light and muscles not happy to suddenly be finding use. When you glance over and see the body you've lived in your whole life laying effectively in a vegetative state beside you, I begin to wonder if that feeling is something like death?

I've yet to experience the process of being cloned a second time, but I imagine it would take me some time to get accustomed to.

On a side note, if you want to meet up and talk a bit more about it, I'm usually pretty available for drinks, food and conversation.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:31:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
To be honest, the cloning aspect of becoming a capsuleer is what gave me the most pause. I've only recently graduated, myself.

When I was informed that I was going to be putting my body into storage and have my consciousness transferred to a clone as part of my graduation, I was a bit leery, to put it mildly. Being put into a cloning bay, having the ectoplasm and other fluids fill up around you while you breathe from a respirator, knowing you are about to essentially commit mental suicide is something of a surreal experience.

It's, of course, only emphasized when you wake up moments later, in a similar clone bay, breathing from a respirator with eyes unaccustomed to the light and muscles not happy to suddenly be finding use. When you glance over and see the body you've lived in your whole life laying effectively in a vegetative state beside you, I begin to wonder if that feeling is something like death?

I've yet to experience the process of being cloned a second time, but I imagine it would take me some time to get accustomed to.

On a side note, if you want to meet up and talk a bit more about it, I'm usually pretty available for drinks, food and conversation.


The attachment that we have to our original physical bodies begins to slowly fade once our new lives as capsuleers sets in. While no longer considered a new capsuleer, I've had about 4 months of experience in a pod, and been cloned, still, less than a dozen times, so I can speak for an 'intermediate' group. As you get accustomed to your new clone, the attachment becomes nonexistent and cloning becomes tedious and routine.


Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:37:00 - [4]
 

Well, the cloning is interesting topic indeed. Shame to admit, but it was the only thing I was really scared about when I was suggested to become a capsuleer. We all are afraid a bit of different things, some afraid of being late, some afraid of losing thing, of getting hurt, of insects, of small animals, or even of death. And the only thing I was really afraid of, afraid like almost panicking about, was losing my soul. I thought that my soul will die with my first body and only my memories will be copied, making next bodies just puppets without 'me'. You know, how my mentor convinced me to join the program? He said: "Just do not die".

But you know what? I died. And not just once. And I am still myself, I have my soul, I can think, I can feel, I live... again.

I know this won't last forever and I don't believe in this 'demigod' propaganda, but I'm not afraid of death, since it is inevitable, and all our life is just a preparation for death. With capsuleer status it will be just a little bit longer preparation.

On the other hand, still deep in my mind, I feel that I am, this clone and my conscience will die together again, and I will brace Eternity, and new Diana will just have new soul. Now I know she will have, because I have, and I afraid no more. Because this clone death can mean release of this soul as well, I shall not deprive it of life mindlessly and when its time will come, I will meet the end with dignity.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:06:00 - [5]
 

When I graduated three years ago, the practice of euthanizing the original body was not common. I've only met one person who underwent that process at that time. So, that is not part of my experience.

When I lost my original body, it was voluntary to some extent. I was stranded in W-space and impatient to get out. I self-destructed my pod.

It wasn't death. It was a brief interruption in the flow of my life, truly. But, I've never been one to place excessive value on the vessel which the mind, the spirit, uses to move about and interact with the world. I was told at one point that I have "innate infomorph psychology".

Nevertheless, when I woke up in the cloning bay, there was a moment of disorientation and fear, as if I had just woken from a night terror. It passed as I began to move and looked down at my new body, replaced by the conviction that this was indeed my body in all the ways that matter and that I was still me.

I should note that I involved myself in the creation of my first clone (and later my jump clone, which I am presently inhabiting), in as far as ensuring that the most detailed scans were taken and examining the end result to confirm that it was perfectly accurate. Clone artificers make the best efforts as a matter of course, in order to please their wealthy and presumably prestigious clients, but I wanted to be absolutely certain of that. Seeing my own inert, empty body--my clone body, that is--was only a little strange for me. I expect that for some people it would be intolerably disturbing. Perhaps it would have been worse if I had not been fascinated by the technology and art surrounding its creation.

Further on the subject of "experiences with cloning branches of businesses", most bays create infertile clones for capsuleers by default. This is a fineprint fact that can be easy to miss. It's also not a universal practice, hence "most bays". When physical data is gathered to create your first clone, reproductive tissues are collected and stored so that that clone, or any future clone, can optionally be made fertile.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 22/08/2011 18:12:04
Originally by: Diana Kim
Well, the cloning is interesting topic indeed. Shame to admit, but it was the only thing I was really scared about when I was suggested to become a capsuleer. We all are afraid a bit of different things, some afraid of being late, some afraid of losing thing, of getting hurt, of insects, of small animals, or even of death. And the only thing I was really afraid of, afraid like almost panicking about, was losing my soul. I thought that my soul will die with my first body and only my memories will be copied, making next bodies just puppets without 'me'.



I think I've heard this somewhere before...

Oh yeah, Theology Council "something-or-other" doctrine...right? Maybe you could send them a detailed report of how that's working out for you, might shine some scientific illumination on their dogma.

EDIT: Not trying to derail this topic. I'm saying that this topic should be sent to the Theology Council, might do some good there.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:45:00 - [7]
 

I also lost my original body in space, on a fool's expedition to see zero sec before understanding the least bit about how such things work. I've since lost many - enough to lose count. I cannot say I ever find it pleasant; on the moment of death there is an instinctive moment of panic that gives me the shakes even in the new body, and of course most of the time you die having just lost a ship, so that temporary death reminds you of those more permanent around you. You do get sort of used to it, however, as in, you learn what sort of reaction to expect. Some people get very few side effects, some are pretty much incapacitated for even days.

Personally, I find that getting really drunk helps.


Catlin Underking
Amarr
Underking Family
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:35:00 - [8]
 

I have never experienced death, so fortunately, I am unable to assist in your gaining knowledge. If you wish to understand the other side of the coin, do let me know.

Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.08.22 22:32:00 - [9]
 

I see. Interesting. If I might pose some more specific inquiries as well as the overall one, I'd be interested in hearing some accounts of of your general experiences upon waking up after being transferred to a clone.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Nakal Ashera
I see. Interesting. If I might pose some more specific inquiries as well as the overall one, I'd be interested in hearing some accounts of of your general experiences upon waking up after being transferred to a clone.


This has only really happened to be once, so not much I can say about it. My reaction to the initial is posted above for you.

However, if you're looking to share more inquiries, we can come to arrangement for conversation, I'm sure.

Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.08.25 00:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Originally by: Nakal Ashera
I see. Interesting. If I might pose some more specific inquiries as well as the overall one, I'd be interested in hearing some accounts of of your general experiences upon waking up after being transferred to a clone.


This has only really happened to be once, so not much I can say about it. My reaction to the initial is posted above for you.

However, if you're looking to share more inquiries, we can come to arrangement for conversation, I'm sure.


Oh, please pardon me, Captain Khross. I must have somehow overlooked your first offer.

I would be happy to meet with you and discuss your experiences sometime. It would be a great help.

Creetalor
Caldari
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.25 09:26:00 - [12]
 

I remember the day I lost my initial body it was 454 Days ago it was a fight out in Geminate when I saw my overview flash red with a Broadsword firing at me and the last thing I remembered was the rupture of the pod with a violent shake and a burning sensation going through my head then there was blackness for what seemed like a eternity. I remembered a jolt then and I opened my eyes in the new body looking out at a white labcoat cladded person. I got released and after a checkup of body functions I was sent to my quarters it was a wierd feeling being in the bald fresh clone modeled after my former self to a degree.
I have to say I still have not fully gotten accustomed to it. I have been podded a few times since then but thankfully not to often.

Saikoyu
Amarr
Rho Dynamics
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:11:00 - [13]
 

I have died far too many times to count, and I would rather not remember most of them. But one of the first deaths I had I can talk about. It was a fight in Amarrian space, a raid against a war target home base, during which I failed to warp out before being scrambled. First my ship and then my pod were destroyed, and for an instant, I could feel the lasers burning through me. I have talked to doctors and experts since, and they say that I could not have felt my death, that I would have already been dead the instant the pod cracked. But I know I awoke screaming in my clone. Which led to problems with breathing, but those were sorted out quickly enough.

That day was also the first and only time I flew again on the same day as my death. Everything was new and sharp, and I spent the entire flight shivering in fear of another death. I have found that every death I have had, I seem to feel it, though I know I should not be able to. Maybe it is my minds way of dealing with going on, or with punishing me for having another life while my crew will not. I only know it happens.

Also, I can not speak to the Amarrian religion, I have not been on speaking terms with it for some time now, but for myself, I have honored the memory of my past clones, just in case I am only a copy of memory and whatever spirit my original body or my clones may have had has passed on. I find it has helped me, so I offer that for what it is worth.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
...Maybe you could send them a detailed report of how that's working out for you, might shine some scientific illumination on their dogma...


Personal feelings and beliefs are incompatible with science.
To represent scientific point of view you must provide experiment with methodology and results, that other scientists can reproduce following by your steps.

When you describe your wolrd view without facts, it's just philosophy, demagogy or usual chatter. To make your hypothesis scientific, you need to place it on a firm basis of obtainable results.

From scientific point of view, I myself can't confirm my beliefs, so far I never met spirits of my ancestors or my former selves, who told me about their feelings.

Some things you can prove or disprove, while in others you can only believe or not believe.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:57:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 26/08/2011 18:57:10
Originally by: Diana Kim
Originally by: Malcolm Khross
...Maybe you could send them a detailed report of how that's working out for you, might shine some scientific illumination on their dogma...


Personal feelings and beliefs are incompatible with science.
To represent scientific point of view you must provide experiment with methodology and results, that other scientists can reproduce following by your steps.

When you describe your wolrd view without facts, it's just philosophy, demagogy or usual chatter. To make your hypothesis scientific, you need to place it on a firm basis of obtainable results.

From scientific point of view, I myself can't confirm my beliefs, so far I never met spirits of my ancestors or my former selves, who told me about their feelings.

Some things you can prove or disprove, while in others you can only believe or not believe.


Fair enough, in the larger scheme sure.

But your own testimony and experiences can be part of a scientific exploration into the topic, no doubt. That was all I was suggesting. Using your information for data, etcetera.

Valkarth Tlakotani
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:20:00 - [16]
 

I have something to add. Another thread somewhere around here describes how clone corporations use various ways of making clones. This is both a way and means for me.
Think of how your clone 'survives' with all memories intact. At the moment of death, your telemetry is relayed to the clone across extreme amounts of space. The principles are seated in quantum mechanics, where the iotas described there can exist in different places at once. This gives us computer and other electronics that can store information in 'n'space or other such esoteric things. If your clone were not immeidately activated your 'infomorph' would be in a black box. Think of that then imagine a body of electronics, more machine than man.
Add the infomorph.
It is said that the best of the ground pounders, soldiers... are cybernetically enhanced.
Add the ability to sense on other wavelengths, add some other small details and you have a cyberknight.
Cloning is but the beginning.
\/

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.08.28 07:12:00 - [17]
 

Physically I have never been too strongly bothered by the cloning process. Natrually I vomit like the best of us but other than the brief stomach pain I recover rather quickly.

Although the most memorable cloning experience was waking up to see a maintenance worker stairing at me. I think we both locked eyes in the same shock as I came too. I haven't been that embarrassed in a long time. Still, lesson learned, don't setup clones out in nulsec at other capsuleer stations... and don't pick fights with Brutor maintence workers while under clone sickness.

Ston Momaki
Caldari
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:29:00 - [18]
 

I have been meaning to reply to this thread for some time, but have put it off. It is a difficult subject. All of the Disciples of Ston have experience frequent pod death. I am no exception. For me the experience is one of grief. The loss of a body, clone or not, is the loss of the vessel of flesh in which our emotions, thoughts, and experiences reside. Every thought, emotion, and experience we have literally changes the physio-chemical nature of that body, even for us capsuleers. I have lost many of these bodies. Cloned to perfection though they may be, they are not the same as the body that was.

As time goes on, I am less and less comfortable with severing infomorph from body. Each time it happens it feels more and more like the death of a friend. This is one reason we started the clone body return service as part of what the Disciples do. I am not so sure that many capsuleers feel as I do. It seems like fewer and fewer have regard for the body anymore.

May your writing go well. Peace to you from the Disciples of Ston.

Marissa Aldeland
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:47:00 - [19]
 

Waking up in a body that is unfamiliar to you, just like an ill-fitting glove, is a disconcerting experience to say the least.

First, there is light filtering through the eyelids.

Thought processes which have been interrupted a fraction of a second ago restart, shortly followed by the disorientation of finding yourself somewhere else.

Then the realization, your old self is gone and drifting as a frozen corpse though space.

Your emotions get a bit scrambled. Ask a scientist and he tells you that your current state of mind isn't just made up by the brain -- it's the hormones flodding your body as well, first and foremost the adrenaline coursing through your veins during the battle.

And since you're waking up in a new one, with said hormones missing, it's quite clear that thought processes are a bit out of whack, especially during the moments your new brain 'boots up', for a lack of a better term.

And it doesn't end here.

There are always the little details that this body you now inhabit is not your old one, regardless how much effort has been done to make the copy as close to the original as possible.

Reflexes are a bit off. Hand-eye coordination takes some days to resettle. You find yourself a bit weaker or stronger than you're used to. That sort of things.

At last you've become comfortable in your new body. You don't refer it as 'it' but being 'you'.

Until the next time.

Shufly
Gallente
TRITANIUM MAFIA
The Ancients.
Posted - 2011.09.03 16:55:00 - [20]
 

Hello, Nakal, it's a pleasure to help in your literary works, and I hope that my own experiences can contribute to your efforts.

For me, I was raised in Fed, with a pretty diverse background of spiritual influences and hard science, leaving me with a mental mindset much mirroring my commonly used weapon systems, errm, hybrids. Too the point, when my training eventually came to the subject of cloning and inevitable death by some space issued catastrophe, I was left with little to reason with.

My mind tells me, the continuity of thought IS the soul, and that a "photograph" of info-morphology, is just that, a "Snapshot", a copy, nothing more, nothing less. The mind that would inhabit a new body for me would no longer be "Me", but some pretender, inheritor, holder of a legacy of my creation.

But my memories told me otherwise, my mother, of the intaki faith/spirituality, told me of the soul and it's mysteries, what we do and don't understand makes the universe what it is, that while science will guide us to where me must go, it is faiths job to help us live when we feel that we cannot.

Since my training 6 years ago, I've died only a few times, each one, a jump clone. My mind, being tossed into these bodies, I would wonder, if the original, IE, ME was just sleeping, dreaming. The doctors said that in that mind, there was terry a thought, a system completely in sleep mode, but I still wonder. To this day, my paranoia will not allow me to use my original body for fear of its loss, it stays at my home station like some macabre idol of my own life's accomplishment. I "inhabit" "it" for cases of recreation, for times when I speak with my family and friends, it brings me comfort, it brings me peace, and maybe some consistency, and appreciation for everything that Ive earned and lost (my fortune, my knowledge, and even my various crews).

Some call me a coward, but I feel that the loss of a cloned body somehow makes me feel more at home with "myself" than my own original body, and yet, it I have some level of personal disgust of my loss of crew in recent years, where the only sacrifice was a "minor" financial investment in a replacement body, compared to their permanent loss at the hands of my own mistake. I hope this helps.


 

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