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Crookies ClawBone
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Crookies ClawBone on 18/08/2011 13:32:52
As the title says guys im getting anoied with other traders crashing markets i operate in.

Is it sheer stupidity or some kind of clever manipulation.

For example when selling an item in the undreds for about 800000isk profit (the difference between buy orders and sell orders) somewon comes in and lists 400 of the item at 350000isk profit. Now 350000 is still significant profit so every other trader just accepts there going be making less and 0.01's the idiot.

But what i ask is why are people so stupid, listing the item 450000isk cheaper doesnt mean they will sell more often with this item and i dont think he farmed the item because they were listed in a stack of exactly 400 which smells like a trader you set a 400 buy order. Also farming 400 of this particular item isnt really possible, in a similar way to implants there is no real way to farm them so to get a quantity of 400 it has to be from a buy order.

So i ask why this idiot shoots himself in the foot and loses 550000*400=220million.

If he bought the item from other trade hubs for cheaper and moved them here he is still stupid to take 550000 less per unit than he needs too.

Am i missing something here or are these people just straght up idiots?

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:38:00 - [2]
 

I believe the biggest use of that , and i say i believe as i have tried/done that before usually with succes , is to drive other traders away.The same with people coming in and setting ridiculous high buy orders for certain items.

Crookies ClawBone
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:40:00 - [3]
 

I can understand that fully but even at 350000 isk its still a fairly high 9% profit for an item that you can buy 200 of and sell within about 8 hours (the time im at work)

Devai Starchild
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:40:00 - [4]
 

1. He probably acquired the item for cheaper than you did
2. He doesn't want to bother with 0.01 isking

In short, they care less about the profits than you do

I also wouldn't call that crashing the market. It's pretty normal. If you could expect your price to only change by 0.10 isk in the length of time it took you to sell then trading would be easier than it already is to make money. So get used to it... it's part of trading.

Really crashing the market implies market manipulation, which is done either by:

A. Buying/selling a huge stock in order to change prices in a certain direction
B. Constantly undercutting by a large margin in order to affect prices

In that case, the prices will drop to a certain point where a the manipulator (and everyone else) will buy a ton of stock. Then prices will shoot back up, at which point it will be sold. It might fluctuate in this manner a few times before stabilizing.

The other side is manipulating prices higher, which is more difficult, but to the same effect.

Alternate Poster
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:42:00 - [5]
 

1. Crash Markets
2. ...
3. ...
4. Profit.

P.S. Note the extra ...

Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc.
Not Found.
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Alternate Poster
1. Crash Markets
2. ...
3. ...
4. Profit.

P.S. Note the extra ...


Quoting Alternate Poster to prove she's an alternate poster.

Elise DarkStar
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:46:00 - [7]
 

Most of the time it's because they're not nerdy enough to play market warrior on an internet spaceships game, so they just apply the basic economic principle that lower price = more quantity sold.

Sure the guys who play the margins will just follow the price down, but that's far from everyone who puts up sell orders.

Crookies ClawBone
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:56:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Elise DarkStar
so they just apply the basic economic principle that lower price = more quantity sold.


but this isnt the case with alot of items on eve, when people are fitting a ship, buying minerals to manufacture or items etc they will buy them when they need them for any price which is not unreasonable.

And as to weather or not im exagerating the crashed market this is just one individual example. Another occoured recently with an item that sells 5+ million a day of which i used to sell about 200k at about 200 per unit profit. Somebody selling has been undercutting by 10.00 every time somewon undercuts them untill now the item is worth 20 more for selling than buying and when you factor in broker/tax its not worth ivesting so the market has crashed and is now basically unprofitable for everyone.

Although we all engage in market price wars and market PvP these people dont just ruin profit for their competitors they ruin it for themselves. Another example of this would be cutting a hole in a bucket that you are all trying to share water from, sure your competitors get less water but so do you and everyone is worse off....

In eve lower price does not generally mean more sold if the price is lower if it is an essential item peopple will pay for it anyway.

Atm in the UK gas prices are going up but consumption is not going down because its an essential commodity, people need heat, warm water and gas to cook with in the same way eve players need ammunition for example, eve players will happily pay +/- 10% on amuntion because the NEED it.

Fulbert
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.18 16:41:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Fulbert on 18/08/2011 16:40:57
Making traders like you ragequit the market is indeed a valid tactic, especially if "the idiot" sells his stuff faster than the 0.01isk warriors with their crazily overpriced sell orders.

Molic Blackbird
Gallente
Orion Faction Industries
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:30:00 - [10]
 

If you think an sell order is priced to low, buy it up and relist it. Profit off the supposed stupidity instead of complain. If it isn't profitable to buy it up and relist, then the order isn't priced too low.

AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:53:00 - [11]
 

idiocy is always a reasonable guess.

But perhaps you are not taking into account time. What if, for whatever reasons (RL or EVE obligations), the person knows they will only be updating orders two or three times a week and they would like to sell in in the next couple of weeks. What would you do? I think nothing that involves 0.01 will work. With time constraints, his decision is whether a couple of re-lists will get the profit margin so low traders won't compete and/or buyout yet high enough over the current buy orders to be worth doing the re-lists. Unlike you, 800k profit was never an option for them.

Srioghal moDhream
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:02:00 - [12]
 

People are stupid. Especially in Eve.

Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:05:00 - [13]
 

Because it can be extremely rewarding to do it, then read the tears about it on forums.

And because some people have so much isk, it doesn't "cost" them anything.

Crookies ClawBone
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Fulbert
Edited by: Fulbert on 18/08/2011 16:40:57
Making traders like you ragequit the market is indeed a valid tactic, especially if "the idiot" sells his stuff faster than the 0.01isk warriors with their crazily overpriced sell orders.


thats the thing though it doesnt make traders like me ragequit the market it just makes everyone make less profit, did you even read any of this thread?

Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
idiocy is always a reasonable guess.

But perhaps you are not taking into account time. What if, for whatever reasons (RL or EVE obligations), the person knows they will only be updating orders two or three times a week and they would like to sell in in the next couple of weeks. What would you do? I think nothing that involves 0.01 will work. With time constraints, his decision is whether a couple of re-lists will get the profit margin so low traders won't compete and/or buyout yet high enough over the current buy orders to be worth doing the re-lists. Unlike you, 800k profit was never an option for them.


This makes sense and i can see it that way, thanks for your thoughts.

Originally by: Smodab Ongalot
Because it can be extremely rewarding to do it, then read the tears about it on forums.

And because some people have so much isk, it doesn't "cost" them anything.


I really hope nowons life is so pathetic that they get their kicks from anoying complete strangers on an online computer game?? If there really are people like this i pity them, they probably got bullied at school or something.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:53:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kara Books on 18/08/2011 20:06:58
Edited by: Kara Books on 18/08/2011 20:05:54
Excuse me for my imperfect English and punctuation.

Well, in my case, I crash markets to fool up bots and careless investors.

Bots/careless investors will beat my low price/high order price, I will then penny it waiting for another careless investor, then I quiqly run and make popcorn and watch these 2 ditch it out, they then get the buy orders filled by Careful investors (usually me--I usually wait till they get tired of penny battling each other for the heck of it), Then I crash the sale price systematically while the buy order prices FALL hard, in turn I stock up on that item Royally and chase away competition all at the same time and sell off my items at REAL market value.

Prien
Posted - 2011.08.18 20:33:00 - [16]
 

If a doughnut parks up a shedload of my target stock in one of my trading hubs cheap then I'll just buy the lot and relist it in the same spot at cost plus or whatever I can get away with. Happy Days.

Alternatively I will tow it somewhere else and sell there.

Thank god for market noobs I wish there was more of them Laughing

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.18 20:57:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 18/08/2011 20:59:02
It's all about supply and demand, and the fact that markets stabilize towards the equilibrium price for any given item. He might believe that your 800,000isk profit price is too far above the equilibrium and he doesn't have the desire or time to play .01 isk wars. So instead he selects a price which he believes is closer to the equilibrium. YES, everyone is going to .01 isk his order - but if he is correct and he selected a price which is close enough to equilibrium his order will eventually fill in the long run.

Or he could just be an idiot - especially if he .01 isk's his order after crashing the market like that. It's not clever market manipulation unless he is actually able to drive away/screw over competitors.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:25:00 - [18]
 

Because they're bad drivers?

Angsty Teenager
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:55:00 - [19]
 

I crash the market because I can and I want my items now. Deal with it.


Isabella Addict
Posted - 2011.08.18 22:03:00 - [20]
 

Im newto tradeing, i get **** when i cant get what i want, i see a nice margin and someone keeps 0.01 me..

Retaliaion is to just keep bumping up the price till its no longer worth it to me, screwing him/them upp too..

IF I CANT HAVE IT NOONE CAN!! Evil or Very Mad

Solstice Project
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:31:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Isabella Addict
Im newto tradeing, i get **** when i cant get what i want, i see a nice margin and someone keeps 0.01 me..

Retaliaion is to just keep bumping up the price till its no longer worth it to me, screwing him/them upp too..

IF I CANT HAVE IT NOONE CAN!! Evil or Very Mad


You just reminded me of a tactic against people like you,
which would ... and in your case WILL ... make you even more rage.

Just let me tell you that your so called retaliation ...
... can backfire really hard !

Thanks. :)


Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
Posted - 2011.08.19 03:32:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone

I really hope nowons life is so pathetic that they get their kicks from anoying complete strangers on an online computer game?? If there really are people like this i pity them, they probably got bullied at school or something.


I guess you've never been to low-sec, eh? YARRRR!!

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.19 05:01:00 - [23]
 

1. Post sell orders at WAY too low for competition to make a profit.
2. Competition gets frustrated and cancel their sell others, moving to another hub/investing in another part of the market for the time.
3. Raise prices.
4. Profit.

No ??? needed here.

It looks like this guy is on step 2.

Camden Sine
Posted - 2011.08.19 05:33:00 - [24]
 

I remember I dumped about 3 million units of missiles I had built on market once in Jita. Selling price was ruined for about 2 weeks until the market recovered from such low prices.

Sold it all pretty quick though.

Milla Lekarariba
Minmatar
Capsuleer Profit Sharing Enterprise
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:16:00 - [25]
 

Often, selling that much cheaper can make an item sell quicker, as other traders are likely to snap it up quick and put it back up for sale at the higher price.

Otherwise you are just waiting for those that need to buy the item or their use.

So in short it might be less profit, but it can be quicker profit

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone
Edited by: Crookies ClawBone on 18/08/2011 13:32:52
As the title says guys im getting anoied with other traders crashing markets i operate in.

Is it sheer stupidity or some kind of clever manipulation.

For example when selling an item in the undreds for about 800000isk profit (the difference between buy orders and sell orders) somewon comes in and lists 400 of the item at 350000isk profit. Now 350000 is still significant profit so every other trader just accepts there going be making less and 0.01's the idiot.

But what i ask is why are people so stupid, listing the item 450000isk cheaper doesnt mean they will sell more often with this item and i dont think he farmed the item because they were listed in a stack of exactly 400 which smells like a trader you set a 400 buy order. Also farming 400 of this particular item isnt really possible, in a similar way to implants there is no real way to farm them so to get a quantity of 400 it has to be from a buy order.

So i ask why this idiot shoots himself in the foot and loses 550000*400=220million.

If he bought the item from other trade hubs for cheaper and moved them here he is still stupid to take 550000 less per unit than he needs too.

Am i missing something here or are these people just straght up idiots?
I do it because I don't want to play the .01 isk games. I don't have time for that. I set a price that .01 isk warriors will prolly won't want to touch and I go to sleep. Next day my order is sold and still made a profit. It beats waking up to 30 .01 sell orders below my price.


Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.08.20 14:41:00 - [27]
 

Dunno so much about crashing the whole market, but for me there are usually only 2 moments where I dont go for full profit margin.
Firstly I have only few items and cant be bothered with endless price caring. Then I go directly for a much lower margin in order to sell faster.
Secondly I dont start it, but follow it. I prefer having the 0.01 game in order to have better margins. But if someone is starting to undercut unreasonable, I sometimes use basic margin 5-10% and drop price directly to that amount. Unreasonable is to me if its an undercut like you mentioned from 800k to 400k but with normal stacks behind it. Like if I sell 1000 units A for 800k and someone goes with 1-2 units to 600k I dont care about it. But if its also with 100-1000 units its "unreasonable" to me. Cause then the prices will be harmed lasting.


Dane El
Posted - 2011.08.20 16:00:00 - [28]
 

Several reasons for me.

1. Because I don't care about that margin. I sell 60 - 70 some odd items over 5 stations. I usually have 250 - 300 sell orders open at a time. If you annoy me with undercutting I'm completely fine ruining my profit margin on a single item in a single station to make you go away. I don't want to play undercutting games with the volume I deal with.

2. Some times its necessary to liquidate existing stocks at near cost to get out of a bad purchase.

3. I don't like spending a lot of time typing out prices to be just a bit cheaper than the next guy. I generally just knock the price down at 10,000 or 100,000 isk level to beat the competition when I do update orders. Less chances of a typo and less keystrokes to get the job done. It also helps to achieve goal #1.

4. I purchased the items at a steep discount and I'm leveraging that to hurt other traders rather than make a huge profit. When I score on a cheap regional buy order I typically sell those goods well below normal prices because I still make plenty of profit and it stresses out other traders. (See this post.)


Anya Ohaya
Posted - 2011.08.21 02:33:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Crookies ClawBone

But what i ask is why are people so stupid, listing the item 450000isk cheaper doesnt mean they will sell more often with this item


That seems unlikely. Items with perfectly inelastic demand are pretty much non-existent.

Decesse
Posted - 2011.08.21 02:44:00 - [30]
 

Because people try to do it to me all of the time, So I have to show them how to do it correctly sometimes.


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