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blankseplocked Tanky Scimitar for Incursion Mothership Battle.
 
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Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:54:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kesshisan on 17/08/2011 08:26:38
I've been running a lot of incursions lately, and found out that for some of the larger encounters having more shields is not only better, but required to permit you to survive an alpha strike.

Using this page as a guideline I can see that about 70k EHP is required to survive, and anything sub 70k is likely to end up as a wreck.

I've been toying around with a Scimitar MoM fit, and here is what I've come up with:


[Scimitar, Incursion Logi Tank 1]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II

Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Medium Shield Transporter II
Small Shield Transporter II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II


This gives me 84.5k EHP but not the strongest repairing amount. However, I am cap stable and I have a bunch of EHP. Repairing amount done while a wreck being zero, I believe it'd be acceptable to have lower rep to ensure survivability but I am looking for a confirm or deny on this setup.

I also threw around this setup:


[Scimitar, Incursion Logi Tank 2]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Medium Shield Transporter II
Small Shield Transporter II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II


This is a whopping 97k EHP with the same high slots. However, this is NOT cap stable. I can turn off the small and be cap stable at 30%, but I understand that being cap stable at such a low percentage doesn't always equal being cap stable due to the way capacitors recharge and the way cycle times can all tick at the same time. If I was to only run the two larges, then I easily get cap stable at >50%.

And a 3rd setup:


[Scimitar, Incursion Logi Tank 3]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Small Shield Transporter II
Small Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II
Large Shield Transporter II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II


An incredible 109k EHP on a Scimitar! I could not fit a small and a medium due to the powergrid loss, but with the change from medium to small I have enough powergrid left to stick on two large tech II reppers! The bad news is that I'm not even cap stable with only the Large reppers running. One large + one small = 60% cap stable, so keeping two on at all times, and 3-4 on in emergencies seems like a viable plan if it means survival.

I fully acknowledge that I am playing EFT warrior here with all skills at level V. However, I'm not too far away from having all of the necessary skills to V so that's a bonus in my favor. Also, I have no idea about the viability of any of these setups (hence this topic.) If you have any experience, even from a Basilisk pilots, or any other experience you think would help, I would appreciate information on this type of a setup for Incursion Mothership battles.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I'm not against buying the faction shield extenders to help reduce sig if necessary. However faction shield extenders have the same powergrid fitting requirements and same shield gains as tech II shield extenders, therefore I used tech IIs in my examples above strictly for fitting purposes.

Ryuce
My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:09:00 - [2]
 

Look up basic logistic flying and the effect of AB's.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.18 10:00:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Ryuce
Look up basic logistic flying and the effect of AB's.


For some peculiar reason, sig and speed tanking has no effect on the torp damage that comes from the Fighter Bombers, raw EHP is the only thing that keeps you up.

Bugged or intended? No idea.

Slinkia
Posted - 2011.08.18 11:36:00 - [4]
 

I wouldn't stress it so much tbh. and fit your standard 4 rep scimi that gets used in the rest of the incursion sites.

since the shield MOM fleets are selling MOM loot @ 600%-1000% markup all in the name of the "ship replacement fund", they should be able to reimburse your losses for when the occasional bomber alpha strike happens.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.21 06:52:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Slinkia
I wouldn't stress it so much tbh. and fit your standard 4 rep scimi that gets used in the rest of the incursion sites.


I do not want to lose a ship doing this. It's not about the isk, it's about being useful. A wreck in the field does zero repping.

Originally by: Slinkia
since the shield MOM fleets are selling MOM loot @ 600%-1000% markup all in the name of the "ship replacement fund", they should be able to reimburse your losses for when the occasional bomber alpha strike happens.


I'd rather not have to rely on other people to provide me with isk for a ship loss that was preventable by me.


Still, my main question has yet to be answered: Does anyone know if it is acceptable to bring along a huge amount of tank but less repping power as a Scimitar for a MoM fleet?

Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
Posted - 2011.08.21 08:54:00 - [6]
 

[Scimitar, Incursion]

2x Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
2x Large Shield Transporter II

3x Large Shield Extender II
2x Invulnerability Field II

3x Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

2x Medium Ancillary Current Router II


80k ehp in eft, large transporters, stable for a minute

Alec Freeman
Minmatar
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2011.08.21 09:15:00 - [7]
 

If you frequently fly incursions (Mom sites) you'd see that it is very uncommon for a scimi to even get shot at, nevermind lost (when there is enough basi's on field atleast). This is because not only do they not generate as much aggro with the incursion NPCs (cap transfers generate aggro) but they also have the sig rad of a frigate and contrary to what one of the above poster's believe this means that they take signifigantly less damage than a basilisc does.

Your best chances of survivability is acually a low EHP fit with an afterburner, something like this:

S95 Large shield transfer
S95 Large shield transfer
S95 Large shield trasnfer
S95 Large shield transfer

Afterburner 10mn II (I use Republic Fleet AB for the speed)
Large Shield extender II (I use Republic Fleet for the sig rad bonus)
Invuln field II
Invuln field II (I sometimes run with a tracking link)
Cap recharger II

Damage Control II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Ancillary Current Router I
Ancillary Current Router I

Should be cap stable at around 34%, turn off a repper or 2 if you get nueted. Ive ran 7 or 8 moms with this set up and countless vanguards / assaults / HQs and have never lost it. The combination of a tiny sig rad and extreme speed mean that the torps hit you for minimal damage (<100dmg for me).

PS: If you own a scimi and do not fit an AB too it, then you wont be owning a scimi for long. Also @ OP: That site you linked is for BASILISCS. Scimi's required a considerably different style of fitting.


Paranon
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:36:00 - [8]
 

You may do 0 repping as a wreck, but you'll do no repping at all without 4 large reps, as you won't get invited to fleet...

Fit 4 large reps.

THEN the best combination of cap and tank you can.

MOM fleets only have a limited number of slots to fill for logistics, bringing a logistic with 50% repping effectiveness hurts the fleet.

Imagine if every logistics did this, how long is that fleet going to last?

TLDR - Reps>Tank

Para

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:23:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Hwong Jian on 21/08/2011 16:26:16
To echo a few of the other comments in this section, ab = yes; 4 large reps = yes.

Also, drop the suitcase. You aren't fitting a pvp ship, so a damage control is unnecessary. At the level a scimitar's resists are, especially with 2 invulns, a damage control gives you exceedingly minimal benefits at the consumption of a low slot.

EFT warriors will mention how it bumps your EHP up 15,000 or more. That is because your structure goes from 0% resists to 60%, effectively giving you 2.333x your current structure. It also increases your armor resists by a small amount. If you're in a shield-tanked ship that already has very good resists, relying on your armor (and structure) is foolish at best.

Take your base fit back to EFT, drop the DC II for a PDS II, then drop a CDFE from your rigs for an ACR (energy grid rig) and try to get 4 large S95a's.

Edit: I don't have EFT since I'm at work. But, if you're not cap stable with only 2 lareg reps, I have a few alarm bells ringing in my mind.

What level is your logi skill? Once you get logi 5, it only takes 11.2 cap per second per large rep. And, 3 CPR II's are enough to get you up to 55 cap per second regen.

Is your logi skill at 3 or 4?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
At the level a scimitar's resists are, especially with 2 invulns, a damage control gives you exceedingly minimal benefits at the consumption of a low slot.
Weeeell…
That's the beauty of a damage control: it gives you the exact same benefit no matter what your resists are. In this case, that benefit is 12.5% less damage to the shields.

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hwong Jian
At the level a scimitar's resists are, especially with 2 invulns, a damage control gives you exceedingly minimal benefits at the consumption of a low slot.
Weeeell…
That's the beauty of a damage control: it gives you the exact same benefit no matter what your resists are. In this case, that benefit is 12.5% less damage to the shields.


Resist-increasing items always work based on the difference between your resists and 100%. So, with a damage control, you get 12.5% of the difference between where your resists sit and 100%. Not a flat 12.5%. Thus, a scimitar with 2 invuln IIs has EM resists sitting at about 87%. The damage control then gives you 12.5% of the 13% you don't have. Also known as 1.45%.

Now, if you believe 1.45% more EM resists are better than 5% more shields, 5% more capacitor and 5% less on your capacitor recharge (I don't remember the exact bonuses of a PDS II) for a logistics ship, then I would concede that we have vastly different opinions on what is important and will never reach an accord.

Paranon
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:58:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hwong Jian
At the level a scimitar's resists are, especially with 2 invulns, a damage control gives you exceedingly minimal benefits at the consumption of a low slot.
Weeeell…
That's the beauty of a damage control: it gives you the exact same benefit no matter what your resists are. In this case, that benefit is 12.5% less damage to the shields.


Resist-increasing items always work based on the difference between your resists and 100%. So, with a damage control, you get 12.5% of the difference between where your resists sit and 100%. Not a flat 12.5%. Thus, a scimitar with 2 invuln IIs has EM resists sitting at about 87%. The damage control then gives you 12.5% of the 13% you don't have. Also known as 1.45%.

Now, if you believe 1.45% more EM resists are better than 5% more shields, 5% more capacitor and 5% less on your capacitor recharge (I don't remember the exact bonuses of a PDS II) for a logistics ship, then I would concede that we have vastly different opinions on what is important and will never reach an accord.



Actually DC's are a flat 12.5% to your resists, (i.e. NOT stacking penalised) THEN your other resist mods are applied...

But, you're right, in this instance, DC isn't really worth it with the Scimis T2 resists and the abundance of mids for Invulns.

Para

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:19:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Hwong Jian on 21/08/2011 17:34:32
Resistance modules are NOT subject to stacking penalties. That is not what I'm talking about.

Any resist module in the game works on the difference between your current resists and 100%. It is a common mistake that people make thinking a damage control gives you a flat increase in resists. This mistake is usually made because it gives you the full amount of resists to your structure. That is only because your structure's resists are 0%. So, the difference between your current resists and 100% is 100. It increases your resists by 60% of what you're missing (100%). 60% of 100% is 60%, so your structure's resists are incresed to 60%.

I promise you this is the case even with shields. Look at your shield's resists, then turn off the damage control and look at how much they drop.

Look at the armor on any ship that isn't T2 Amarr. A damage control only increases the explosive resist from 10% to 19%. Not to 20%, even though a damage control gives 10% armor resists. That is because it has 10% explosive resists and is missing 90%. 10% of 90% is 9%, so your explosive resists are increased by 9%.

Seriously, don't take my word for it. Plug it into EFT and toggle the suitcase on and off. Or, if you're in game, undock and open the fitting screen. Then watch how much your shield/armor resists move when you toggle the suitcase.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:41:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/08/2011 17:41:50
Originally by: Hwong Jian
Resist-increasing items always work based on the difference between your resists and 100%. So, with a damage control, you get 12.5% of the difference between where your resists sit and 100%. Not a flat 12.5%. Thus, a scimitar with 2 invuln IIs has EM resists sitting at about 87%. The damage control then gives you 12.5% of the 13% you don't have. Also known as 1.45%.
Yes, but that still means that you're taking 12.5% less damage than before. Your problem here is that you're too hung up on looking at the resist number to think about what it actually means.

So say you have that 87% resist. You take 13 HP damage for every 100 thrown your way.

Now you add a DCII, and your resist shoots up to a mighty 88.625%. This means you now take 11.375 HP damage for every 100 thrown your way. 11.375 / 13 = 0.875 = a reduction of (drumroll) 12.5% of the incoming damage.

This is how all resistances work. If you somehow magically manage to add two 50% resist mods to a ship that has a base resist of 50%, then that base resist halves the incoming damage, after which the first resist mod halves the incoming damage, after which the second resist mod halves the incoming damage — that's what "50% resist" means: it halves the incoming damage.

Likewise, the DCII's 12.5% unpenalised resist means that it always reduces the incoming damage by 12.5%. What your resists were before you added it is of no relevance: you still reduce the incoming damage by 12.5%.

Oh, and…
Quote:
Resistance modules are NOT subject to stacking penalties.
Yes they are. All of them, except for damage control modules.

Paranon
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:03:00 - [15]
 

Either way, however you look at the calculation, Damage Control's are nice, but NOT worth it on a Scimi in a MOM fight.

Far better to have the cap mod. You'll make use of it 1000 times for everytime the DC actually saves the ship.

Para.

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:09:00 - [16]
 

Thank you, Tippia, for doing the math. While it clearly shows that you are correct in the "reduction of incoming damage", it also illustrates my point very precisely.

Assuming 100 damage dealt, I take 13. You, with your damage control, take 11.375. Thus, your damage control only reduces the total damage dealt by an additional 1.625%.

Again, using the numbers you provided, if turning 100 damage into 11.375 is better to you than turning the 100 damage into only 13, while having 5% more total shields, 5% more capacitor and a 5% reduction in cap recharge time, then you and I are disagreeing at a much more fundamental level and will never reach an accord.

And, I will admit that I am wrong about the stacking penalties. Since I have been PVP'ing almost exclusively for the past couple years, I had forgotten about using multiples of the same resist. I only remembered that the DC does not.

And, Paranon, no. Take a look at the EM vs. Exp shield resists on any T1 ship with and without a damage control

Without, EM = 0% and Exp = 50%.

If a suitcase gave 12.5%, then EM = 12.5% which it does. But, when you look, you don't have 62.5% Exp. 50 + 12.5 = 62.5. Nope, you get 56.25%. Because 6.25% is 12.5% of the 50% you do not have.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:47:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/08/2011 18:53:57
Originally by: Hwong Jian
Assuming 100 damage dealt, I take 13. You, with your damage control, take 11.375. Thus, your damage control only reduces the total damage dealt by an additional 1.625%.
But that is a completely irrelevant number — what you are concerned with is how much damage you actually take, because this is what determines how much longer you survive. You're still looking too much at the resist number and not enough at what it actually means — you're focusing on percentage points, when it is percent that actually matters.

A DCIi means your shields are 12.5% more resistant to damage, no less, no more. It means they last 14.3% longer than without it, no less, no more. It means boosters are 14.3% more effective. Etc, etc, etc.

By your logic, it would be stupid to fit two 90% resist mods because the second one would only improve reduce the damage by 9%. This is obviously false — you fit both of them because then you survive 100× longer, rather than just 10×. Same thing here: that “additional 1.625%” reduction actually means you survive 14.3% longer.
Quote:
If a suitcase gave 12.5%, then EM = 12.5% which it does. But, when you look, you don't have 62.5% Exp. 50 + 12.5 = 62.5. Nope, you get 56.25%. Because 6.25% is 12.5% of the 50% you do not have.
…which means you now resist both explosive and EM damage 12.5% better than you did before.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:06:00 - [18]
 

Should I let you guys finish up discussing stacking penalties and start a new topic or should I continue in this thread?

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:17:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Hwong Jian on 21/08/2011 19:18:15
Tippia, that is exactly what I am saying. But my point is that the difference on a ship with already high resists is negligable. Especially when that negligable amount of damage reduction could instead be something much more beneficial to the ship.

Kesshisan, I would recommend dropping the DC II for a PDS II, drop an LSE II for an afterburner, and drop a rig or two for ACRs so you can get 4 Large S95a's.

Look at it like this: if you are getting targetted and shot in your scimitar, what do you want from the scimitar that would be responsible for repping you? Do you want him to only have 2 large reps, 1 medium rep and 1 small rep that he can't perma-run?

Edit: Also, if you can't fit and perma-run at least 3 large reps, your logi skill needs to be trained immediately and you should probably reconsider flying one until you have better skills. I don't want to sound harsh, but you wouldn't want a surgeon that was still in medical school, would you?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
Tippia, that is exactly what I am saying. But my point is that the difference on a ship with already high resists is negligable.
And I'm saying that it's only negligible if you look at the resist number, not in the actual effect it has. High or low resists, the effect is exactly the same: you take 12.5% less damage and your shields last 14.3% longer than without the DCII.

Whether you think this reduction is enough to make it a valuable use of the slot is a different matter, but I take exception to your description of it as only giving a very tiny percentage increase, because that means you're looking at the wrong thing.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:33:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Kesshisan on 21/08/2011 19:33:27
Originally by: Hwong Jian
Look at it like this: if you are getting targetted and shot in your scimitar, what do you want from the scimitar that would be responsible for repping you? Do you want him to only have 2 large reps, 1 medium rep and 1 small rep that he can't perma-run?


If I'm the only one being attacked, the other logis have nothing else to do, and should be repping me. If a full MoM fleet can't keep me up then there's something wrong. Also, if I increase my resists by half of the difference from 100% makes it would make me need need half as much repping to gain the same amount of effective shield gains. Hence why I'm trying to go for such a high resists fittings.

Believe me, I understand the math on a very high level. I'm going to school for theoretical physics and I teach my fellow students math and physics.

Originally by: Hwong Jian
Edit: Also, if you can't fit and perma-run at least 3 large reps, your logi skill needs to be trained immediately and you should probably reconsider flying one until you have better skills. I don't want to sound harsh, but you wouldn't want a surgeon that was still in medical school, would you?


I have Logi V, Shield Emission Systems V, and perfect capacitor skills. I am getting close to nearly perfect shield skills, too. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Kesshisan The reason why I would not be cap stable is due to the fittings, not skills.

All proposed fits were EFT-warrior'd with all Level V skills just to see what was possible. I can and will train the skills up necessary because I'm close enough that it wouldn't be a big deal to deviate from my current plan for a week to a month or so.

Also I understand the difference between fitting a DCU and not fitting a DCU. The reason I chose the fits I did was for the extremely high EHP, which is what it seems I need to survive an alpha. But it seems to me that everybody's advice in this thread is to fit out a full repping Scimitar and if you get targeted won't survive rather than fitting out a partial repping Scimitar that will ensure survival.

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:43:00 - [22]
 

I have logi 5, shield emission 4 and I use 3x CPRs, 1 PDS, 2 Invulns, 1 AB, 2 LSE IIs, 4 Large S95a's, and 2 ACR rigs and I'm cap stable with everything on, so I don't understand why you were gimping your fit.

Also, the consensus wasn't "full rep and die if you get targetted." The majority of people in this tread seemed to say "even with full rep, you shouldn't be in danger of dying."

Also, Tippia, just when I think we're about to come to an agreement, you slip backwards. It DOES NOT reduce damage by 12.5%. It reduces the damage by 12.5% of the resists you are missing. In the 87% EM resist scenario, you aren't taking 13 damage. You are taking 100 damage and your shields are preventing 87 damage. With a damage control, you are still taking 100 damage, but now your shields prevent 88.625 damage. You are only getting a benefit of 1.625%.

While you are absolutely correct that it is situational on whether or not the resist bonus from a damage control is worth it, this isn't a "situational" debate. A Sansha incursion deals EM and Therm damage. The scimitar is using 2 invuln IIs. It is not a question of whether or not you reduce "incoming damage" by "12.5%". It is simply "does increasing your EM resist by 1.625% and your thermal resist by 3.2% (guesstimate)" outweigh the benefit of other modules that can be placed in your low slots.

Does increasing EM resist from 87% to 88.625% give more of a benefit to his ship than the bonuses of a PDS II? No. It most certainly does not when his fit is not cap stable.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:58:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
I have logi 5, shield emission 4 and I use 3x CPRs, 1 PDS, 2 Invulns, 1 AB, 2 LSE IIs, 4 Large S95a's, and 2 ACR rigs and I'm cap stable with everything on, so I don't understand why you were gimping your fit.

Also, the consensus wasn't "full rep and die if you get targetted." The majority of people in this tread seemed to say "even with full rep, you shouldn't be in danger of dying."


Information
Shield HP: 9199
Resists: 76/86/77/91 (EM/Kin/Exp/Therm)
EHP: 60k
Speed: 240 m/s
Signature: 140 m

Status:
Killed by bombers (no alpha)


60k EHP = killed by bombers.

"This one might have survived. It's still a bit short on buffer..."

Source: here

I am "gimping my fit" so that I can ensure survival. Fun fact, when you are a wreck, your repping drops to 0 shields / second. I would rather be repping for 1/2 as much for 100% of the time then roll the dice and have a chance at becoming a wreck. If enough logis get nailed, then you won't have anything left to rep the fleet.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 20:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
Also, Tippia, just when I think we're about to come to an agreement, you slip backwards. It DOES NOT reduce damage by 12.5%.
Yes it does. Instead of 13 HP damage, you now only take 11.375 — a reduction of 12.5%, and, conversely, a 14.3% increase of EHP.

Looking at how much damage you could have taken with zero resists is just nonsenical because that's not your point of comparison. You have to ask yourself: how much does this one module change things? Well, without it, I take 13 HP damage; with it, I take 11.375 HP damage. Fitting the module therefore lets me take 12.5% less damage than not fitting it. How much I would have taken without all those other resists is not a factor in determining how much this one module helps me.
Quote:
In the 87% EM resist scenario, you aren't taking 13 damage. You are taking 100 damage and your shields are preventing 87 damage. With a damage control, you are still taking 100 damage, but now your shields prevent 88.625 damage. You are only getting a benefit of 1.625%.
No. That's the whole point: you are not taking 100 damage — you only take 13 and 11.375 respectively. The benefit the module brings is the difference between those two values — a difference of 12.5% (unsurprisingly). You are trying to determine the effect of one module by looking at a whole set of modules, ship stats, and bonuses, which means you're not actually looking at this one module at all.
Quote:
While you are absolutely correct that it is situational on whether or not the resist bonus from a damage control is worth it, this isn't a "situational" debate.
And I'm not making a situational argument — quite the opposite. I'm saying that, whether or not you think the 14.3% increase in EHP and booster effectiveness is worth it compared to what else you can do with that slot is a different discussion, but the thing about DCIIs is that they always provide that increase, no matter what.

Again, you are making the argument based on just the resist percentage points, not on the effect of a resist percentage, when it is in fact the effect that matters. To reiterate the example: you are effectively saying that if I fit two 90% resist mods, the second one is wasteful since it only increases my tanking ability by 10% (from 90% to 99%). This is nonsense. The second one does the exact same thing as the first one: it makes you 10× harder to kill.
Quote:
It is not a question of whether or not you reduce "incoming damage" by "12.5%".
Actually, it is very much the question. Indeed, that is all that matters.

You are too focused the difference in percentage points, rather than the difference in percent and the difference in actual damage received. It is the actual damage received — not how much damage is thrown your way — that determines how long you will last; it is the damage received that eats away at your raw hitpoints. In focusing on the percentage points, you are also overlooking how much each individual point is worth, and how this worth changes the closer you get to 100%.

For instance, let's go with your (wrongheaded) 1.625pp number (and it's pp, not %): how much is that worth? Well, that depends. Where on the scale are we? If we are comparing 0% to 1.625, then it's not worth much — you only increase your EHP with 1.65%. If we're comparing 97.375% to 99% then its a hellalot — you increase your EHP with over 250%. In this case, it's somewhere in-between — we're comparing 87% with 88.625%, which means an increase in EHP of 14.3%, which means you've reduced the incoming damage by 12.5%.

What matters is: how much damage do take with the module compared to without it. That difference is 12.5% less damage — the same as the non-penalised resists bonus — which results in a 14.3% increase in EHP and booster effectiveness. This happens regardless of what your resists are without the module.

Tsai Ashitaka
Posted - 2011.08.21 20:23:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Hwong Jian
It DOES NOT reduce damage by 12.5%. It reduces the damage by 12.5% of the resists you are missing. In the 87% EM resist scenario, you aren't taking 13 damage. You are taking 100 damage and your shields are preventing 87 damage. With a damage control, you are still taking 100 damage, but now your shields prevent 88.625 damage. You are only getting a benefit of 1.625%.


Yes, you're getting 1.625% off of the total damage, but you're reducing what damage you would have received FURTHER by 12.5%. The debate isn't whether or not this is true, but rather, is it worth it?

If I somehow have 98% resists, and add 50% (bringing me to 99%), I have halved the incoming damage. No question about it. I've gone from 2 damage to 1 damage per 100 damage.

Originally by: Hwong Jian
A Sansha incursion deals EM and Therm damage.


Seriously? You're aware they do omni damage, right? This ain't your Level 4 mission we're talking about, here.

Originally by: Hwong Jian
The scimitar is using 2 invuln IIs. It is not a question of whether or not you reduce "incoming damage" by "12.5%". It is simply "does increasing your EM resist by 1.625% and your thermal resist by 3.2% (guesstimate)" outweigh the benefit of other modules that can be placed in your low slots.


Yes, the resists will literally increase by those amounts. But the damage taken of each of those types is FURTHER reduced by 12.5%, so on the whole, you are receiving 12.5% less damage than without the briefcase. Again, not a question, you are actually receiving 12.5% less damage than you would without the briefcase.

Originally by: Hwong Jian
Does increasing EM resist from 87% to 88.625% give more of a benefit to his ship than the bonuses of a PDS II? No. It most certainly does not when his fit is not cap stable.


In this, you're actually somewhat correct. The big danger of the mothership fleet is the fighter bombers. Incursion torpedos do Exp/Kin damage, so bumping up the EM resist won't help with that (it will help with the turrets of other ships, though, but they're not the problem). But the invul fields help with Exp/Kin a little more than with EM/Therm due to the resist profile of Minmatar T2 ships.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:03:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 21/08/2011 21:11:03
Now, it's been several months since I've actually run a mothership site, but the last time I was active in that arena, I picked up a couple key facts:

  • The most dangerous part of the mothership site is the fighter bombers

  • These fighter bombers fire compact citadel torpedoes, which deal 50% kinetic and 50% explosive damage.

  • These torpedoes are ludicrously accurate, and neither signature radius nor speed do much to mitigate the damage

  • The volley is somewhere in the 75k range, but will diminish as bombers are eliminated from the field.


Given these facts, wouldn't it make sense to ignore propulsion and signature radius, use dedicated hardeners to plug the Scimitar's weak resists so the torpedoes don't eat through them, and try to use low-cost ships so that if screwups do happen they're easy to replace?

[Scimitar, Mothership]

3x Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium Shield Transporter II

Ballistic Deflection Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
2x Large Shield Extender II

3x Power Diagnostic System II
Capacitor Power Relay II

2x Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Edit: I am allowing myself the luxury of a few nice implants. Those don't blow up when the ship pops, so...

Paranon
Posted - 2011.08.22 02:00:00 - [27]
 

Kesshisan, you're approaching this from the wrong point of view.

As soon as you start placing YOUR ships survival over it's performance in the fleet I.e. To rep other ships. You're going to find invites few and far between.

A scimitar draws virtually no agro in a standard MOM fight, to be primaried is extremely rare, to be lucky enough to be primaried by bombers is freakishly rare.

Even then, the bombers don't deal alpha in the strict sense, they're missles, they arrive over 2-4 seconds, this is why you broadcast as soon as your yellow boxed by the bombers, it gives the other logies time to lock and deactivate reps ready to rep you.

If they're any good, by now they should be, there must have been a few hundred moms run by now, they'll catch the alpha and rep you up.

The deciding factor is NOT your tank, so much as the skill & reaction time of yourself, in getting the broadcast out quickly, and your fellow logies, in keeping free lock slots and locking you up in time to repair effectively.

And if you are alpha'd I bet you pray they all have 4 large reps...

Para

Inserith Peon
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:30:00 - [28]
 

Have been thinking of running some incursions as a logi pilot (not done them yet), I also have only just started researching this stuff. My Scimitar at the moment is fitted like this (this is what is in my hangar not a PYFA-warrior fit) -

[Scimitar]
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Khanid Navy Cap Recharger

Reactor Control Unit II
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Stable at ~50% running everything (I have a clone with 5% cap implants to use as well, which bumps this up again).

Is this going to do the job, or do I need to swap a few things around? CCC for an ACR, and RCU for another PDU or CPR, for example? I can also fly a Basi, but prefer the Scimi.


BTW: I ran missions for Trust partners a while back and have a stack of Thukker extenders, they are identical to the RF ones.

Paranon
Posted - 2011.08.22 23:23:00 - [29]
 

Inserith, better to run ancillary current router rigs, tech 1 will do, tech 2 allow you to fit T2 reps. This let's you drop grid mods in lows, for CPRs, giving you the overly sought after "cap stability".

With experience you'll find cap stability is overrated, 90seconds or so cap with everything on is usually more than enough, due to target switches etc, giving you time to regen some cap.

Drop the cap recharger for a Faction Tracking Link, cheap, and your fleet mates will love you.

Have fun.

Para

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.08.23 06:05:00 - [30]
 

lol people are failing at pve. I love it. Do we know the answers to these questions?

Will a Scimitar get primaried and if so how often?
Does sig radius or speed mitigate the damage like it would against a player fired torpedo?
If sig radius doesn't matter and scimitars will get primaried then is it better to have fully rep-capable scimitars that will slowly die over the course of the encounter or a set of weaker rep scimitars that won't die?
If all the Scimitars fit weak reps will they die because even though they can tank the alpha strike they can't hold reps?

It seems these are the important questions.


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