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blankseplocked Why do people crash markets?
 
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IceFyre S18
Zulu Labs
Zulu People
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:20:00 - [31]
 

It's just for fat profit, nothing personal.

Of course, for magic to work you should feel your e-peen touched and follow in crashing, to "show" how YOU can do it.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:23:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone
Edited by: Crookies ClawBone on 18/08/2011 13:32:52
As the title says guys im getting anoied with other traders crashing markets i operate in.




You don't have to be in space in low sec to pvp.

Felix Newton
Posted - 2011.08.22 03:52:00 - [33]
 

People could be crashing your markets as there is a quick profit to be made.
These people are not interested in trading your hub or trading the item over the long haul.

They see a quick chance a turning a large inventory of stock at a decent margin (to them), then they move on.

Yes they could make more if they played your 0.1 ISK wars, but they made a quick buck and look for the next crazily over priced item. Make their quick profit there, etc..., etc..

It is a very valid market tactic, and by the time you are moaning on the forum about these certain players, they are on there 5th item down the chain and don't even remember the product your complaining about.


Turn and burn baby.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.22 06:06:00 - [34]
 

Someone might need liquid ISK fast and can't afford to wait while they play .01 isk games with you.
Someone might be trading against long run price trends instead of spending hours playing .01 isk games for a mediocre turnover at a price that won't sell well.
Someone got sick and tired of playing .01 ISK games, and just wants to get out of the market by selling their stock quickly.
Someone might be trying to drive you out of the market.
Someone might have acquired their goods much cheaper than you, and they can still turn a great profit on a crashed market.
Someone might be TRYING to crash the market because they want to buy up goods cheaper.
Someone might be doing the market equivalent of suicide ganking - they are doing it "for the lulz"
Someone might not have been paying attention when they created their sell orders - as in they just sold the items at the market average price.

So many different possible reasons.

Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
Posted - 2011.08.22 11:01:00 - [35]
 

I once thought I had an opportunity to get a 100% marge, so I bought some 70 items elsewhere and set them up on this market.
However, that "opportunity" really was a bubble with the price falling fast (bad research on my part) and on a market that did not trade that much volume on that item anyway. So I set my order up well below the others. I got rid of most of my items with still some 20% or so margin and just in time as a few days later even that was gone.

So, by signifcantly undercutting the others, I still made even a little profit before the market returned to normal, something I wouldn´t have realised if I had engaged in the usual 0.01 ISK war.

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:19:00 - [36]
 

Deep undercutting.

If someone does that to your orders he's not really crashing the market he's just bringing the price closer to the real vallue of the product you're trying to sell at a highly overinflated price.

Also there is no magic "we" or "everyone" that makes less profit.

If he would change his orders once a day and play the 0.01 isk game with that the guy wouldn't make any profit at all.

By deep undercutting the guys drives off the 0.01 undercutters and does make a profit.

So, the guy isn't an idiot, doesn't shoot himself in the foot. The guy clearly makes a profit but cuts into YOUR profits. It's your foot he's shooting in. Who is the idiot now?

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:44:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone
550000*400=220million


Sometimes it's worth to spend 220m to see people cry.

Oh'Freddled Gruntbuggly
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:27:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Molic Blackbird
If you think an sell order is priced to low, buy it up and relist it.


Then watch the price plummet and realise you've been mugged.

Archua Zaul
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:40:00 - [39]
 

Easy way out of this...

1. Watch the margins, if they become unacceptable pull you buy orders and dump your stock.
2. Reinvest the freshly liquidated cash into a more profitable item.
3. Wait for the original item to re-stabilise at a decent margin and if you want to, re-invest.

It happens from time to time, you just have to be up for burning some fees every now and then.

And remember, you pick your margins, if you dont like the margin on an item, cut and run and pick one you do like. There are always other items to invest in that will make similar or better profits.

OllieNorth
Gallente
R-K Industries
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:24:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Oh'Freddled Gruntbuggly
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
If you think an sell order is priced to low, buy it up and relist it.


Then watch the price plummet and realise you've been mugged.



Your name quite literally made me chuckle out loud, I love it.Laughing

Chequer Bones
Posted - 2011.08.23 01:54:00 - [41]
 


Undercut with small amounts to drive the price down --- your goods sell for less when yours get bought.

You have less isk, therefore I win. I want to break your trading market so you have to go mine.

Jacob Stiller
Posted - 2011.08.23 02:37:00 - [42]
 

I sometimes wind up crashing a market when I'm placing a buy order to save some isk on an item I actually want. Someone will try to 0.01 isk me so I start upping the price in bigger and bigger increments. If they're smart, they'll quickly stop chasing me. Other times, though, some fool won't get a clue until half his margin is gone. By the time my buy order is finally filled, a second fool has started to bid against the first fool and the market is f'ed for weeks. All because I wanted to buy one unit. YARRRR!!

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.08.23 04:21:00 - [43]
 

I've been away from Eve for a bit so I've been looking for the good discussion threads. This one looks like a good "pro tips" thread, giving out solid advice to a worthy questioner. So why do I crash markets? I often do it when I screw up. I hope this information helps you, Crookies set up that trade empire you richly deserve.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.23 10:24:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone
Edited by: Crookies ClawBone on 18/08/2011 13:32:52
As the title says guys im getting anoied with other traders crashing markets i operate in.

Is it sheer stupidity or some kind of clever manipulation.

For example when selling an item in the undreds for about 800000isk profit (the difference between buy orders and sell orders) somewon comes in and lists 400 of the item at 350000isk profit. Now 350000 is still significant profit so every other trader just accepts there going be making less and 0.01's the idiot.

But what i ask is why are people so stupid, listing the item 450000isk cheaper doesnt mean they will sell more often with this item and i dont think he farmed the item because they were listed in a stack of exactly 400 which smells like a trader you set a 400 buy order. Also farming 400 of this particular item isnt really possible, in a similar way to implants there is no real way to farm them so to get a quantity of 400 it has to be from a buy order.

So i ask why this idiot shoots himself in the foot and loses 550000*400=220million.

If he bought the item from other trade hubs for cheaper and moved them here he is still stupid to take 550000 less per unit than he needs too.

Am i missing something here or are these people just straght up idiots?


That looks more like old stock wholesale than market crash. Wholesale traders usually go for Jita Sell + Buy / 2 for the price of large quantity batches. This guy went slightly below that hoping that a trader will spot his order and buy his whole stock.

On Bulk Trade mailing list, for example, this price determination method is very common.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:57:00 - [45]
 

Why do people crash markets?

Why do people shoot down other peoples ship?


Because they can!

Kaynas
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:25:00 - [46]
 

Its all based on greed there bro. By crashing it the have a chance of controling it. Welcome to eve btw I trade to my main stay is mining. I trade when the market is good.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:48:00 - [47]
 

If I'm not profiting, why should you?

Degnar Oskold
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:26:00 - [48]
 

I do it just to annoy people (especially the 0.01 ISKers) while making a little bit of money out of it.

At Rens, I noticed Damage Control IIs selling for about 840,000 with buy orders at 620,000. I found a system a region away where 60 DC IIs were selling for 640,000. I bought them all, took them to Rens, put them on the Market for 750,000, and each time I got 0.01ISKed I dropped the price by another 20,000.

I ended up still making a profit on my sales, while 3 days later the price of DCIIs was left around 660,000.

So I made some money while also being able to delight in the fact that someone out there must be having tears about the vanishing fat profit margins on their DC IIs. Making the margin fall from 220,000 to under 80,000must is quite the accomplishment.

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:26:00 - [49]
 

I recommend hoarding it until the price comes close to where you want it. Maybe a little above so you can have room to lower the price.

Kalipoli
Posted - 2011.08.25 21:22:00 - [50]
 

Screw em, and profit off of them. Just like in RL people sell stuff cheap to get rid of it. this guy probably had a set margin and he would get that margin at that price and sell his items faster as they are the cheapest on the market.

These are the people I love, cannot live without them. These people are to lazy to do the proper research and keep a market healthy, by not flooding the market or severely undercutting others prices.

Yes if you buy his product to resell it he will make his margin alternately you will increase your stock and heal the market by resetting the given markets value for that product.

In my opinion this person was not being stupid just lazy. he wanted to make sure no-one undercut him so he set it so low they almost can't. also means with some certainty that he doesn't have to keep on top of his orders with .01 isk game. It doesn't guarantee it but his item will sell faster at the top of the list.



Celeste Benal
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:43:00 - [51]
 

Speaking of, there was an interesting sell-off of Maelstroms in Black Rise recently. Going sell price was about 135M ea. Some person or group of persons suddenly listed a couple dozen for 100M. Making region trading much harder.

They sold like hot-cakes. Market is now back to normal. But was damn annoying as I was trying to unload my own stock.

To whomever said getting prices to go up is hard, I regularly manipulate buy orders to raise prices. I absolutely leveled the Mexallon market in BR a few months ago. Put up some buy orders at the new low price, rode it up to its peak and then resold again. Made a tidy 20% profit on a couple hundred million worth.

It wasn't much. But for a toon that was only a month old with a piddly 100M in starter capital, it was a nice play.

Torva Licentia
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:53:00 - [52]
 

Ask the guys behind Costco and Walmart why "crashing" a local market is good business.

Very simple example: I took my new commerce alt on a tour through the market the other day getting a feel for this and that, and I came across some small hybrid turrets with active buy orders moving steadily at 5k each. Sell orders were 60k+, but they weren't moving. When the price is so high that people are turning up their nose at it, you're not earning as much as you could. I bought a very small amount of these turrets via buy orders and flipped them for 30k. They sold within a matter of hours.

I'd rather buy two turrets for a total of 10k and sell them for 60k than buy one turret for 5k and not sell it at all.

To be fair, this was a very small transaction. I think I bought a total of 5 turrets. I'd be more inclined to think a bit harder about the long-term implications of slashing the common sell order price by 50% if I had 100s (1000s) of units to move.

(And before anyone lols at me for using such a trivial transaction as example, my commerce alt is an experiment/learning tool and has received no funding from my main. 60k is still significant to him.)

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.31 11:50:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
Deep undercutting.

If someone does that to your orders he's not really crashing the market he's just bringing the price closer to the real vallue of the product you're trying to sell at a highly overinflated price.

Also there is no magic "we" or "everyone" that makes less profit.

If he would change his orders once a day and play the 0.01 isk game with that the guy wouldn't make any profit at all.

By deep undercutting the guys drives off the 0.01 undercutters and does make a profit.

So, the guy isn't an idiot, doesn't shoot himself in the foot. The guy clearly makes a profit but cuts into YOUR profits. It's your foot he's shooting in. Who is the idiot now?


That is the correct answer.
+1 karma to that.

Smargle Luxx
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:42:00 - [54]
 

Traditionally market crashes occur when a real big competitor or a central bank wanna bust all the small actors and perhaps buy medium actors for cheap. This creates monopols and at worst oligopols.

Anyway thats in real life. In eve it could simply be someone wanna liqvidate hes stock fast. You dont realy care about big profits in such situations. You just wanna get whatever you can as fast as you can, So you can reinvest it or buy something else(maybe he lost a T3 cruiser).

Anyway it is the economicly responsibility of big actors to quikkly buy them up and relist them unless they fancy their profit cut (in your case half).

DigDoug
Lightspeed Ship Yards
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:57:00 - [55]
 

Why not attempt to talk to the person and see if you can get them to sell their product directly to you at that price and bypass the market completely ?

Calmen
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:20:00 - [56]
 

I do this all the time. I do this for several reasons.

1) If its a good enough price you may trigger a trade route setup in out of game trading helpers
2) It moves the units faster
3) Other traders in this market will just buy my items up and put them back on the market at the price they originally wanted.
4) Profit is profit, I can't have my isk sitting around for weeks doing nothing


Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:16:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Molic Blackbird
If you think an sell order is priced to low, buy it up and relist it. Profit off the supposed stupidity instead of complain. If it isn't profitable to buy it up and relist, then the order isn't priced too low.


This.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.02 09:20:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Zeta Zhul
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
If you think an sell order is priced to low, buy it up and relist it. Profit off the supposed stupidity instead of complain. If it isn't profitable to buy it up and relist, then the order isn't priced too low.


This.


This only works when sophisticated traders out number (in financial resources) the lemmings. My information suggests that a lot of old money is leaving the game, or station spinning.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:46:00 - [59]
 

Its a gamble, as long as I can make SOMETHING before your large order totally crashed the item, I will beat your very very low price and liquidate way faster then you.

Be careful about posting those sell orders, sometimes they work, but most of the time they get pushed wayy behind by the army's of alt station traders by the end of the day.

Anaesthera
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.05 00:05:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone
Edited by: Crookies ClawBone on 18/08/2011 13:32:52
As the title says guys im getting anoied with other traders crashing markets i operate in.
...
Am i missing something here or are these people just straght up idiots?


Because I have the ISK, but I don't have the time or patience.


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