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blankseplocked CCP allows some market bots?
 
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Marchocias
Posted - 2011.08.19 18:37:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 19/08/2011 18:29:42
Thank you for agreeing with me good sir. I just wish some people would read the EULA.


Always a pleasure!

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:01:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Quetazal
I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them?

Most of people who protest against similar tools or its features are owners/users or even developers of specialized private tools which do the same "unholy" things.

Originally by: malaire
If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information?


To prevent total automation of trade analysis.
Total means "without need to launch the game".

Originally by: Don ColLeonie
Just for proof.

So you can thank me too :-)

http://eve-search.com/thread/1228370/page/5#149

Thank you a lot for the inspiration! Smile Also my thanks for those people who sent interesting feature request which have designated further development!

Also I'd like to thank malaire for this interesting discussion. It so happened that this topic is the greatest tool advertisement since I've released it Very Happy I even posted it on my site.

In addition...

Tool is free, available for all and legit for now. Use or no - it's your own decision. But it should not influence other's decisions.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:15:00 - [153]
 

Mentat, the Master of Assassins?

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:21:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart
Mentat, the Master of Assassins?

What? o_0
The origin of tool's name is here.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:23:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 19/08/2011 19:25:03
Originally by: Thart
Originally by: Jon Taggart
Mentat, the Master of Assassins?

What? o_0
The origin of tool's name is here.


Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said!

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:36:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart

Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said!

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins

Oh, that's clear now ;)

Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :)

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.08.19 19:40:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 19:40:17
Originally by: Thart
Originally by: Jon Taggart

Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said!

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins

Oh, that's clear now ;)

Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :)


Ooooh - read the book mate... its definately one of the finest sci fi books about! Warning - its quite long.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.19 20:14:00 - [158]
 

Interesting thread for sure.

Originally by: Marchocias
Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 19:40:17
Originally by: Thart
Originally by: Jon Taggart

Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said!

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins

Oh, that's clear now ;)

Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :)


Ooooh - read the book mate... its definately one of the finest sci fi books about! Warning - its quite long.


Warning 2: The first quarter of the book is sort of slow. I haev heard of many people that do not get through the book because of this, but I believe the first quarter or so is integral in defining the motivations that drive Paul.


Slade

Sheeshakan
Posted - 2011.08.19 20:28:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Elanor Gaiser
Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.

And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed.

Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.)


This. I will start using mining bots if they say market bots are okay.

malus mendax
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:01:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Sheeshakan
Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Elanor Gaiser
Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.

And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed.

Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.)


This. I will start using mining bots if they say market bots are okay.


And i'll start riding you mom to school, if you start using mining bots.

Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.19 23:05:00 - [161]
 

I really do not see the issue with this, its hardly a bot, just a fancy data collector. EVE players are always finding better ways to do the things they love to do in eve. Maybe CCP should shutdown the api servers as well and remove all the export functions?

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.19 23:11:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 23:12:08
Just a fancy data collector:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559963

yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference?

Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:07:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 23:12:08
Just a fancy data collector:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559963

yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference?


There are actually several differences:
1) its performing an action that directly effects game play (flashing the red light), its not just gathering data.
2) Its scraping the client itself, not just cache files. (ccp could easily stop the reading of cache files if they chose to)
3) Its not using any of the ccp provided methods
4) There is no export function to get any data from local, there is for market data

There was another program like this, CCP changed how the log server worked, I haven't seen any effort by ccp to stop cache data sc****rs, I've actually seen ccp give direction on changes in cache.

Callean Drevus
Caldari
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping
Silent Infinity
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:34:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Callean Drevus on 20/08/2011 00:37:33
malaire, my character is ready to virtually strangle yours. I really cannot wait for CCP to implement Incarna. Seldom has someone succeeded in getting me so worked up about a certain topic.

Just of your information, I'm the developer of EVE Marketeer and I will be hard at work on making instant notifications possible, thanks for the suggestion! Wink

You will NOT take my reason for liking and playing EVE from me! (well, you will not anyway, but you will hopefully not trigger a negative CCP response)

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:44:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Roark
Originally by: Sjugar
yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference?


There are actually several differences:
1) its performing an action that directly effects game play (flashing the red light), its not just gathering data.

So the only difference is that the Mentat developer forgot to add automated notification? It's dirt easy to changing things to read the cache files regularly and check for the need to update, then alert the user.

And what exactly is the difference between a red light on your keyboard versus a red table cell?

Originally by: Johnathan Roark
2) Its scraping the client itself, not just cache files. (ccp could easily stop the reading of cache files if they chose to)

Why is it 'just cache files'? The tool above only sc****s 'just the screen', they're both just data the client dumps into RAM buffers.

Originally by: Johnathan Roark
3) Its not using any of the ccp provided methods

So cache files were provided by CCP?

Originally by: Johnathan Roark
4) There is no export function to get any data from local, there is for market data

At 1 hour intervals... We also get export functions for solar system statistics.

Oh... wait... that means there _IS_ export functions to get some data from local... Does that mean everything else you said this thread is wrong too? I think it does.

Callean Drevus
Caldari
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping
Silent Infinity
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:55:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
So the only difference is that the Mentat developer forgot to add automated notification? It's dirt easy to changing things to read the cache files regularly and check for the need to update, then alert the user.

And what exactly is the difference between a red light on your keyboard versus a red table cell?

Why is it 'just cache files'? The tool above only sc****s 'just the screen', they're both just data the client dumps into RAM buffers.

So cache files were provided by CCP?


Of course it's dirt easy to notify the user, that's the whole point of the thing. It isn't useful if the user doesn't know of it, whether it's by a red table cell, or a message in his mailbox doesn't matter as far as functionality is concerned.

The cache file is actually not sc****d off the screen, or out of RAM, it is readable on disk. Technically, they, and all the rest of the client, are provided by CCP, I do not understand the question...

I think the difference between the two is somewhere in the magnitude of the ingame advantage :)

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:16:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Callean Drevus
I think the difference between the two is somewhere in the magnitude of the ingame advantage :)

Yes, I agree... The magnitude is completely different.

For one, you're just risking the loss of a couple million ISK at most, while the other we're talking billions upon billions in ISK.

Callean Drevus
Caldari
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping
Silent Infinity
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:40:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
For one, you're just risking the loss of a couple million ISK at most, while the other we're talking billions upon billions in ISK.


I submit defeat Razz

But no, actually, I think what you are saying is wrong, it takes a looong time to earn an ingame advantage of billions upon billions of ISK, especially when you assume that people are still updating their orders too, and you still have to be at your PC for forever, have your client running, and be able to update an order.
I think you'll have much more influence on the game if you blow up other people's ships because you are notified they are there.

Also, take into account the unique nature of the trader, we have no tools other than the market window, we should be allowed to have our guns and cargo scanners too :) I would love CCP to implement this ingame, but frankly, that's just not too high on their list of priorities (and rightly so) I think.

I actually think the blinking red light is awesome :) you might have noticed my post in that topic before it was closed. I really couldn't care one way or another whether someone reads something that's on his screen already. Information is everything, making it accessible in an easy way should be celebrated, not condemned. COMPLETE automation is what I'm troubled by.

Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.20 02:36:00 - [169]
 

Lets look at the next step after you get said notification:

Hostile Alert System:
We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc.
End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play.

Market scanning bot w/ notification:

We first have to evaluate if its economically viable to lower our price, depending on our margins, we may want to, we may not.
If we do lower our price, the aggressor can either lower his price, buy our stock and resell at his higher price, move goods to a different area. Also, I would like to mention, since EVE prides itself for have a very realistic market, that stock trading software has automatic stop-loss sells, retailers do tons of data mining (those little plastic cards the grocery stores give you aren't for discounts).

Something that both of these systems have is they both require a human to make the final decision. I also can see the possibility of driving prices down, buying up the cheap stock and selling it for higher, especially if someone isn't paying attention.

Dragonaire
Caldari
Corax.
PURgE Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.20 04:04:00 - [170]
 

Quote:
Hostile Alert System: We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc. End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play.
And that would be a bad thing in what way Evil or Very Mad

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.20 19:02:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Dragonaire
Quote:
Hostile Alert System: We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc. End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play.
And that would be a bad thing in what way Evil or Very Mad
Any worse then a marketorder alerter?

Jenny Aakiwa
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:01:00 - [172]
 

*Sigh* Another care-bear tears thread. You know, Malaire, it already been developed and it not going to be given up so easily. Think about it anyway, if someone have 315 market orders, do you think it is REALLY possible for them to go through all of that orders "your way" without being affected mentally. Most people would quit trading just from going through one time in all 315 market orders. Rolling Eyes This program just allow us to expand our capacity to complete in the market.

Wendelgard
Gallente
Herrscher der Zeit
Smacked Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:06:00 - [173]
 

I personally do not object using marketdata bots not say that I am very glad about their existence. First of all, they enable one to plan how many units of ore or ice respektivly to dig to get a given amout of ISK. The other advantage of such massively harvested data one is enabled to have a rough idea about ones assets worth.

The only massively drawback of a complete market scan is already mentioned. It takes a long period but so what? So if you have canceled a mission shortly before you do not want run another disfavoured mission, that is the time you can use to scan.

/Wendelgard

isk4trade
Caldari
Cogitation Mining and Industrial Trading
Posted - 2011.08.27 11:19:00 - [174]
 


OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ...

What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK!

me

Jenny Aakiwa
Posted - 2011.08.27 14:15:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: isk4trade

OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ...

What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK!

me


I agree with you there.

Barakach
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:13:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: isk4trade

OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ...

What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK!

me


Pencils?! HA! Can't use pencils either, that's cheating. Heck, left hemishpere of the brain helps too much.

If CCP doesn't want it, they can remove the javascript API interaction. They added it for a reason.


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