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blankseplocked A theory on wormholes, the sleepers, the sanshas, the jove and more.
 
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Sanai Morden
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:55:00 - [1]
 

Indulge me for a few minutes capsuleers, I do not know if any of this, or even all of this, has been said before, but I have a theory about the very nature of the ancient races, and the future of the five empires.
First, take into account the interesting coincidence that there are five current empires (Being the Gallente, the Amarr, the Minmatar, the Caldari, and of course the Sansha Nation), and that there are five ancient races (the Sleepers, the Takmahl, the Yan Jung, the Talocan and the Terrans).Then of course, there are the Jove, who are so powerful and mysterious and old that they must be considered a sixth race of ancients.
Now, we can probably eliminate one of the six ancient races as being the race of myth and legend that brought us through the wormhole of wormholes, the legendary Eve Gate. That brings us back to 5 ancient races, and 5 current empires.

Next, consider the recent opening of wormholes, and the seeming involvement of both the Jove and the Sanshas. These wormholes can obviously take us lightyears through space in moments, but consider also the possibility that they could also take us through time as well as space. Also consider the seemingly ambiguous motives- why would the Jove allow the Sansha's to have their technology? Whether they gave it away, or whether it was taken from them, there must be a reason it was allowed to happen, especially considering the Jovian's powerful, interfering influence on the empires in the past (capsule tech, concord and the angels).

Finally consider that no matter where wormhole space takes us, in these systems that have supposedly never before known the influence of the empires- that every planet has floating silently above it, a planetary customs office, identical to the ones that only in recent years were put up in orbit of all empire planets.

Now it is time to tie it all together. Here is what I think may explain everything. The matching number of ancient and current empires, and all of the other events and facts are not coincidence. The Gallente, Caldrai, Amarr, Minmatar and Sanshas, are the Sleepers, Yan Jung, Takmahl, Talocan and the Jove. When we travel through the wormholes, we travel through time and space, into the future, our future. Note the fact that the Sleepers left behind hives of powerful drones, drones and stations that strikingly resemble gallente technology. Note that each of the other dead ancient races is found within a certain empires space, and the fact that the Jovians and the Sanshas not only seem to work together at times, but have many similarities, such as the penchant for cybernetically and genetically engineering themselves to afford great progress and evolution.

So you might ask, why then the Jovian interference in events? Simple. A powerful and ancient race, that is currently dying, and has the technology to take advantage of time travelling wormholes, is trying to influence its own past, and the past of the other great races, to save themselves in the future. They travelled back through the wormholes, moved their entire empire into their own past, to prepare the great empires for the future that they themselves come from. They are helping the Sanshas gain ascendacy because if the Sansha Nation dies out, the Jovian Empire will be weakened in the future. They aren't giving the Sansha wormhole tech in exchange for a cure for now, they want the Sansha to have the means, and the knowledge of the future, to cure the Jovian disease before it even happens. The sleeper ruins could even be a similar ruse. The wormholes opened at the dawn of a time of great conflict, and it is in times of great conflict and dire need that humanity ascends to greater levels of progress and technology, and as such the wormholes opened, giving us access to the sleeper ruins, and the secrets and technology locked within has already brought great wealth and progress, as well as evolutionary conflict.

The final mystery is what are those monoliths?

Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:22:00 - [2]
 

Considering the fact that the Takmahls are no more, perhaps less, "ancient" than the Amarr Empire (read discussion chapter on the Takmahls here) how does that add to your number theory?

Nakal Ashera
Posted - 2011.08.18 10:46:00 - [3]
 

For a world of easy anwsers, am I right?

I'm afraid to say that your theory does not hold very much weight. As has already been mentioned, at least one of the ancient Empires shares a common historical root with an existing one, and in many ways their technology is not utterly superior to our own. The same is true of the Yan Jung, more or less, with only the Talocans and Sleepers being a total mystery. We even have a fairly rough idea of Jovian history, alongside a bunch of less advanced Jovian technology scattered around Curse and other areas they occupied in the past. So... Much of what you say is incredibly unlikely, if not impossible.


Yumi Hikare
Amarr
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:33:00 - [4]
 

The mistaken anthropology aside, time travel, at least in the sense of moving backwards through it, is essentially impossible, wormholes or no.

A wormhole is not an inter-dimensional portal, it is a tunnel through space, with time providing the extra dimension to give it substance, of a sort. Every time you jump through a wormhole you arrive in concurrent time and space, much like driving through an underpass on a hovercar. In order for one to be able to pass through time, one would have to be able to perceive a tunnel made of time, bounded by some fifth dimension. When you have an instrument that can detect time, let me know. Notice I say detect, and not measure (a watch or clock is not a time-detection device!).

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.08.18 16:21:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Ammzi on 18/08/2011 16:21:49
Originally by: Yumi Hikare
The mistaken anthropology aside, time travel, at least in the sense of moving backwards through it, is essentially impossible, wormholes or no.

A wormhole is not an inter-dimensional portal, it is a tunnel through space, with time providing the extra dimension to give it substance, of a sort. Every time you jump through a wormhole you arrive in concurrent time and space, much like driving through an underpass on a hovercar. In order for one to be able to pass through time, one would have to be able to perceive a tunnel made of time, bounded by some fifth dimension. When you have an instrument that can detect time, let me know. Notice I say detect, and not measure (a watch or clock is not a time-detection device!).


You're incorrect. Bind the wormhole theory together with the theory of relativity and you have means of travelling through time and back.
Imagine two wormholes being created in the year 1. A (entrance) and B (exit).
Take wormhole A into a spaceshuttle and start travelling in one direction, let wormhole B stay at a planet. Now if you were to travel with regular propulsion at speeds close to the speed of light you and your shuttle (and wormhole) would start to deviate from the current time of the other wormhole (B).

Now because time evolves slower for your shuttle and wormhole entrance (A) than the exit wormhole we have a scenario where if you return to the planet and put up the wormholes next to each other you would have the following:

A = the wormhole entrance, but it is only 6 years old and is thus connected to a wormhole exit B which is 6 years old.
B = the wormhole exit, but it is 10 years old and is this connected to a wormhole entrance A which is 10 years old.

You now have the option to step into either and travel 4 years back or forth in time.

Rhavas
Minmatar
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:53:00 - [6]
 

I proposed a similar time travel theory via my associate and former publisher Arvash about a year ago, based on the factual information Ammzi mentions. Specifically, what cannot happen is that you cannot go back in time beyond the point at which the time stream started. Hypothetically, this would be either the Seyllin Incident, or experimentations with Isogen-5 technology prior to Seyllin, or the origination of the Eve Gate.

Due to relativity, as Ammzi notes, one system or the other could be moving at near-light speed away from the other, thus moving one or the other into the future from a relativistic point of view.

As Yumi notes, a clock is not a "time detection" device, but synchronized clocks are quite useful for measuring relativistic effects.

Arek'Jaalan is working on many of these fronts, and I'd encourage those interested to join in the work.


Yumi Hikare
Amarr
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.19 06:35:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Yumi Hikare on 20/08/2011 01:48:10
Originally by: Ammzi
Edited by: Ammzi on 18/08/2011 16:21:49
Originally by: Yumi Hikare
The mistaken anthropology aside, time travel, at least in the sense of moving backwards through it, is essentially impossible, wormholes or no.

A wormhole is not an inter-dimensional portal, it is a tunnel through space, with time providing the extra dimension to give it substance, of a sort. Every time you jump through a wormhole you arrive in concurrent time and space, much like driving through an underpass on a hovercar. In order for one to be able to pass through time, one would have to be able to perceive a tunnel made of time, bounded by some fifth dimension. When you have an instrument that can detect time, let me know. Notice I say detect, and not measure (a watch or clock is not a time-detection device!).


You're incorrect. Bind the wormhole theory together with the theory of relativity and you have means of travelling through time and back.
Imagine two wormholes being created in the year 1. A (entrance) and B (exit).
Take wormhole A into a spaceshuttle and start travelling in one direction, let wormhole B stay at a planet. Now if you were to travel with regular propulsion at speeds close to the speed of light you and your shuttle (and wormhole) would start to deviate from the current time of the other wormhole (B).

Now because time evolves slower for your shuttle and wormhole entrance (A) than the exit wormhole we have a scenario where if you return to the planet and put up the wormholes next to each other you would have the following:

A = the wormhole entrance, but it is only 6 years old and is thus connected to a wormhole exit B which is 6 years old.
B = the wormhole exit, but it is 10 years old and is this connected to a wormhole entrance A which is 10 years old.

You now have the option to step into either and travel 4 years back or forth in time.



Makes sense on paper, but once again, you are met with a practical impossibility. How can one move the entrance of a wormhole, let alone place it inside a spaceship without it destroying said spaceship? We know how to open a wormhole, and navigate one. But unless we find some way to a) move a wormhole opening away from its point of origin/creation (keep in mind, that because a wormhole is a tunnel through space-time, moving it would mean space would have to be stretched. To stretch it in such a manner and to accelerate it to near the speed of light would probably require energy on a scale far beyond even the most powerful ship reactor) b) anchor that opening inside of a spacecraft without the spacecraft imploding or collapsing into the wormhole.

Furthermore, it is terribly impractical to have to wait for relativity over a period of many years to create that time gap, you essentially lose the time you would gain by going back by the very fact that you had to wait to do it in the first place.

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.08.19 11:13:00 - [8]
 

Indeed, there are many "ifs" and "buts" in what I described, but you said it was essentially impossible. I described a theory in which such would be possible even though we might not have figured parts of underlying theory out yet. These are only limited by our current scientific capabilities.

Saul Dhampir
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:22:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 19/08/2011 14:09:25
Your theory is nonsense. It is not even consistent within itself. At one point you talk about Terrans, then later it's Jove.

The history of humanity is pretty well known and documented on a low resolution level. All cultures, current and past stem from the original explorers, the Terrans, who we all ultimately are. The fact that (we) Terrans entered this area of space via the EvE gate is, I think more or less the accepted theory, even if we lack absolute proof. The Jove are the oldest remnant of Humanity from the deep past, following the collapse. There is a eight millenia dark age of which we know little about, but it is probably from this period that what we now call Sleepers originated, along with the Yan Jung and Talocan. Of course eight thousand years is a long time, and non of these cultures were necessarily contemporaries. Additionally there will no doubt have been several other Human cultures that rose and fell and whose remnants remain to be discovered.

As already stated the Takmahls are more greatly understood, having links to the early Amarr Empire and the Blood Raiders. They are a much more recent culture.

As an aside I have my own theory that points at the Sleepers possibly being a remnant of part of the Jovian Second Age and/or an attempt be 'some' Jove to escape the Jovian disease by becoming an upload society. I do not however have any solid proof to back this idea up at this time.



 

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