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blankseplocked Can we fix the freaking blasters please!?
 
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shaved chimp
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:56:00 - [1]
 

They've been broken for years. It shouldn't be too hard to fix these. Just double or triple their range for a start and we'll see how things go from there.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:41:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: shaved chimp
Just double or triple their range for a start and we'll see how things go from there.


Great, so an autocannon clone.
Please put your rubbish in one of the existing hybrid threadnoughts.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:18:00 - [3]
 

again....a hybrid fix has to work with gallente AND caldari to keep game balance.


Across the board range....means caldari are sniping with sr ammo. Caldari 10% range per level the usual hybrd bonus, want to triple a 50% ship bonus, means 150% bonus to range for them. Gallente vs caldari, you will be kited to death.

Nergart
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.22 11:45:00 - [4]
 

well tbh i dont think the problem is with blasters, but more with railguns.
they have the worst tracking and lowest alpha of any of the longrange weapons

keep blasters short range its how they should be, but railguns really need some love to compensate. Currently they have blasters at v short range and railguns at very long range, and nothing really in between.

put it this way if your flying a rokh in a fleet fight ( not unreasonable its a good ship) the fc often requests that be it fitted with either autocannons or artillery

can even argue that the blaster type ships spend all their time getting into range, so would be better with a speed boost.

im just chucking idea about but thats my thaughts on it

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:04:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

Great, so an autocannon clone.
Please put your rubbish in one of the existing hybrid threadnoughts.


Thats the only way to 'fix' blasters, and emphasizes what has been wrong with them all this time. Make them autocannons.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Great, so an autocannon clone.
Please put your rubbish in one of the existing hybrid threadnoughts.


Lol, by your definition I'm sure -any- gun that's worth fitting is an "autocannon clone".

How about being constructive and including an idea that will make them not suck but changes them so you won't think they're an AC clone?

It pretty well accepted as common knowledge that hybrid turrets are garbage.

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:40:00 - [7]
 

- Blasters need +50% current DPS across the board, triple the optimal and 0 fal off (actually 0). If you are in range you WILL die. If you are nt you laugh at them. Unique and as originally designed, fixed.

- Railguns need to be the actual snipers: 2x the alpha of projectiles with 10% less dps, slightly increase range of guns, remove range bonuses from caldari ships and replace with tracking. Fixed.

Kthnxbye


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:51:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Crellion
Herp Derp


This would make hybrids hideously OP. Blasters should have good damage, and good tracking, but they should be paying for it in range - otherwise there's no reason to use anything else.

The railgun suggestion is just pure overpowered fail and not even worth considering.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:17:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: TharOkha on 22/08/2011 15:17:51
NO. They arent broken so why to fix them?

hybrid - They have greatest dps and tracking among the turrets but lacks in range (like shotgun)
laser - exelent optimal, but they can deal only em/therm, heavy cap eater and have worst tracking
autocanon - worst dps but they dont need cap, also they have great falloff (using them with tracking enhacers = great dps at mid-distance)
missisles - they suffers from hit time buffer.

Also have you tried Vindicator? It has tredemous damage and if hybrids would have more optimal/fallof it would be too much overpowered. You just want power of shotgut with sniper range.

DEFINITELY NO.

hint: train for all turrets, and you can use their benefits.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:27:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: JamesCLK on 22/08/2011 16:49:29
It's a well known issue that Hybrids are not exactly the most favored arsenal of weapons in fleet fights, however, it must be said that Blasters are by no means bad on a standalone level. They just don't work well in fleets (where everypony has their own range). Railguns DO have issues however.

I'm going to put my limb at risk here, but from my personal experience with gallente blaster boats, I'd argue that the biggest issue is the lack of base speed. It doesn't make sense for the race with the shortest range, highest dammage close range weapons to be almost as slow as the Amarr (who are well known for having the best range for their short range weapons, Scorch ammo says so).

In that mindset, I would propose:
- Boost Gallente ship base speeds across the board. They should be faster than minmatar - there is a catch however.
- Make sure that the Gallente ship AGILITY is kept the hell down. This makes Gallente able to get in range fast, but they won't be able to orbit very fast. That complements the blasters inherantly low tracking speed, so you can actually hit the target.

By the above, Gallente become the fastest race with the worst agility, Minmatar have the best agility (tighter orbits with more transversal, autocannons can track very well), Caldari end up having slightly less speed than Minmatar but better agility than Gallente, and Amarr are slow but should be more agile than Caldari, less than Minmatar.

Something that could complement that was if Armor plates didn't reduce the speed gain from propulsion modules, just your acceleration and agility.

I havn't used Railguns as much as blasters, but I can definately see that they are outperformed by both artillery, long range missiles, and beam lasers.
I don't have much of an idea on how to fix these because of that (they don't have any real advantages to begin with, unlike blasters) Sad


EDIT:
Originally by: TharOkha
Edited by: TharOkha on 22/08/2011 15:17:51
NO. They arent broken so why to fix them?

hybrid - They have greatest dps and tracking among the turrets but lacks in range (like shotgun)
laser - exelent optimal, but they can deal only em/therm, heavy cap eater and have worst tracking
autocanon - worst dps but they dont need cap, also they have great falloff (using them with tracking enhacers = great dps at mid-distance)
missisles - they suffers from hit time buffer.

Also have you tried Vindicator? It has tredemous damage and if hybrids would have more optimal/fallof it would be too much overpowered. You just want power of shotgut with sniper range.

DEFINITELY NO.

hint: train for all turrets, and you can use their benefits.



[Hybrids, Blaster, Small]
Light Electron Blaster II
Tracking = 0.365 rad/s

Light Ion Blaster II
Tracking = 0.336 rad/s

Light Neutron Blaster II
Tracking = 0.3165 rad/s

- - - - -

[Projectile, Autocannon, Small]
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II
Tracking = 0.417 rad/s

150mm Light AutoCannon II
Tracking = 0.362

200mm AutoCannon II
Tracking = 0.315

- - - - -

By the above figures, would you say that Hybrids have the best tracking?
How about these figures?

[Hybrids, Railgun, Small]
75mm Gatling Rail II
Tracking = 0.13

125mm Railgun II
Tracking = 0.085

150mm Railgun II
Tracking = 0.07

- - - - -

[Lasers, Beam, Small]
Dual Light Beam Laser II
Tracking = 0.13

Medium beam Laser II
Tracking = 0.1

- - - - -

ie. Blasters track worse than Autocannons, and Railguns track worse than Beams. Explain that (the above tracking numbers are the base UNBONUSED ones).

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.23 06:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/08/2011 06:02:02
Originally by: TharOkha

hybrid - They have greatest dps and tracking among the turrets but lacks in range (like shotgun)



Check your facts before you post, dude.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:20:00 - [12]
 

Well i compared large short range guns only (pulse, blaster, autocanon). I know that rails sucks, but aggain. Every weapon/race has their own addvantages and disadvantages and just use them in different scenarios. Blasters suck in fleet figths, but they are useful in other situations. I dont know how you but i dont want every race to be the same.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:22:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: JamesCLK

In that mindset, I would propose:
- Boost Gallente ship base speeds across the board. They should be faster than minmatar - there is a catch however.
- Make sure that the Gallente ship AGILITY is kept the hell down. This makes Gallente able to get in range fast, but they won't be able to orbit very fast. That complements the blasters inherantly low tracking speed, so you can actually hit the target.



I have been thinking and proposed something similar in earlier threads, but it's so widely different from the OTHER base thoughts of Gallente (Armor Tanking etc) that it just wouldn't work anymore.

And yes, that would mean I'm actually suggesting Gallente has been misdesigned from the beginning.

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: Crellion
Herp Derp


This would make hybrids hideously OP. Blasters should have good damage, and good tracking, but they should be paying for it in range - otherwise there's no reason to use anything else.

The railgun suggestion is just pure overpowered fail and not even worth considering.



True I OP'd them a bit just because they have had it so bad for so long... but if that's your problem just play with the actual stats (as in how much more DPS etc etc)

Your 'paying for it in range' comment shows how clueless you are... if you removed fall off altogether from blasters and doubled their optimal you would in fact be reducing their effective range by a good bit... (and making them more missile like in a way...). If you can't see that you should not be posting here.

The suggestions themselves (which you were brainless enough to delete and substitute for your own mental self pleasing and so people can;t see them by reading this post) are the only ones that keep a genuine character for the weapon systems in line with the original design and intention.

Either be useful and explain why the ideas are wrong at their core, or be useful and tweak their numbers to make them not OP, but do not be a useless troll please...

PS Assuming (I know it's iffy) you are an attention w...e / lady I ll tell you that I have seen countless trolls here all these years and very few constructive posters. If you seek attention you might want to try being constructive...

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Crellion


The suggestions themselves are the only ones that keep a genuine character for the weapon systems in line with the original design and intention.



The original "genuine character" of the weapons systems has been power-creeped into oblivion. The tracking boost to Pulse has made it able to apply good DPS close up, stepping into blasters' role, out of character from its intention as a relatively medium-range weapon. The damage increase and selectable-damage of ACs have made them able to apply good DPS close up, again stepping into blasters' role and out of character from a relatively weak weapon intended to be used in falloff on fast, agile ships.

If you want weapon systems to retain a genuine character, then you need to start talking about cutting laser and AC tracking and DPS, because hybrids are the only "balanced" weapon by that line of thinking. You won't just do it by increase blaster tracking and DPS, because this doesn't prevent lasers and ACs from applying excessive DPS in blasters' realm.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:51:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: JamesCLK

In that mindset, I would propose:
- Boost Gallente ship base speeds across the board. They should be faster than minmatar - there is a catch however.
- Make sure that the Gallente ship AGILITY is kept the hell down. This makes Gallente able to get in range fast, but they won't be able to orbit very fast. That complements the blasters inherantly low tracking speed, so you can actually hit the target.



I have been thinking and proposed something similar in earlier threads, but it's so widely different from the OTHER base thoughts of Gallente (Armor Tanking etc) that it just wouldn't work anymore.

And yes, that would mean I'm actually suggesting Gallente has been misdesigned from the beginning.


Problem being that Gallente were originally designed as a HULL TANKING race... I know right (real men and whatnot) Laughing
Blasters don't suck if you know how to use them (ie. you need to micromanage your speed as well as your orbit and fit - it's a lot harder than say... Autocannons), and they excel in solo PvP scenarios that don't involve Dramiels.

The Punisher can actually use blasters efficiently because it's lack of agility means you orbit close to the optimal speed for your blasters to hit by default! I've used that many a time to trap and kill overconfident Rifter pilots. Even if it was only on the test server Rolling Eyes

Gallente ships DO need to be redesigned from the ground up. The fact that they only have a handfull of good droneboats, and that these ships are the only fleet ships from the gallente lineup that are considered acceptable (bar specialised ships like the Phobos) should point to the fact that they don't have the right bonuses, or the right atributes to be used in such a scenario. Blasters would be as feared as 1400 artillery Maelstrom fleets if the gang of megathron with neutron blasters were able to cover 100km in any reasonable ammount of time (with MWDs ofc). [note: we're assuming they dont have any mandatory probe ships to provide instant warpins]

Some ships might benefit from a speed bonus while using a MWD, while others could really do with a MWD cap penalty reduction bonus.
Designing Gallente around their primary weapon systems would be the best course of action. Blasters work as is (well, almost), Railguns need a rethinking, Gallente ships need to be rebuilt from scratch.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:57:00 - [17]
 

It reminded me of a programming class I once had, about anti-patterns.

Design by Committee

Essentially, if you decide EVERYTHING by democratic means, you'll never get a proper end result. (Thinking roleplay this time) So Gallente was like "We need very powerful weapons" "How about shotguns?" "Sure" then they were like "We need to defend ourselves" "We'll have lots of strong plates like tanks" "Sure" and so on.

Anyway, diversion.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:58:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: JamesCLK on 23/08/2011 09:01:59
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
It reminded me of a programming class I once had, about anti-patterns.

Design by Committee

Essentially, if you decide EVERYTHING by democratic means, you'll never get a proper end result. (Thinking roleplay this time) So Gallente was like "We need very powerful weapons" "How about shotguns?" "Sure" then they were like "We need to defend ourselves" "We'll have lots of strong plates like tanks" "Sure" and so on.

Anyway, diversion.


Except to begin with they were all "So... what about defences?" to which the response was "Real men hull tank" Laughing
Oh, and then they just 'forgot' about how important tracking is when your weapons system has the worst overall range. Way to go S&I department. ugh

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:05:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: JamesCLK

Oh, and then they just 'forgot' about how important tracking is when your weapons system has the worst overall range. Way to go S&I department. ugh


If they would've acted like ACTUAL shotguns, they probably wouldn't have needed much tracking cause you'd hit ANYWAY.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: JamesCLK

Oh, and then they just 'forgot' about how important tracking is when your weapons system has the worst overall range. Way to go S&I department. ugh


If they would've acted like ACTUAL shotguns, they probably wouldn't have needed much tracking cause you'd hit ANYWAY.


Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Blasters are the new AOE turret Cool

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: JamesCLK
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: JamesCLK

Oh, and then they just 'forgot' about how important tracking is when your weapons system has the worst overall range. Way to go S&I department. ugh


If they would've acted like ACTUAL shotguns, they probably wouldn't have needed much tracking cause you'd hit ANYWAY.


Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Blasters are the new AOE turret Cool


Cone-style man. You don't need tracking if the shrapnel is going out a 45 degree angle :P

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.23 10:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: JamesCLK
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: JamesCLK

Oh, and then they just 'forgot' about how important tracking is when your weapons system has the worst overall range. Way to go S&I department. ugh


If they would've acted like ACTUAL shotguns, they probably wouldn't have needed much tracking cause you'd hit ANYWAY.


Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Blasters are the new AOE turret Cool


Cone-style man. You don't need tracking if the shrapnel is going out a 45 degree angle :P


Except then to remain reasonable, just like a shotgun, the weakness is that you almost never hit with ALL the shrapnel Embarassed
Scrap this, it's a terrible idea Laughing

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.23 11:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: JamesCLK

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Blasters are the new AOE turret Cool


Technically that would make them somewhat unique if they would hit an arc ahead of the ship, but unfortunately that would require the eve game system to give a toss about where the ships nose is headed, which it doesn't really.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.23 11:21:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: JamesCLK on 23/08/2011 11:22:33
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: JamesCLK

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Blasters are the new AOE turret Cool


Technically that would make them somewhat unique if they would hit an arc ahead of the ship, but unfortunately that would require the eve game system to give a toss about where the ships nose is headed, which it doesn't really.


Everything in the eve physics system is represented and handled as a sphere. Lots of spheres with lots of vectors. Since a vector is a change in position at a given point in time, you can get the heading of said sphere. This is why ships actually look like they fly in a given direction. It's easily within reasonable reach from a coding standpoint Smile

Is is a good idea though? I don't think so... <insert refrence to the old AOE Torpedoes>Wink

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.23 22:30:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: JamesCLK

Everything in the eve physics system is represented and handled as a sphere. Lots of spheres with lots of vectors. Since a vector is a change in position at a given point in time, you can get the heading of said sphere. This is why ships actually look like they fly in a given direction. It's easily within reasonable reach from a coding standpoint Smile


Technically yes, but that doesnt mean your monitor shows ships front pointing in the right direction. I believe that and the actual heading are two separate things, as same ships front can point in two different directions on two different clients, and we have the ships warping sideways and all that jazz.

Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.08.24 01:25:00 - [26]
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxMDtiKVPjA&feature=related

Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:17:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Taron Hakard on 25/08/2011 17:17:41
blasters are fine, the ships need alot of work cuz of ******ed ass ship bonuses and agility when it comes to gallente and drones bays on alot of ships, capacitor, lack of mids for a web for caldari and speed for both races, it's alot more work than you'd think, unless ccp has no ****ing clue about what's going on and is just going to take a year to slightly buff dps on hybrids

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:14:00 - [28]
 

Quote:
blasters are fine


How exactly are blasters fine when other turrets can do the exact same thing, and more, and better?

Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:32:00 - [29]
 

They can't, ships are doing the job, not the guns. Blasters do the most DPS out of all the turrets and that's fine. However f.e. Minmatar hulls have perfect bonuses to their weapon systems, tracking, falloff, rof, damage, most gallente ships have some ****ing weird ass second bonus that's a relic of old times like the thorax MWD bonus.

The Moa f.e. has just 3 drones and is either a massive floating brick that can't deal with smaller ships or fits a web and can't deal with ships of it's own size. It also has cap issues mainly to the fact that most of the dps on caldari ships come from their free lows which means high RoF and increased cap conumption.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:23:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: JamesCLK on 25/08/2011 20:32:00
Originally by: Taron Hakard
They can't, ships are doing the job, not the guns. Blasters do the most DPS out of all the turrets and that's fine. However f.e. Minmatar hulls have perfect bonuses to their weapon systems, tracking, falloff, rof, damage, most gallente ships have some ****ing weird ass second bonus that's a relic of old times like the thorax MWD bonus.

The Moa f.e. has just 3 drones and is either a massive floating brick that can't deal with smaller ships or fits a web and can't deal with ships of it's own size. It also has cap issues mainly to the fact that most of the dps on caldari ships come from their free lows which means high RoF and increased cap conumption.


I'll agree that Gallente ships lack apropriate bonuses in a lot of cases. As for the Caldari ships that deal with hybrids, they're definately not easy to fit for close combat, it's one of the main reasons I always think of Caldari Hybrid ships as favoring kiting setups. Wheather or not you can actually kite with a Moa however, is something I'm not entirely sure is a viable tactic.

However, I'll also argue that Gallente ships spend a hell of a lot of their time flying towards targets, and in many a case, never actually catch the target (read: Gallente ships are slow as ****) before dieing in a fire - even with a MWD.

Blasters may not need much of a tweak, but the entire concept of Gallente and Caldari Hybrid ships definately needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Railguns too.


 

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