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blankseplocked Vent About Computers, GPU's, And My Own stupidity
 
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Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 17:11:54
Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 17:11:26
I recently bought a VTX3D1GB Radeon HD 5750 PCI-E 2.1 Graphics card and stupidly didn't check to see if it had the right pc-i slot, of course, my PC didn't. instead only a pc-i express x1 (my terms are probably incorrect) slot was found, and there aren't any other slots. This is a brand new pc and I'm bloody annoyed that it can't behave like one and grow a damn slot. So, it there any way I can get this to work without buying a new computer, or settling for a crap gpu?

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:46:00 - [2]
 

Take the old video card out, insert your new video card in.


Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:53:00 - [3]
 

I forgot to mention I'm currently using on-board graphics. Confused

Zagam
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:14:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kass Rasaan
Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 17:11:54
Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 17:11:26
I recently bought a VTX3D1GB Radeon HD 5750 PCI-E 2.1 Graphics card and stupidly didn't check to see if it had the right pc-i slot, of course, my PC didn't. instead only a pc-i express x1 (my terms are probably incorrect) slot was found, and there aren't any other slots. This is a brand new pc and I'm bloody annoyed that it can't behave like one and grow a damn slot. So, it there any way I can get this to work without buying a new computer, or settling for a crap gpu?

Nope. Return video card, buy PCI-E x16 (1.0) card.

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:19:00 - [5]
 

Alright Zagam. Now I'm just wondering, I paid 70 for this GPU, how well would a x16 gpu of the same price perform in comparison to this one? Or does it not work like that? (as in x16 GPU's are always cheaper)

My layman status is shining through quite brightly isnt it?

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:33:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Caleidascope on 17/08/2011 18:33:02

My cheap ass 70 dollar motherboard has one full size pci express slot and one x1 pci express slot.

I hope you bought the cheapest computer they sold, because they sure used cheap parts to build you computer.

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:46:00 - [7]
 

I have no idea how you dont have a PCI -E slot...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:56:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 19:07:22

Excuse me, but what exactly is the problem ?
PCI-E 1.0, PCI-E 2.0 (and any other PCI-E versions) slots and cards are (usually) both forwards and backwards compatible with eachother (that's why the slots and the card pin grouping is so weird, to allow them to be inserted in any combination).
Just stick your video card in the slot already - if it physically fits (i.e. if both are PCI-E), it will work.
The "x" number is the "number of PCI-E lanes" the slot and/or card can handle (each lane needs 4 pins). The hardware auto-negotiates the highest possible data throughput rate based on available common lanes.
At most you'll experience a slightly slower performance than what you'd have expected (no, it's NOT dropping linear with number of lanes, a x16 card in a x4 slot will still work at 90% of the FPS or thereabouts).

EDIT: Unless you mean you only have a PCI slot (NOT a PCI-Express slot) or an AGP slot.

Also, what exactly are the DETAILED specs for the PC you purchased, and how much did you pay for it ?

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 19:00:32

Excuse me, but what exactly is the problem ?
PCI-E 1.0, PCI-E 2.0 (and any other PCI-E versions) slots and cards are (usually) both forwards and backwards compatible with eachother.
Just stick your video card in the slot already - if it physically fits, it will work.
At most you'll experience an ever slightly slower performance than what you'd have expected.

EDIT: Unless you mean you only have a PCI slot (NOT a PCI-Express slot) or an AGP slot.

Also, what exactly are the DETAILED specs for the PC you purchased, and how much did you pay for it ?

The way I understand the OP, he has x1 pci express slot, he does not have x16 pci express slot. As you know the x16 pci express slot is the full size slot which is what normal video cards need. As far as I can tell, the OP does not have the x16 slot, all he has is the x1 slot.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:08:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 19:33:52

Originally by: Caleidascope
As far as I can tell, the OP does not have the x16 slot, all he has is the x1 slot.

So his video card will work at 75-85% of peak FPS on average (with some occasional hiccups).
Not really such a terrible deal.

P.S. He might need to saw off some plastic from the motherboard x1 slot back side (if it wasn't designed with an open back end), which might void his warranty.
Plus, a x16 card in a x1 slot might have some vibration stability issues, so hopefully he won't shake his machine too much.

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Caleidascope
As far as I can tell, the OP does not have the x16 slot, all he has is the x1 slot.

So his video card will work at 75-85% of peak speed. Not really such a terrible deal.

Eh? You can plug full size pci express video card into x1 slot?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:19:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 19:54:16

Originally by: Caleidascope
Eh? You can plug full size pci express video card into x1 slot?

You should be able to plug any sized PCI-E card in any (larger) sized PCI-E slot most of the time without any modification.
A plastic end-cap removal job on the motherboard slot should take care of any of the other situations (where the card is longer than the slot AND the end cap is sealed instead of open on the back side of the motherboard slot).

P.S. Electrical pinout is (on one side, similar on other side - transmit and receive are on opposite side 2 pins apart, ground on the other side, insertion detection at end of typical slot instead of a ground, some reserved pins instead of ground too):

1-11 : common setup

[ a large space//notch between pin 11-12 ]

12-13 : still common setup
14-17 : data lane 0 plus last pin also insertion detection
18 : ground ................................................ x1 slot ends here
19-22 : data lane 1
23-26 : data lane 2
27-30 : data lane 3
31 : insertion detection
32 : ground ................................................ x4 slot ends here
33-36 : data lane 4
37-40 : data lane 5
41-44 : data lane 6
45-48 : data lane 7 and insertion detection
49 : ground ........................................... x8 slot ends here
50-53 : data lane 8
54-57 : data lane 9
58-61 : data lane 10
62-65 : data lane 11
66-69 : data lane 12
70-73 : data lane 13
74-77 : data lane 14
78-81 : data lane 15 and insertion detection
82 : ground ............................................ x16 slot ends here

There are also x32 slots but almost nobody uses them - you can guess the pinout for that one Wink


P.P.S. There is a small chance that if you modify the slot to open its back so you can physically insert the larger card, the motherboard won't be able to negotiate the lower data rate, but that usually can be solved in most cases with a motherboard BIOS update.

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:06:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 20:08:02
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 19:07:22Also, what exactly are the DETAILED specs for the PC you purchased, and how much did you pay for it ?


This should help:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c02568761&tmp_task=prodinfoCategory&cc=gb&dlc=en&lc=en&product=4229101


Also I paid around 400 for it, a bit less I think.

And the motherboard specs:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c02556928&lc=en&cc=gb&dlc=en&product=4229101



Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:18:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 20:25:15

Originally by: Kass Rasaan
likified
Also I paid around 400 for it, a bit less I think.

AARGH, HP ! What the hell were you thinking ? Seriously ?!?
Yup, there you go, just two bloody PCI Express x1 slots.

HP is overpriced as hell, for starters.
You would have gotten a much better machine for far less money if you would have built it yourself.
SEE HERE.
Your current machine, I would hesitate to appraise it even at 200 GBP (probably more like 150 GBP).

I see two big problems here.

One, to use ANY graphics cards (because I doubt anybody manufactures x1 ones, but you never know, you might find some) you will need to saw off the plastic end of one of those x1 PCI-E slots so you can insert the card.
This will almost certainly void any warranty you might have, which you might not want to do.

Two, HP has a bloody knack for doing something weird with their power supplies - they custom-order non-standard power connector motherboards (so only their own custom non-standard PSUs can be used) and also place in PSUs that are barely above the minimum needed for that particular machine.
So, even if you COULD physically insert any video card in there with or without voiding your warranty, there's a strong chance that it won't work because the PSU would not be able to provide enough power for it, and your machine will simply end up rebooting whenever you try to run any 3D accelerated things.

If you can return the bloody machine for a refund even at HALF PRICE, do so immediately !
And build a new - BETTER - one yourself from scratch, for that half-price refund.

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:33:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kass Rasaan on 17/08/2011 20:34:50
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 20:25:15

Originally by: Kass Rasaan
likified
Also I paid around 400 for it, a bit less I think.

AARGH, HP ! What the hell were you thinking ? Seriously ?!?
Yup, there you go, just two bloody PCI Express x1 slots.

HP is overpriced as hell, for starters.
You would have gotten a much better machine for far less money if you would have built it yourself.
SEE HERE.
Your current machine, I would hesitate to appraise it even at 200 GBP (probably more like 150 GBP).

I see two big problems here.

One, to use ANY graphics cards (because I doubt anybody manufactures x1 ones, but you never know, you might find some) you will need to saw off the plastic end of one of those x1 PCI-E slots so you can insert the card.
This will almost certainly void any warranty you might have, which you might not want to do.

Two, HP has a bloody knack for doing something weird with their power supplies - they custom-order non-standard power connector motherboards (so only their own custom non-standard PSUs can be used) and also place in PSUs that are barely above the minimum needed for that particular machine.
So, even if you COULD physically insert any video card in there with or without voiding your warranty, there's a strong chance that it won't work because the PSU would not be able to provide enough power for it, and your machine will simply end up rebooting whenever you try to run any 3D accelerated things.

If you can return the bloody machine for a refund even at HALF PRICE, do so immediately !
And build a new - BETTER - one yourself from scratch, for that half-price refund.



Thanks for the info, I've quickly looked at your suggestion and find it quite appealing, I have about 100 of spare cash sitting around and I can save up for some time and have the money I need, just one more thing, do you reccomend me returning the GPU I bought, or should I keep it and put it towards building the PC?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:36:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 20:46:17

The card you bought should be quite sufficient for EVE, feel free to keep it.
You could return it (if you get most or all of the money back) if you might want a faster one, but if all you want is single-client EVE, it's not really necessary.

The rest of the machine I mentioned as an example costs only around 200 GBP without the video card (which you already have), so you can try to return your current machine (burn your personal data on a few DVDs first or copy it somewhere else, of course) or even sell it to some other poor sod for the extra 100 you need.

P.S. Of course, some of those particular parts linked in the example config may no longer be available (like the motherboard, for instance, I just checked), but you should be able to find something similar at roughly the same price.

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:53:00 - [17]
 

Thanks for the help, even if I should have known better.Smile I should have this at least started before the year is out.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:58:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 21:05:10

Speaking of PSUs...

Oh, boy, I just re-checked the specs you linked... the PSU has a 180W rating ! UNGH Evil or Very Mad
The video card you got needs half of that (a bit under 90W), your CPU needs again about as much (100W just to be on the safe side), nothing leftover for motherboard and the other things (which should be at least 50W, preferably more than 75W though), let alone the slack you should usually leave for various reasons (usually at least 20%).
The PSU is barely enough for what's already in there, as expected Mad

A 350W PSU would have been enough, maybe even a 300W (not really recommendable), but 180W ? No way in hell would that video card be able to function in that machine even if you managed to stick it in.

NeoShocker
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:59:00 - [19]
 

Just ouch my peasant OP. Should have considered the PSU before buying the card. Well... Consider it a lesson learned. Next time build a PC :-)

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:41:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 17/08/2011 23:57:04
Edited by: Astenion on 17/08/2011 23:45:13
If you want a nice GPU, you need at least a 500 watt power supply. 180 watts? Will the machine even turn on with a GPU installed with that?

And to be honest, I'd return that GPU and get anything nVidia. ATI has TERRIBLE drivers and their cards burn out after about two years. They are faster, however, but they're faster because they're made to run hotter than others. However, the hotter they run, the faster they're going to wear out. Just something to keep in mind. Oh, and by "faster" I mean they can render faster than some of nVidia's cards, but it doesn't really matter since said rendering will be invisible to the naked eye. Basically you're buying geek specs that no one cares about, and when your card burns out, your buddy will still be playing on his nVidia.

Never buy a desktop HP. Ever. Laptops are forgivable because they're laptops and basically impossible to upgrade anyway; buying a laptop is like buying a brand new car...you're just wasting money because you're not gonna keep it. However, they serve their purpose so a laptop for gaming is more like a luxury item rather than a serious gaming rig.

Find a reputable computer shop that builds computers and take a look at the parts they use. If you have any questions about the quality, the people here should be able to help you. ALWAYS BUILD YOUR OWN COMPUTER. If you don't know how, the shop will build it for you. You just tell them the specs you want and come back within a week and it's done. The good thing about this is you can go see them face to face if you have any problems, instead of talking to some customer service rep in India.

Get something at least with a quad core, 4-6 gigs of RAM, three fans, 600 watt power supply, quality sound card of your choice (anything reputable works just fine, you don't have to get all audiophile with sound cards unless you have a recording studio), any nVidia GTX video card, a DVD-R and a 500 gig hard drive. I personally like the 500 gig hard drives because if you have to format or repair or defrag, it won't take all day to go through 1 terabyte of data. I store all my music and movies and games I'm not playing on an external 1.5 TB hard drive. All this shouldn't cost you more than 600 euros or so.

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:55:00 - [21]
 

I think I can safely justify having this page bookmarked for life.

So what have I learned today? My computer is a borderline brick, I'm never trusting HP again, nor PCWorld (the store I got this thing from) and my brand new GPU, even if it had worked, would have broke in a couple of years anyway.

Overall an excellent day to be honest. Very Happy

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:12:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Kass Rasaan
I think I can safely justify having this page bookmarked for life.

So what have I learned today? My computer is a borderline brick, I'm never trusting HP again, nor PCWorld (the store I got this thing from) and my brand new GPU, even if it had worked, would have broke in a couple of years anyway.

Overall an excellent day to be honest. Very Happy



We've all been there, my friend. The good news is that you bought a desktop, so even if you wanted to gut the entire thing, you could feasibly upgrade it with relatively little money.

Is this a gaming rig, though? It's a perfect family computer, but if you wanna use it for some serious gaming, you're gonna need to make some changes. Personally, I'd try to take it back for a refund. Failing that, you can still salvage this. Basically your problems stem from two things: the motherboard and the GPU, and actually you've got a great video card, it's just that ATI typically has problems with their drivers and aren't as reliable as nVidia. There's really no reason to take back your video card...you've already bought it. Use it and in two years you'll be able to buy one twice as good for the same price you bought this one. That leaves us with the motherboard...

If worse comes to worst, just gut the entire thing, leaving the motherboard. Get your hard drive, disk drives, video/audio cards, etc. and you can just put them in another computer case. You can buy a decent motherboard in a brand new case with several fans and an asskicking PSU for about 300 euros...that is, if you want to make a gaming rig.

If I'm not mistaken, your CPU is integrated, right? I saw the word "Express" on the specs...in most other things, "express" is a good thing...but not in computers and especially not with CPUs.

Get at least a quad core (even a dual core works fine...I've got a dual core and it runs everything from Crysis 2 to The Witcher 2 to Incarna without a problem) and ditch that express cpu. Don't throw it away...it'll make a nice computer for grandma or the kids or the completely computer illiterate wife who just spams Facebook all day. I think you basically just bought a really nice office computer...been there, done that...I'm still kicking myself to this day. Don't worry, though...we've all been there. If you wanna ditch this computer, just gut it and leave the motherboard and mothball it. Go to a shop and tell them you want a new case with a new motherboard that will support all the peripherals you want, and make sure they put at least three fans and at least a 5-600 watt power supply in it.

Remember, STAY AWAY FROM ANYTHING THAT SAYS "INTEGRATED" ON IT.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:12:00 - [23]
 

Eh, Astenion is slightly exaggerating, probably generalizing from bad personal (or close acquaintance) recent experience.
3 years ago, the situation would have been exactly backwards.

The tricky part with some ATI//AMD cards is that lately, a lot of the near-reference designs are encased in a "capsule" of sorts that covers the entire card, and quite a few of them have a single fan either in the middle (above the actual GPU chip) or a bit in the back, and most of those that come in that design also have "stock" heatsinks.

The minor advantage of that design choice is the fact that most of the air is exhausted out the back of the PC case, but the big disadvantage for those that use up a lot of power is that the cards tend to run quite a bit hotter for the same TDP, since you get reduced overall air flow and other components (not just the actual GPU chip) discharge their heat into the same stream of air.
Not just that, but AMD//ATI cards of today run a bit hotter when idle too, because they don't throttle down frequencies as much as NVIDIA cards.

Obviously, if you're buying an ATI with a "exhaust air in all directions" and additional heatsink material design, maybe with two or even three fans, that's no longer much of a problem.
Also, if you buy a lower-powered card (like the one you got, 86W power draw at peak, compared to, say, the 170W my slightly factory-overclocked GTX 460 most likely eats up at peak), you won't see that much of a difference in expected lifetime unless your case is also poorly ventilated.
Plus, if you're feeling uncomfortable with the heat levels, you can always underclock manually a bit.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:27:00 - [24]
 

Akita's right...although I'm speaking from both personal and acquaintance experience. ATI's cards are faster and hotter than nVidia's, but from my own experience and from the experiences of my friends, I've yet to see an ATI card last more than two years under heavy gaming. During that time they outperform just about every other card out there, but the truth is they burn out and their drivers are terrible. There is ALWAYS something that needs to be patched specifically for Radeons. If you have the patience and the know-how, ATI may be for you.

However, if you are willing to sacrifice a hundred thousandth of a fraction of a second in rendering for peace of mind in knowing that every game you play with an nVidia will work, then you may wanna check out the GeForce cards. That's not saying that GeForces don't need patching...I just patched mine the other day. However, I've yet to see nVidia have to create a patch just to be able to PLAY a game *ahem Doom 3 ahem*.

ATI is better for the overclockers and PC gurus because you can squeeze more performance out of them than you can with nVidia. If you don't know what overclocking is or how to do it, just get a GeForce 450/60/. I've got the lower model 450 GS and it runs like a dream. Quiet, stable, and runs every single game I put on it flawlessly.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:39:00 - [25]
 

I shouldn't neglect to say that, ironically, last year I bought Akita's card...and it was broken from the factory. Half the RAM on it wasn't working, it was like half the card was dead. I brought it back to them and they didn't believe me because nVidia cards rarely break and even more rarely are they defective from the factory. I told them to test it on their rig and I brought in my rig to test on mine as well and sure enough, the card was defective. However, I downgraded to the 450 GS instead of the 460 GX (both are 1 GB) and I'm glad I did. The 460 is faster, true, but the 450 was a good 50 euros less in price and this year I'm getting a completely new rig (mine's 5 years old).

In the end, it's only what's best for you. Hope this helps.

Listen to Akita...he knows what he's talking about!

Kass Rasaan
Gallente
Satan's Escorts
UNITED OLD TIMERS
Posted - 2011.08.18 01:05:00 - [26]
 

I've been doing some quick thinking, and if I build Akita's cheap rig I'll have more than half the money I need for it once I get a refund on that GPU, so I could get started buying those parts next week, things are starting to look up for once! Cool

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:05:00 - [27]
 

Well, the computer mentioned there has an even faster // more expensive GPU (well, I guess, depends how much you paid for this one, they might have overcharged), so it's not exactly that much of an overall improvement in your situation...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:49:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 18/08/2011 08:51:58

...

Let's try a machine as cheap as possible with all parts in stock right now on that site, one that SHOULD still run EVE in a satisfactory manner (meaning, at max graphic detail in full HD resolution - a single EVE client over 60 FPS in crowded space, dual client over 30 FPS in crowded space, single client near-30 FPS in CQ with APEX physical hair/clothes simulation disabled - most likely you can't even enable it on a non-NVIDIA card in the first place anyway).


48.95 GBP - XFX Radeon HD 5670, 1GB (64W TDP) - Linkage
44.70 GBP - AMD Athlon II X2 255 @ 3.1GHz, Retail (65W TDP) - Linkage
35.71 GBP - MSI 760GM-P33 AMD 760G AM3 Motherboard, one x16 PCI-E slot, max 8GB RAM - Linkage
20.88 GBP - 4GB (2x2GB) Corsair DDR3 1333, CAS9, 1.5V, dual channel kit - Linkage
28.78 GBP - 500GB WD Caviar Blue, SATA-III, 7200rpm, 16MB Cache - Linkage
22.09 GBP - case with lame 450W PSU (it's practically free of charge on top of the case cost) - Linkage
=
201 GBP without an optical drive (plus shipping) -> umm... wow ?

OPTIONAL :
13.99 GBP - DVD Writer - Linkage
=
215 GBP with the optical drive (plus shipping)


Yes, it's pretty weak for a general purpose gaming machine, but this is ALMOST the cheapest possible one that will run EVE just fine - you couldn't really shave off any significant amount of cash anymore without noticeably affecting performance (unless you want to wait for some components that are listed as only available on pre-order with unknown date, but even then, you won't get much more out of it).

P.S. Note : Under normal circumstances, I would not endorse the cheapo PSU, but at an ubertight budget and low-power components, meh, why not.
That particular video card does NOT need a power connector, it draws all the power it needs directly from the PCI-E slot (max 75W, you need 64W).
The case comes with a single 80mm fan, you can buy and mount extra fans if you want to, but at the uber-low power consumption (probably under 200W total at peak usage), it's doubtful you'll really need to, since you won't have any noticeable heat issues.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:19:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 18/08/2011 12:22:18
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 17/08/2011 21:05:10

Speaking of PSUs...



Lol when reading this topic I already wondered if anyone thought a computer with only a 1x PCI slot would not result in a little mushroom cloud above the PSU if you put a real GPU in it.


Oh and dont think astenion too serious, he is kinda overreacting.

KHAN SUNE
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:22:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: KHAN SUNE on 18/08/2011 18:25:59
Edited by: KHAN SUNE on 18/08/2011 18:25:24
sorry posted by accident.


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