open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Ishtar... why I'm confused.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.21 20:37:00 - [1]
 

So I recently started flying an ishtar... The two, more important aspects of the ishtar I have not trained for are T2 heavies and/or sentries.

I popped a question to a few people and got the response to use sentries. heavies are a waste of time.

I was given information... with no real explanation for any of the information .

1. Use sentries because they deal instant damage. (also there was re-itteration about how slow heavies were and how you would have to wait for damage to be applied, and then that they could be targetted...)

The way I see it, The ishtar is built to work around this problem. For one, the ishtar is a very mobile, making it easily capable of being where the drones are when you are killing a trigger. Also, being near the ship you are trying to kill provides a few advantages... salvaging and looting, that ship can't hit you or barely can, ability to apply blaster dps... and it's more fun than sitting back with sentries. Also, the instant dps from sentries isn't very important considering that ogres may move slowly, but at the worst, you are waiting.. what... a minute for them to fly 50km? even at that, you would be following them unless it involved flying straight into the ships targetting you right?

2. One of the people told me they do more damage than heavies...

I immediately went to EFT to check and found that sentries don't do more damage than heavies (unless rigged for the damage bonus). I responded, and was given another half assed answer... apparently, if it takes less time to train, it is more optimal in the heat of combat. ??????????

3. There was an implication when I was asking these questions, that you would be sitting still in an ishtar...

The only reason I can see myself being wrong about the use of sentries right now would be a misunderstanding of how sig tanking works... I thought the point of sig tanking was a combination of being a harder to hit target along with being a moving target. If you did not have to move to sig tank, I guess I would be fully understanding of sentries... but people fail to give me straight answers when I ask. so... hello forums.

So I would like to know why I would use sentries over heavies on an ishtar, essentially.
I am looking for real answers here... with real explanations. I'm the kind of gamer that doesn't take information and go "oh... okay, he says he's been playing for years, he must be right." Because we all have seen people who play for years in video games... and suck. outright. I just can't take someone's word that something will work, when it's gotten me killed on more than one occasion.

Lorravan
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:00:00 - [2]
 

The difference between T2 heavies and T2 sentries without any rigs is about 25dps. If it takes heavies 10 seconds to fly to a target you have lost about 4000 damage total which means they would have to be in combat with that target for 160 seconds to make up the lost damage.

With a sentry damage rig the sentries will do more dps than heavies are capable of regardless of flight time. To sig tank in an ishtar drop a sentry drone, turn on your AB and orbit your drone.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Kyr Evotorin
The way I see it, The ishtar is built to work around this problem. For one, the ishtar is a very mobile, making it easily capable of being where the drones are when you are killing a trigger.
The problem is that this doesn't solve the issue. You still have to move your drones from ship to ship, and this takes time. Yes, it may “only” be one minute, but that's one minute per ship, and in that minute, and in the time it takes to actually kill the ship once there, a sentry setup will have killed two ships.
Quote:
I immediately went to EFT to check and found that sentries don't do more damage than heavies (unless rigged for the damage bonus).
…but you always rig your sentry boat, so meh.
Quote:
There was an implication when I was asking these questions, that you would be sitting still in an ishtar...
No, you can orbit your sentries if you like. That provides you with a nice bit of sig tanking. Not that you really need it, though, since the Ishtar can turtle-tank like there's no tomorrow.
Quote:
So I would like to know why I would use sentries over heavies on an ishtar
Because you can apply your damage immediately and because you do more damage faster. The only ships you should use heavies against are close-orbiting battleships (most commonly mercs and angels). For everything else, the sentries will outdamage heavies by a large margin for a number of reasons.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:11:00 - [4]
 

Train both, but train T2 sentry drones first. They do more damage - because you fit at least one SDA. Sentry drones make good use of your drone control range bonus. If you want to mitigate incoming damage, orbit your sentry drones. As mentioned, they do instant damage. If you are being orbited by a bunch of normal ranged NPC ships (37-40 km), sentry drones are your best bet. Carry a flight of T2 heavy drones as well, since they kill everything else.

My normal Kinetic/Thermal drone ship loadout is 1 flight of Hobgoblin 2's for elite frigates, then 1 flight each of Gardes, Wardens, and Ogre 2's. This gives me a long range option, mid-range option, and very close range option.

Heavy drones are not a waste of time, but T2 sentries are usually better.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:15:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kyr Evotorin

1. Use sentries because they deal instant damage. (also there was re-itteration about how slow heavies were and how you would have to wait for damage to be applied, and then that they could be targetted...)

The way I see it, The ishtar is built to work around this problem. For one, the ishtar is a very mobile,[...]



Well... yes and no. In PVP, yes, this tactic works out fine. Go right up to the target and plop down drones on top of them.
In PVE, range and speed are half of the Ishtar's tank. You don't want to go right into the thick of the rat horde and then plop down drones... your tank won't last long.

More than this... fitting medium guns on an Ishtar is almost impossible without severely gimping its tank. No... an Ishtar's DPS comes almost exclusively from drones.

Originally by: Kyr Evotorin

2. One of the people told me they do more damage than heavies...



On paper they don't. Heavies generally have a higher damage modifier than sentry drones unless you attach a sentry drone rig to your ship. However, sentries don't have a "flight time" to the target the same way heavies do (dealing damage the same way turrets do) and so deal more DPS over the long run.

Originally by: Kyr Evotorin

3. There was an implication when I was asking these questions, that you would be sitting still in an ishtar...



See above. Half the Ishtar's tank is speed and range. The only times you should be standing still are when you are using sentries to "snipe" rats at range (or you are using a Rattlesnake).
Once the rats get too close (and all aggro is on you), recall the ranged sentries, plop down some Gardes (the short range ones), and then orbit them at about 30 to 40km. The drones will chew apart anything that has redboxed on you.

Carlo Arnolles
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:22:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Lorravan
The difference between T2 heavies and T2 sentries without any rigs is about 25dps. If it takes heavies 10 seconds to fly to a target you have lost about 4000 damage total which means they would have to be in combat with that target for 160 seconds to make up the lost damage.

With a sentry damage rig the sentries will do more dps than heavies are capable of regardless of flight time. To sig tank in an ishtar drop a sentry drone, turn on your AB and orbit your drone.


Your math is very wrong. If it takes heavies 10 seconds to get to a target, then that's 10 seconds' worth of damage lost and they will need to stay for an extra ten seconds. I don't know where you get almost three minutes from, that makes no sense.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:38:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Carlo Arnolles
Your math is very wrong. If it takes heavies 10 seconds to get to a target, then that's 10 seconds' worth of damage lost and they will need to stay for an extra ten seconds. I don't know where you get almost three minutes from, that makes no sense.
Because those 10s worth of lost damage won't take 10s to recover from, due to the small damage difference between sentries and heavies.

To use the numbers Lorravan presented:

We have a 25 DPS difference between heavies and sentries in favour of the heavies. The sentries do 400 DPS (as shown by them delivering 4000 damage over 10s), which means the sentries do 425 DPS. As a result, once the heavies get into range, they will eat into that 4000 damage lead the sentries created at a rate of merely 25 DPS, so it will take (4000 / 25) = 160s — nearly three minutes — before that lead has been completely eroded away.

If, at any time during these 160s, the target dies, the sentries can immediately start to DPS a new target, whereas the heavies have to move and lose more time doing so.

Lorravan
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Carlo Arnolles

Your math is very wrong. If it takes heavies 10 seconds to get to a target, then that's 10 seconds' worth of damage lost and they will need to stay for an extra ten seconds. I don't know where you get almost three minutes from, that makes no sense.

It's based on the difference in damage between heavies and sentries. During the first 10s of the fight the heavies (475 dps) do 0 damage and sentries (450 dps) do 4500 total. It would take the heavies 3 minutes to pass the sentries in total damage output.

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:02:00 - [9]
 

Thanks all, every question has been answered to satisfaction and beyond.

Just for clarity, I was using the blasters on my ship because in the space I'm in, forsaken hubs/ havens are all I can get my grubby hands on, so i found myself running 1 kin/therm hardener and 1 repper... i went into EFT, found the amazing dps gains vs. tank loss, and fit my ship for such. Clearly, I can't pull this off in something like an 8/10... but taking ships down in less than a quarter of a minute was fun. Also, in more clarity, I wasn't running to the ships, then dropping drones (the drones fly faster than the ishtar by about 2x the speed), I was dropping drones as soon as all aggro was on me, whilst flying towards my target. I was using blasters, and not in a complex, so flying towards them did not seem to be an issue... I should have noted that when thinking about all of this, sorry.

However, I do clearly see the benefit of using both types of drones now. Thanks again.

Anya Ohaya
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:59:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Anya Ohaya on 22/08/2011 00:02:54
There are situations where Ogres are more useful. Against Angel battleships and cruisers, and some Serpentis battleships that are orbiting inside of 10km Ogres will be able to apply a lot more damage (and travel time is not really an issue). In Buzz Kill Ogres can pop the elite cruisers than Sentry drones can't even hit.

If you want to move (e.g. if the next gate is 100km away), it is often more convenient to use Ogres and fight while flying (although this applies to slower ships more than to the Ishtar.

There are also some ships that insist on orbiting at stupid ranges, where the Sentries damage is limited (like some Mordus battleships), and Ogres will be better.

And if you want to put big guns on an Ishtar, try fitting (non-energized) armor coating. The resists are lower, but the fitting is much easier. The faction and c-type coating is also quite cheap.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2011.08.22 08:24:00 - [11]
 

As an Ishtar pilot with both heavies and sentries to 5, I *never* use my heavies. The only time I've used heavies in recent memory was an angel mission where I wanted to see if the heavies did better than sentries against close orbiting battleships (the sentries were having tracking trouble).

Long story short, any sort of NPC killing operation takes a fair deal of time and involves killing a ton of rats. The instant damage of sentries is just SO much better, orbiting one of your sentries so you stay in pickup range AND get the speed tank really means you don't miss anything from having heavies and just flying around all over.

Sentries also can one volley the pirate frigates if you have a longer-ranged spawn.

Nomad Vherokic
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:28:00 - [12]
 

Sentries with targets above 20km (15km if using Gardes), Heavies below that range.

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:35:00 - [13]
 

*hugs Ishtar*

*hugs Sentries*

Nomad Vherokic
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:05:00 - [14]
 

If an Ishtar is a C-Cup implant, a Domi is a DD...


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only