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blankseplocked This Is How You Remove Local - [No Srsly This Time]
 
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Miso Hitome
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:36:00 - [61]
 

Structure concepts:
Sensor Disruption Array: 375000 MW, 200 tf, reduces ship d-scanner range by 50%, this effect may be mitigated by ships with a scanning role bonus.
-May only be installed by corporations belonging to the sovereign entity.
-Only one may be anchored per system.
-May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km.
-May not be anchored inside the starbase shield.

System Scanning Array: 255000 MW, 75 tf, replaces a friendly ship's d-scan with its own scan, and an effective range of 16 au, multiple scanning arrays may be filtered or combined as the user sees fit. The system scanning array may be hacked to provide scanning data to unauthorized users. Additional starbase arrays online and outside the starbase shield may have negative effects on scan data.
-May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km.
-May not be anchored inside the starbase shield.

Scan Data Analysis Array: 375000 MW, 175 tf, Upgrades a system scanning array with a chance to detect cloaked ships dependant on type of cloak used and pilot cloaking skill, with a prototype cloak being easy to pick up while skilled pilots using a covert-ops cloak are quite difficult to detect.
-May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km.
-May not be anchored inside the starbase shield.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:20:00 - [62]
 

I like alot of the ideas that are thrown around here like:

- Friend of foe authentication
- Way to assertain the very rough location of cloaked ships
- Way to see moving/warping ships
- Turning D-SCAN and Probe scan into 1 big (that starts very rough) tool as it should be
- warning if your being scanned
- Effort and time versus results

In the future ships should be able to assertain a few things like the fact that your activly being scanned or being warped to.

The earlier EVE HUD had a sort of 3D radar incorperated that was taken out because it served no real purpose. Perhaps somebody can work something out that way. You can see a picture on that here (right hand of screen)

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:24:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Ciar Meara
I like alot of the ideas that are thrown around here like:

- Friend of foe authentication
- Way to assertain the very rough location of cloaked ships
- Way to see moving/warping ships
- Turning D-SCAN and Probe scan into 1 big (that starts very rough) tool as it should be
- warning if your being scanned
- Effort and time versus results

In the future ships should be able to assertain a few things like the fact that your activly being scanned or being warped to.

The earlier EVE HUD had a sort of 3D radar incorperated that was taken out because it served no real purpose. Perhaps somebody can work something out that way. You can see a picture on that here (right hand of screen)


Wow, you people insist on sucking the fun out of wormholes, don't you? The last thing we need is something turning wormholes into another version of nullsec with way too much intel for what's supposed to be dangerous space.

Mentira
Posted - 2011.08.23 21:56:00 - [64]
 

But you guys only think about blowing stuff up for what other players need weeks to rebuild.

Take local away in 0.0... fine, but don't whine if there will be less industrialists than before (which spaked the discussion of revamping 0.0 to attract more indy chars)

WH doesn't have local, but all WH residents have to use dscan all the time to see something bad coming (although they can't see cloaked ships). Now you want to revamp dscan to work differently in 0.0, to take local away there, but remove dscan completely in WH. I don't think, many people will stay in WH under those circumstances. At any time a new incoming WH can be opened from somewhere and the system i live in is swarmed with people and I have 0 chance to get a warning before they land on me. Not even in a plex (grav) where I sit in a covetor or hulk mining around. The barge wont be warping fast enough to escape and I would have no chance to see the people probing for me because I can't use dscan.

So for me the only thing you guys want : victims.

Sure, other MMOs don't have local, but aren't there safe areas ? Or designated PVP areas ? Because every MMO will loose a lot of player subscription the second you are on the loosing side all the time.

Low WHs don't support corps, a C3 supports 2-3 players only or it starts to get very boring there for days. Better 1-2 players only.
C1 and C2 i think is for single players only.
So there is NO WAY you can set up scouts on all open Entrances/Exits (and/or put bubbles there) and actively scan with probes if new sigs appear (as in : a new WH from somewhere being opened)

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.24 01:24:00 - [65]
 

One of the selling points of this game is the risk and variability.

I would expect that wormholes are going to wreak havoc on long-distance sensor and detection systems.

Maybe even the sleepers won't like them. Twisted Evil




Mentira
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:02:00 - [66]
 

I understand risk and I take the risk all the time, but there is a difference between calculated risk and just risk.
Mining doesn't make a lot of money, not even in a WH. I use it only for local building (ammo, ships, reactions). So I have to question myself, if the calculation will be having me after all on the winning side. Means, will i make more money mining ore until my ship get blown out of the sky or not. I also have to take things into that equation like : cost of barge + fitting, implants etc.

Even with a Covetor the base fitting might be around 35m + 2x +4 implants at least (for the current training) + new clone upgrade. Means I need to mine at least 4 hours in peace just to cover the costs. Then add another 4 hours to have some profit of 80m ISK... that's after all 10m per hour. No thanks!

On the other hand with dscan (or local in 0.0) I can calculate the risk. I need to pay attention, if i don't do it, it is my fault. If I see the probes on scan I run, because my barge can't fight anything.

On your argument is invalid about that they don't know either, if I'm there. It is true, but they have the advantage because they can drop probes without me knowing about it. And i don't get the chance to know about it without dscan. Or a radar so slow, which needs longer to detect the probes than they need to find me. Either way, no indy char is gonna go for it and it is against CCPs goal to bring more industry to 0.0

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.24 18:46:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Mentira


Low WHs don't support corps, a C3 supports 2-3 players only or it starts to get very boring there for days. Better 1-2 players only.
C1 and C2 i think is for single players only.
So there is NO WAY you can set up scouts on all open Entrances/Exits (and/or put bubbles there) and actively scan with probes if new sigs appear (as in : a new WH from somewhere being opened)


You are just a bloody idiot.

C2 can support entire alliances if you actually grow some balls and use your static.

Callic Veratar
Posted - 2011.08.25 19:26:00 - [68]
 

I understand WH concerns with a wide area local-ish scanner. The idea is not to give all space instant feedback of what ships are where in a system, but a fuzzy image of where the active ships are.

Lay on top of that a maximum range to the scanner of a few AU, plus scanning interference on lower-sec systems (plus ship and pos based jammers) with a built in delay, and it will hardly be as effective as the current system.

Especially if turning it on broadcasts your location to other pilots (or sleepers, possibly in the case of wormholes). Yes, you could sit there running it to get better than d-scan intel, but at the same time you're not hidden any more.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.08.26 09:50:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst

Wow, you people insist on sucking the fun out of wormholes, don't you? The last thing we need is something turning wormholes into another version of nullsec with way too much intel for what's supposed to be dangerous space.


I like wormholes also, I lived in a couple for a while. But the information suggested that you could get isn't available on hand. If you really want to find out if there are cloaked ships, where they are etc, you should work for that data and invest in modules, fits and time. Time here is the issue and effort, this information should not be available on short notice when launching a few drones. It should be refined, skilled for and analysed even then it shouldn't be easy.

Its more fun if people can actually find eachother, and if one of those persons can hunt for the other, or turn the tables on the hunter.

Ya Rayah Panala
Posted - 2011.08.26 10:11:00 - [70]
 

Lets keep it realistic for a second here. Light takes 80 minutes to travel from Jupiter to Earth. This scanning system would only work if some minimal delay would be included...

And to be honest, we already have a scanning system, why add a new one?

WHY fix what AINT broken? Local is a CHAT room as important as corp chat. IT should stay as it is.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.26 10:24:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ya Rayah Panala
Local is a CHAT room as important as corp chat. IT should stay as it is.


I agree with this guy a lot. I don't however mind some kind of delay or having cloakers removed from local as long other mechanics are in place to keep it balanced. 3-5 sec cloaking delay from the time activating cloak and unable to activate when logging into space until out of warp.

Ya Rayah Panala
Posted - 2011.08.26 10:44:00 - [72]
 

We went through this many times, the cloak mechanics are alright as they are. People will find ways to exploit it and grief using it (if they can manage not to appear in local until next to a target pewing them, they'll find ways to exploit it too).

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.08.26 12:43:00 - [73]
 

I had this huge wall of text going. But as I was wittling it down and shedding the useless and already implemented parts of my idea, I came to the conclusion that the current system actually works pretty well. I would only make a couple changes.

First, delayed local everywhere. Don't cry yet. Read on. Intel shouldn't be quite so easy.

Second, add a transponder to every ship. (RP excuse: CONCORD has decided we are a getting a little crowded. So they need a method to better track capsuleers while in empire for safety reasons.) It can be implemented by a simple on/off button to the left of your current HUD.

While it is on, the transponder will show your face in local, and your ship info will show in all players' passive scanners as described below. Outside of high-sec, you can turn it off.

Third, the dscan will have active and passive modes. Both modes will display on the tabular scan results interface, and solar system map. The tabular display could be replaced by a graphical one as described above, or perhaps a tactical display overlay with vectors and ranges. These results will not be warpable.

The active mode works the same as the current dscan, except that it will indicate the rough location of cloaked ships, and it will give your presence away to anyone in range of the scan, which leads me to...

The passive mode, which will receive and display all received transponder, active scan, and probe transmissions. It will not give your presence away.

In this way, everyone will still have a way of knowing that someone is in system without the overwhelming benefit of instant local intel, and delayed local chat will still be available. All functionality is retained, except for instant local, and new functionality is added to better improve intel gathering through rewarding increased activity and risk taking.

As far as cloaking and afk cloaking, I think the active scan must be able to detect cloaked ships. Otherwise cloaky gate camps may become rather OP. And there will be no point to afk cloaking as a tool of terror. This can actually allow a smart pilot to find and decloak a ship on grid. So perhaps that is a little too powerful. Maybe just a distance result with no direction.

I also wonder what would happen if one were to cloak with their transponder on. Perhaps they should be interlocked to prevent that, similar to regular modules.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.26 15:41:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 26/08/2011 15:42:37
Originally by: Ciar Meara

I like wormholes also, I lived in a couple for a while. But the information suggested that you could get isn't available on hand. If you really want to find out if there are cloaked ships, where they are etc, you should work for that data and invest in modules, fits and time. Time here is the issue and effort, this information should not be available on short notice when launching a few drones. It should be refined, skilled for and analysed even then it shouldn't be easy.

Its more fun if people can actually find eachother, and if one of those persons can hunt for the other, or turn the tables on the hunter.


There's no problem finding people now in wormholes if you're looking. Not finding someone that's cloaked up somewhere in the hole... who cares? If we know he's there we're prepared anyhow. If we don't know he's there, well, we're prepared as though he is.

We don't need another crutch tool that everyone begins to rely on to see if there's a cloaked ship in the hole. We live in wormholes. Our nuts have already dropped and we're past the "binky" stage. I want to find the cloaked person when he uncloaks, shows up on the overview and my heart starts pumping in my chest, the adrenaline begins to enter the bloodstream and you start to feel truly alive.

We don't need more tools replacing our balls and that overall "Oh ****!" burst of excitement that sneaks up on us.

Faith Shazzer
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:06:00 - [75]
 

There are a lot of great proposal in here and most of them with lowsec/Nullsec in mind, which is of course where the "local"-intel is used the most and where people want it to change

So, to make it easier for this thread and for Ingvar to stop complaining about WH-tactics we should agree that this "advanced" directional-radar scanning is actually not usable in wormholes due to local anomalies in the higher frequency spectrum caused through the sleeper technology.
Pilots in these systems have thus to rely on "old" directional scanners. (the current one)


One problem solved, please go on.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:28:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Faith Shazzer
There are a lot of great proposal in here and most of them with lowsec/Nullsec in mind, which is of course where the "local"-intel is used the most and where people want it to change

So, to make it easier for this thread and for Ingvar to stop complaining about WH-tactics we should agree that this "advanced" directional-radar scanning is actually not usable in wormholes due to local anomalies in the higher frequency spectrum caused through the sleeper technology.
Pilots in these systems have thus to rely on "old" directional scanners. (the current one)


One problem solved, please go on.


Have it fail at all sec levels below -0.95. Twisted Evil Besides, someone has to remind people that there are other folks with a stake in this, not just the null-bunnies.

Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:48:00 - [77]
 

And yet again, a CLOAKING DEVICE is meant to be CLOAKING, not semi-cloaked for 5 mins till someone scans you.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:53:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Souverainiste
And yet again, a CLOAKING DEVICE is meant to be CLOAKING, not semi-cloaked for 5 mins till someone scans you.


Which is exactly why a cloaking device, when active, should remove you from local and remove your ability to see local.


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