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blankseplocked [Proposal] Super solution, no nerf needed.
 
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Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.19 23:50:00 - [1]
 

When it comes to supers the game is broken, an aeon can easily sustain 120mil EHP for 2 mins with overheated hardeners (70 without) and titan bonuses. Now throw reps on top of that. After getting blobbed with 60+ supers all the time, by DRF, white noise, NC. and friends, it seems no one can match their strength, for every super they lose they got 3 in the oven and 2 on standby per pilot. Within a few days titan pilots get new titans if the lose one.

Now my solution is simple. Dreads......

They are useless right now except for structure bashing. What changes need to be made? Dreads need t2 guns with ammo made specifically to do massive damage to Supers. Also they need a "Warfare Module" mode that increases resits for everything, increase tracking, increase damage even more, invulnerability to DD, 600% local rep bonus, -100% scan res so they cant go after sub caps or carriers or other dreads effectively.

This will bring dreads back to the role they were made for to counter supers. A super fleet without sub cap support should be dominated by an equal sized dread fleet. A sub cap fleet should be able to dominate dreads hands down, and like now supers should be able to dominate sub caps fleets. And titans should have a slight advantage over all, like they already do. 10 titans vs 10 dreads should end up with 5 titans and 0 dreads by the end of the battle. It should take a mother ship blob to take out a single dread.

Comments welcome.

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:12:00 - [2]
 

The likelihood of this happening seem slim considering the way gun mechanics work, but I like the idea.

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:24:00 - [3]
 

It will need fine tuning, but the concept is what I want to get across. Right now we are trying to play rock paper scissors, and supers come along with their chainsaws, cut off your hands and say I win.

I know it's not perfect, it needs some tweaking. But the concept is sound.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:33:00 - [4]
 

Your solution is "super" indeed.

VC General
Caldari
No Baals Inc

Posted - 2011.08.20 05:04:00 - [5]
 

This goes back to the dev blog a few weeks ago that basically said if CCP makes something annoying and boring, but advantageous, people will still do it and just hate the game for making them do it. It's a lot of hard work creating a massive supercap fleet, but as we can see, people are now doing it, and it's breaking the rest of the game.

CCP should have known it was only a matter of time until a critical mass of characters would be trained and rich enough to fly blobs of supercaps. Just like you see in a typical PvE grind MMO, by the end of the expac, nearly all players will have the best loot, and thus be expected to use "epic" ships just to participate effectively in large scale combat.

The only ways to fix this is (1) like other MMO's do, you raise the level cap, and make better epics, i.e. you introduce death stars or some crap, which someone will eventually obtain in mass, and we're back at square one, or (2) You create a specific counter that makes these ships more of a strategic gamble to take to the field, and not a situation where if you have more of them than the other guy, you automatically win.

I like the idea of dreads being that counter. They're already technically the counter, but they aren't as effective as they should be. Like the OP said, 10 Titans vs 10 Dreads should end up 5-0, and 10 Titan vs 10 Dreads plus support should be 0-10 at the end. Dreads have the very specific role of putting godly damage on things too big for Battleships to blow up in a timely fashion. I think supercaps and POS both fit that description quite nicely.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.20 10:44:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Amaradus Caligula
Dreads need t2 guns with ammo made specifically to do massive damage to Supers. Also they need a "Warfare Module" mode that increases resits for everything, increase tracking, increase damage even more, invulnerability to DD, 600% local rep bonus, -100% scan res so they cant go after sub caps or carriers or other dreads effectively.


Scan resolution of zero? Awesome! Razz

Also, I think you meant "decrease tracking" - as you say, you don't want these things hitting subcaps.

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.20 18:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Amaradus Caligula
Dreads need t2 guns with ammo made specifically to do massive damage to Supers. Also they need a "Warfare Module" mode that increases resits for everything, increase tracking, increase damage even more, invulnerability to DD, 600% local rep bonus, -100% scan res so they cant go after sub caps or carriers or other dreads effectively.


Scan resolution of zero? Awesome! Razz

Also, I think you meant "decrease tracking" - as you say, you don't want these things hitting subcaps.


Well, for the most part ignore the numbers, they are just something to give a general idea. About the -100% scan res was to take a godly amount of time to lock sub caps, not zero, my mistake (while still having great targeting on supers, around 10-15 seconds). The reasoning is, so you don't have a repeat of the problems you have now by having dread blobs just killing everything. And yes I did mean increase tracking, the turrets base tracking speed is already slow enough, tracking computers should definitely have a better time when ship can't move. However, like I said, the specifics aren't perfect, it's the general concept of making the dreads effective for entering a fleet battle, to do what they were meant to do.

chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 19:39:00 - [8]
 

I like this idea. It reminds me of the ion frigate on home world. I've thought if another idea I think would go well with it. More of a cheap fleet addition perse'.

Does anyone here remember that episode of battlestar galactica where they sent Starbuck on that suicide mission in their new stealth fighter?  
She snuck in close and then attacked the resurrection ships FTL drive?  
I think they followed it up by jumping some of those little puddle jumpers in with Nukes and blew it to cylon heaven?  

Ok mayby I've got the wrong spaceship movie,  Im pretty sure I've watched them all and sometimes they all run together.  Anyway to the point.

Why not make a new stealth bomber from the dessy hull that has only 2 high slots.  
One for a covert ops cloak and one for a specialized anti super capital torpedo.  
It would have enough cargo for 1 additional torpedo, and could only hold One torpedo in the launcher.

The launcher would only be able to fire once every 15 minutes With heavy bombers specialization trained to lvl1,  and could be lowered down to every 10 minutes by lvl 5
Firing would take 3 seconds after hitting the fire button and would disable the cloak for the duration of the 10-15 minute reactivation timer. 
Additional consequences for using the weapon  Would be the inability to eject, jump, dock or store the ship.
This would Make it completely hunt-able for 10-15 minutes.

This would give any super caps surviving a first strike a very strong signal that it may be time to leave, if they didn't bring appropriate defenses, and give them enough time for their own doomsday devices to cool down and GTFO.  

If they are in a well trained and balanced fleet, the first strike would be completely ineffective and would result only in the wholesale slaughter of any heavy bomber squads foolish enough to try and engage. 
Any members who managed to fire and warp out would also be hunted down and eliminated.

The reasons given for all these disabilities will be conjured up in the following posts.




When the torpedo is Loaded it would drop the ships manuverability to that of an orca, but would still be able to reach the same cloaked speeds as the regular bomber, albeit more slowly.

After dropping it's payload it's maneuverability would return to the same as a destroyer. 
Which would be important because it's ability to drop and run would be it's only defence.

The torpedo itself would be unguided put, put, slow;
and would have to hit directly to cause it's terrible damage of (to throw a random number out there) 
200k damage to the target and 6k starting damage to everything within 15km. 
The 200k direct damage would be constant while the AOE secondary damage would be effected by the heavy bomber skill, and would have the same 5% per skill level damage increase as the normal bombs. 
Secondary AOE damage being the same as a regular bomber's AOE.

The heavy bomber would have no secondary weapons meaning it drops it's payload and runs before it blows itself up.
 
It wouldn't be able to land it's primary damage on anything smaller than a super capital ship. Only the secondary regular area of effect bomb damage would.  

This would make them even less of a threat to sub super capitals than regular bombers are now. 

Despite the devastating power of the anti capital torpedo it would still take a lot of them to take down a Titan or super carrier.  Requiring several waves. 

These would be the kind of ships carriers etc would carry in their maintenance arrays incase the occasion presented itself. 

They wouldn't even be able to (direct) hit pos due to their sig radius being less than that of a super.  Meaning a normal bomber is far better suited for POS bashing 

The primary (direct) damage would only detonate within a certain range of a suitable signature radius. 
"like hitting wombats". 
This would make hitting a moving super like trying to get the lucky shot into the death stars exhaust port.

Continued in the next post--->

chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 19:42:00 - [9]
 

The second post

I would make the torps have just enough flight time to fire within 6 Km's of the cap putting them in smartbomb range.

The stats, meds and lows would be the same as the thrasher 3 and 2 for shield tanks and for armor 1 med and 4 lows.  

(Note: ballistic control would only effect the AOE damage not the direct damage,  same as regular bombs.) 
this means that if a bomber chose gank over tank it would probably not survive if the cap has a smart bomb fitted.  
It also means that a super surrounded by ships equipped with smart bombs would have a pretty effective screen;
While an all capital fleet would have major holes in their defenses.
A properly tanked heavy bomber could possibly survive, launch and retreat but the gank boat would never withstand even light smartbombing long enough to launch it's torpedo.

By keeping the AOE damage the same as the typical damage a bomber fleet can put out in one organized bombing run,   and making the bombs hit points the same;  you would still only be able to launch 6 at a time with ought blowing the excess bombs. Meaning a single strike would be worth about  1,200,000 damage. 

That may sound like allot but imagine a typical battle with hundreds of pilots and many of them in capitals and super capitals on each side and imagine if one side had hired an all heavy bomber merc gang of 80 heavy bombers.  
As long as the cap fleet is flying in formation with smart bomb equipped ships or fast locking high tracking types,  or possibly even having their own bombers bombing them sporadically just to make sure.   Many of the bombers, and even the crawling slow bombs, would never reach their target. 
If there was an interdictor it could pop a bubble around the cap at the first sign of heavy bombers ensuring a higher casualty rate yet.  
Meaning most of them would not be comming home. 
And Many more would never get to fire their second torpedo.  

So while adding a new element of risk to flying supers solo it doesn't make them useless or too at risk as long as they are flying in a balanced fleet.  It does however discourage the use of an all caps fleet which would probably not be able to lock onto the bomber in time to defend itself.

Also since hitting a moving super would be extremely hard from the flanks it would force pilots to attack mainly from the front or rear of the super or force them to kamikaze by all approaching to 0 and launching at point blank range. 
Sequencing a kamikaze attack would probably catch some of them before they even hit the fire button making them ineffectual.

I would imagine in the heat of battle these things would die in droves and would quickly earn the name "suicide ride".

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.21 04:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: chopper14
The second post

I would make the torps have just enough flight time to fire within 6 Km's of the cap putting them in smartbomb range.

The stats, meds and lows would be the same as the thrasher 3 and 2 for shield tanks and for armor 1 med and 4 lows.  

(Note: ballistic control would only effect the AOE damage not the direct damage,  same as regular bombs.) 
this means that if a bomber chose gank over tank it would probably not survive if the cap has a smart bomb fitted.  
It also means that a super surrounded by ships equipped with smart bombs would have a pretty effective screen;
While an all capital fleet would have major holes in their defenses.
A properly tanked heavy bomber could possibly survive, launch and retreat but the gank boat would never withstand even light smartbombing long enough to launch it's torpedo.

By keeping the AOE damage the same as the typical damage a bomber fleet can put out in one organized bombing run,   and making the bombs hit points the same;  you would still only be able to launch 6 at a time with ought blowing the excess bombs. Meaning a single strike would be worth about  1,200,000 damage. 

That may sound like allot but imagine a typical battle with hundreds of pilots and many of them in capitals and super capitals on each side and imagine if one side had hired an all heavy bomber merc gang of 80 heavy bombers.  
As long as the cap fleet is flying in formation with smart bomb equipped ships or fast locking high tracking types,  or possibly even having their own bombers bombing them sporadically just to make sure.   Many of the bombers, and even the crawling slow bombs, would never reach their target. 
If there was an interdictor it could pop a bubble around the cap at the first sign of heavy bombers ensuring a higher casualty rate yet.  
Meaning most of them would not be comming home. 
And Many more would never get to fire their second torpedo.  

So while adding a new element of risk to flying supers solo it doesn't make them useless or too at risk as long as they are flying in a balanced fleet.  It does however discourage the use of an all caps fleet which would probably not be able to lock onto the bomber in time to defend itself.

Also since hitting a moving super would be extremely hard from the flanks it would force pilots to attack mainly from the front or rear of the super or force them to kamikaze by all approaching to 0 and launching at point blank range. 
Sequencing a kamikaze attack would probably catch some of them before they even hit the fire button making them ineffectual.

I would imagine in the heat of battle these things would die in droves and would quickly earn the name "suicide ride".



While you do have a decent idea here, it would be more prudent of you to make your own proposal thread. Thanks for supporting my idea but your post is a little off topic. On a side note, since i have no idea how missiles work, I rarely use them myself, if someone knowledgeable on citadel launchers could comment on them please do.

Valari Nala Zena
Caldari
Perkone

Posted - 2011.08.21 12:02:00 - [11]
 

Not a bad thought, though i fear the counter is maybe a little bit overpowered.

Setup: 10 dreads vs 10 titans.
Result: 0 dreads, 5 titans.

The people flying titans would lose about 250 bil, while the dread loss is maybe max 20 bil.
Maybe implementing a high cost for the special warfare module would be in order, 4-7 bil maybe?

I like your idea though, even if prices of dreads won't change, it will give people who don't have access to supers a chance to fight against an alliance with a large super force.

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:04:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Amaradus Caligula on 21/08/2011 23:05:04
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena
Not a bad thought, though i fear the counter is maybe a little bit overpowered.

Setup: 10 dreads vs 10 titans.
Result: 0 dreads, 5 titans.

The people flying titans would lose about 250 bil, while the dread loss is maybe max 20 bil.
Maybe implementing a high cost for the special warfare module would be in order, 4-7 bil maybe?

I like your idea though, even if prices of dreads won't change, it will give people who don't have access to supers a chance to fight against an alliance with a large super force.


Let me give you a battle scenario if my plan goes into effect. Our 500 man hellcat fleet goes in to take down SBUs. All of a sudden DRF jumps in 50 mother ships and 20 titans, we start losing battleships in droves, with no recourse, we are eating away at the enemy nyx but they are holding reps. We try and buy time while we move our hictors and dictors in place, once we get a bubbles on them we bring your dreads in, finally we start breaking their tank and they start losing motherships. But what is this? A cyno gets lit right in the middle of our dreads and in jumps their abandon fleet, we only have 30 dreads on the field, within a few minutes we have already lost a couple. However, you have also devastated their super cap fleet, they have already lost half of their mother ships. Before the baddon fleet can kill off our dread fleet we jump in our super caps, and begin the work of dismantling their abaddon fleet. Whats left of our sub cap fleet is working on theirs at the moment and finally we can focus on their dreads they just jumped in. Both sides are pulling in reinforcements constantly. However, on the other side of the map a black ops fleet has effectively cut off their reinforcements using a currently non existent mobile jump jammer. (New idea?) The only thing they can take into battle now is more dreads and carriers and supers. But they know that the battle is lost, since they cannot reenforce their abaddon fleet. They chose not to throw more away. By the time the jammers get taken down the DRF fleet has dwindled, heavy losses on both sides but since the DRF so foolishly put their faith in super blobs, they have lost trillions. Instead of escalating the battle in an effective fashion by putting in place their sub cap fleet first they lost the battle and possibly the war.

The beginning of the battles from then on out were always decided by an effective sub cap fleet, the side that could hold the field with sub cap fleet, and when a side starts to lose the advantage in a key system they have no choice but to support the sub cap fleet with carriers and inexpensive effective alternative to supers, that can easily turn the side of a sub cap battle. Or what have you.

The thing is, from then on out battle escalation is always started with sub caps, and the possibilities for how you escalate the battle to your advantage is endless. Everyone will have an effective role in the battles and the skill of an FC will matter greatly in a fight, rather than just having numbers.

Chunicha
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:12:00 - [13]
 

Out of all the horrible, asinine ideas that get proposed in this part of the forum, this is one of the few I find to actually be a decently good idea. Although, admittedly, I would much rather the supercap counter be a subcap option rather than putting more capitals on the field, as even the grind into a dread can be rather arduous and I'd like to see eve be more egalitarian than it currently is where people dont have to have a corporate sponsorship to get into the more powerful pvp ships. But, if CCP were to institute something similar to what youre proposing, I would accept it with a minimum level of grumbling.

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:30:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Chunicha
Out of all the horrible, asinine ideas that get proposed in this part of the forum, this is one of the few I find to actually be a decently good idea. Although, admittedly, I would much rather the supercap counter be a subcap option rather than putting more capitals on the field, as even the grind into a dread can be rather arduous and I'd like to see eve be more egalitarian than it currently is where people dont have to have a corporate sponsorship to get into the more powerful pvp ships. But, if CCP were to institute something similar to what youre proposing, I would accept it with a minimum level of grumbling.


I personally, don't think a dread is that hard to get into, but maybe that's because I can already use them. An individual could train the necessary skills in less than a year, but with my proposal, there doesn't need to be many dreads on the field to suppress other supers. The most important ship on the field would become the sub cap, thus allowing more people to feel more important in fleets. We could possibly even see battle cruisers and cruisers become a more integral part of fleets as well, because taking out battleships would be the primary goal of the FC, and supers would be preoccupied with dreads and other supers to go after sub caps. Using my idea capitals would become a much smaller part of fleet composition, and probably not even used in small to medium fleet battles.

Now addressing corporate sponsorship to get into supers, an individual would have minimal ability to protect their own super by themselves. Supers are made to protect corporate assets, my idea is to make it risky to take out supers in any situation. Last thing this game needs is more people getting into more powerful ships.

Darius III
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:30:00 - [15]
 

Your proposal has merit and bears further investigation. D3

Demo Tiger
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:36:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Demo Tiger on 22/08/2011 02:38:05
I like what I see as a whole. Dreads see very minimal use outside of structure bashing, and even then, they aren't usually fielded because of the 10 minute timer on siege mode. As they are now, in siege mode, the Phoenix (top of the dreads) puts out a reasonable
7950 dps (4x CN BCS, Meta Citadel Torp launchers, standard kinetic rounds in siege mode at all level 5, no drones/rigs included) But at the cost of being stuck in place for 10 minutes, so in many situations, they're left off.


I like the idea of a separate "shoot even bigger things" siege module of sorts. Other options I'd throw out is adding 2 highs (turret/launcher hardpoints) and 1 mid or low slot to all the dreads. Also perhaps a 5% resists per level bonus? (I know, that'd be 3 bonuses per level, so what? they're capital ships) Make them a little hardier than they are right now, and perhaps see use.

But make whatever it is specific to dreads, not allowed on titans.


And as far as making something available to all, dreads can be built in empire. Just hop on into a low-sec station and build it, making this available to the masses, not just the big sov holders.

Valari Nala Zena
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.22 04:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Chunicha
Out of all the horrible, asinine ideas that get proposed in this part of the forum, this is one of the few I find to actually be a decently good idea. Although, admittedly, I would much rather the supercap counter be a subcap option rather than putting more capitals on the field, as even the grind into a dread can be rather arduous and I'd like to see eve be more egalitarian than it currently is where people dont have to have a corporate sponsorship to get into the more powerful pvp ships. But, if CCP were to institute something similar to what youre proposing, I would accept it with a minimum level of grumbling.


There has to be some effort and some risk involved, and in my opinion even dreads are pretty cheap if they would be designed to kill supers.

Dreads are also in heavy need of a new purpose as mentioned at fanfest, so this idea kinda hits "2 birds with 1 stone".

This is currently the problem:

Many supers together is the next "i win" button, currently overpowered and unstoppable unless faced with an equal or larger super capital force.

One thing is for sure, wars shouldn't be solely decided by whoever logs in the most supers.

This idea brings back some options and balance.
For example:

I would make sure i have my anti dread fleet ready before i bring out my super capital fleet.
The enemy can anticipate this and bring a counter to the anti dread fleet, in turn i could anticipate that and bring a counter to that as well.

The point is, a wider range of ships become important at a certain stage.
It's fun if people feel they can make a difference in their ship, and fun is what it's eventually all about.



foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows

Posted - 2011.08.22 08:47:00 - [18]
 

I think this could work, although the numbers need to be retweaked HEAVILY.

Still, a cautious thumbs up.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice

Posted - 2011.08.22 14:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: VC General
You create a specific counter that makes these ships more of a strategic gamble to take to the field, and not a situation where if you have more of them than the other guy, you automatically win.



This is what we need, I don't know if Dreads are the answer for it but I like the thinking behind it.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:53:00 - [20]
 

This is assuredly not a new idea...it's been proposed many times by myself included and CCP tends to just ignore it. I however support "your" idea. =D


Joe D'Trader
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.23 23:21:00 - [21]
 

Do it, or something close to it.

Tarikan
Minmatar
Hardcore p0wnography
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:01:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tarikan on 24/08/2011 05:05:30
I am a fan of supporting a change and/or buff to Dreads in making them a capital ship worth using for something else other than shooting a pos.

while i do not have stats to show of myself, i believe a Dread should be the counter to SCs and Titans. Now how to implement dreads into a role like this i do not know, but i feel as though it would certainly increase the Dread's usefulness in game.

EDIT* forgot to support

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.24 09:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 24/08/2011 09:03:28
Quote:
Also they need a "Warfare Module" mode that increases resits for everything, increase tracking, increase damage even more, invulnerability to DD, 600% local rep bonus

So lets see, I think we can say right now that dreads are perfectly balanced, but the issue is supercaps are horribly overpowered. But looking at other caps and subcaps dreads are fine, now half your ideas boost them against subcaps and regular caps, why? Tracking really is not an issue in a fleet fight, put it in EFT and see for yourself, and yes EFT is accurate if you use it right, in the end eve is just math. And local rep boosts only makes them overpowered for small gang use in low dps situation (wormholes, lowsec away from the large hotdrop alliances), and has no effect against supercaps, really you arent going to rep against hunderds of fighterbombers.


Anyway dreads are fine, supers are too strong, so nerf supers.

Amaradus Caligula
Posted - 2011.08.25 06:23:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Amaradus Caligula on 25/08/2011 06:28:10
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 24/08/2011 09:03:28
Quote:
Also they need a "Warfare Module" mode that increases resits for everything, increase tracking, increase damage even more, invulnerability to DD, 600% local rep bonus

So lets see, I think we can say right now that dreads are perfectly balanced, but the issue is supercaps are horribly overpowered. But looking at other caps and subcaps dreads are fine, now half your ideas boost them against subcaps and regular caps, why? Tracking really is not an issue in a fleet fight, put it in EFT and see for yourself, and yes EFT is accurate if you use it right, in the end eve is just math. And local rep boosts only makes them overpowered for small gang use in low dps situation (wormholes, lowsec away from the large hotdrop alliances), and has no effect against supercaps, really you arent going to rep against hunderds of fighterbombers.


Anyway dreads are fine, supers are too strong, so nerf supers.


Locking time will make them useless, and since a subcaps job will be to fly close to dreads for maximum damage, dreads would never be able to track them even with tracking boosts. On top of which dreads will be a little busy dealing with supers to pay attention to sub caps. Also sub cap fleets should always have logi support so any damage that does happen to come off dreads will be quickly repaired. Making dreads stronger against supers with my proposed idea, does not also make them strong against sub caps.


Also let me add, since the mode will make it so you can't get remote reps, all low slots would be equipped with armor mods (so tracking and damage mods would be gone as well), local rep bonus is only to make them a little bit more resilient, not invincible, it's just to increase field time for a short duration, if your not getting neuted.


 

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