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Flattomz
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:05:00 - [1]
 

Hi everybody

I'm a bit of a newb so I'm currently thinking about armor vs shield tanking. Some ships are made to tank armor (most amarr ships for instance), some are designed for shield tanking (all caldari ones I think) while some other can use both.

When you armor tank, you're generally slow and it means often death. When you shield tank, you've got a higher sig radius which means more damage from missiles. I know that armor tanking frees some mid slots for some more ewar but still I can't reach another conclusion than shield tanking is far far better for frigates/cruisers. You can even put some ewar on shield tanked ships (web/td mostly) and your low slots will be filled with damage mods.

So when I compare both methods I've got:
shield = high damage, limited ewar but you've got what is needed, very fast
armor = slow, lots of ewar

What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.

Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:34:00 - [2]
 

hmmm tanking article on wiki is waiting for ya.
Generally:
Passive shield - imba pre BS size, takes tons of slots, Makes you big. No sorry, makes you B I G.
Active shield - fast, powerful thx to module set but very cap inefficient.
Active armor - weakest (that doesnt mean bad) and most cap efficient out of 3.

Ildryn
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:38:00 - [3]
 

What are you using the ship for? In what situation? What set-up do your fellow fleet members have? Etc...etc..

Higher sig also means you get hit by guns more often.

Remember tackle usually goes in mid slots as well.

Armor is easier to buffer without increase in sig.

Armor is not really better...just better in certain situation.

Shield is usually the best in pve. Armor in pvp. Though it really depends...sorry if i am contradicting myself...but once you start applying your ships in different situations you will see how easy it is.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:38:00 - [4]
 

For one thing, some of that "ewar" you're talking about, is all the necessary PvP gear.

AB/MWD
Warp Scram/Disrupt
Web
ECM/TD/Damp

None of which will really fit on a dedicated shield boat without sacrificing tank.

Armor tanks aren't slow. In fact, they're usually faster than shield tanks. They can fit the AB/MWD, while the shield boat is using another extender or whatnot.

Shield sig radius means you're quicker to target, and easier to hit with turrets as well as missiles.

In general, I do have to agree. With the natural regen of shields, there is a lot of bias towards shield tanks in Eve. Hence why the Drake and Tengu are the most popular ships in the entire freaking game!

But there's a lot of things that only an armor tank can do =)

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:42:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Flattomz
What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.


shield tank means less mids for stuff like point, scram, web, tp, sebo, etc. But you get to run damage mods more. Its give and take.

Case of your shield tank rifter you will lose versatility. 3 mids...1 will be a shield booster or MSE (medium shield extender). One will be your prop mod. leaves one for tackle/whatever mids float your boat. Choose wisely. And choose targets even more wisely.

Example time to hopefully tie this together: your target packs drones....you went scram on your shield rifter. means you have no web for the drones. they'l be much harder to kill sans the web...all the while you will have your target trying to kill you. YOu can run more gyro now...but it may not get full damage due to tracking problems with the drones.


Now an armour setup....you got scram, web and prop mod. Same drony target. Scram the target, web the drones kill them off much easier....and go back to the target if all goes to plan.


More fun with rifter...you can sig tank it. Low sig radius, harder to hit with guns if you work traversal right. Case of missiles, less sig radius, less they missile can bite into for damage. Armour rifter does this better. You run an mse shield rifter, you boosted that sig radius high. Easier mark now. Nice buffer tank tbh...but one easier to hit.

Not to say one is better than the other for rifter. Its how you fly and what you fly against. case for both rifters, try em both and see whats you. Or if you like both...run both. No one way to do things in eve...well short of blob fleet ops and you have that one force fed fit lol.

Canes...same deal basically. Your armour cane can run more fun mids...you shield cane can run damage mods in the lows.

Now this is real basic...many of shields "issues" cna be fixed with gun selection (125 or 150's) and (TE) tracking enhancers with titanium sabot, but that's a more complicated topic. One better covered in a fine gun/ammo research by the famed rifter drifter blog iirc (long ass blog with pretty graphs for gun and ammo combo's...google it if you care, not a 2 minute read...but good stuff and not filled with fluff).

Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:26:00 - [6]
 

The correct answer is BOTH. You MUST has the capability to tank either way, depending on who you fly with/what you fly on any given day.

Flexibility is key to any successful pilot.

I see so many new people try to focus on one style of play/one tank and then are left out in the cold when the FC calls for a different type of ship. It is not much fun being in a armour boat when you have 2 Basi's and a Scmi as logistics, with a Vulture as your booster boat.

Some days a shield boat is the answer, some days an armour boat.

All new pilots should realize that Eve is a game about patience. If every pilot built up their ship support skills before tearing off into battleships and T2/T3 ships, there would be a lot less losses of ships.

Nothing like seeing a Vaga pilot who can't fit a T2 shield tank or T2 autos.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.08.17 06:12:00 - [7]
 

Shield
Faster
Larger Sig - Everything hits you better and people lock you faster
More slots for damage mods
Better active tank - Xlarge shield boosters

Armor
Slower - Everything hits you better and people have more time to lock you
More slots for ewar mods
Better buffer tank - 1600mm plates
Armor damage needs to be repaired

PVP ships mostly buffer, so an armor ship is likely to have a better Tank'n'Gank setup than a shield ship, while a shield ship will be faster.

Onictus
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Hiroshima Jita


PVP ships mostly buffer, so an armor ship is likely to have a better Tank'n'Gank setup than a shield ship, while a shield ship will be faster.


You are right of course.

You left out that shield does better damage (free low slots for damage mods) and Armor has better utility overall (free mid slots).

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.18 03:03:00 - [9]
 

Here's the thing. You got the "theory" right.

Armoured boats have free mids for ewar.
Shield boats got the lows for damage mods.

At least, that the "theory".

At the end, most armour boats don't really have enough mids to field "great ewar". Once you consider the mandatory basic gear (MWD and point) there is often very little free slots to have a a meaningful impact on the ewar front. Meanwhile, the penalties of armour tanking (speed and agility) will ALWAYS nag you.

On the other side, the signature radius penalty associated to shield tanking is largely inconsequential; they still maintain full agility and speed. Reality is just like you pointed out. Speed = life. Slow = death. If you have to GTFO, trimarked Battleships surely won't make it in time. They are way too slow and clunky. Shield tanked Battleships, in the same situation, stands a far better chance of making it out alive.

That's it to me. Armour tankers tends to have the short stick. Shield tanker's penalty (sig radius) does not really account for it. It's just something they have to tank about sometimes. Not really an issue at all. The speed is always there when you need/want it.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:55:00 - [10]
 

In general for PvE, active shield tanking almost always wins, exactly cause you can fit all your lows with dmg mods, TEs etc, and in PVE dmg projection is everything. Sure, there are passive shield tank fits, hybrid (passive regen with active hardeners), RR etc in PVE too, but most solo mission runners use active tanking for both armor and shield oriented ships.

In PvP everything boils down to the fielded tackle / ewar: the more ships in a gang, the less critical is for each and every one to field full tackle.

In general, bonused active shield tankers do tank more per tanking slot invested into it, but that rarely allows for MWD-point-web configurations, something that is relatively cookie for most armor tankers (both plated and active ones) - those mid slots that would be over-crowded with cap rechargers in PvE, usually do make a difference in PvP for the armor tankers, while most active shield tankers will be happy with a single scram module and/or maybe a MWD.


Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:35:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sphit Ker
At the end, most armour boats don't really have enough mids to field "great ewar". Once you consider the mandatory basic gear (MWD and point) there is often very little free slots to have a a meaningful impact on the ewar front. Meanwhile, the penalties of armour tanking (speed and agility) will ALWAYS nag you.

.....

The speed is always there when you need/want it.


have to aggree with the e-war. best 3 cases of good e-war armour tanked....well...are caldari shield tankers lol. falcon, scorp and widow. Lows tank, mids jams the accepted standard fit.


the speed tnings, case by case. More often then not....unless something went wrong, you went omfg that size plate fits? fit or the pilot is snaked, you are generally smoking caldari off the line. Very few caldari ships even against armoured tank dictate range and such of the battle imo.

Jahned
Posted - 2011.08.20 10:34:00 - [12]
 

One thing that isn't mentioned by anyone yet and that IMHO is important when selecting tank types, is the base armour/shield hp and available slots. Sure a shield tanked harbinger might seem nice, but you only have 4 mids, not nearly enough to fit tackle and tank, plus the natural shield hp is around half of the armour hp, making shield tanking inferior to armour tanking in this case. Also, shield tanks take a whole lot of cpu, sometihng Amarrian/armour ships lack. on the flip, ships ment for shield tanking usually have inferior powergrid, essential for any half decent buffer/rep and lack th lowslots needed for damage mods and tank. if you were to armour tank a drake, you will be faced with either terrible dps, terrible tank, or a molasse of undefined ineffectiveness. Plus, the natural armour hp on shield ships are sometimes so thin that no matter what kind of armour tank you fit, you will lose all your effective tank in 1 or two shots.
In my newb days, i used to fly a shield tanked punisher. though my skills were shabby for both types of tanks, i fared much better with an armour tank.besides, you might also be tossing grear ship bonuses out the window.

Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.08.20 11:10:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 20/08/2011 11:11:05
Originally by: Flattomz
When you armor tank, you're generally slow and it means often death. When you shield tank, you've got a higher sig radius which means more damage from missiles.


Usually, having a large sig is even worse than being slow, since a large sig doesn't just make you easier to hit with turrets and take more damage from missiles, it also cuts the time necessary to lock your ship. It also makes it easier to scan your ship down with probes, and there are probably a few other reasons why having a large sig is bad that I forgot.

Quote:
What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.


In PvE? Shield tanking Blood Raiders or Sansha sucks (since you'll need tons of hardeners to get your shield resistances against EM and thermal up).

In PvP? Maybe the rest of your gang is armor-tanked, maybe you want more mid slots (it's quite hard to fit a decent shield tank _and_ the AB/web/point combo that's pretty much standard), etc.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.08.20 11:12:00 - [14]
 

Generally speaking, armored ships have more EW and more EHP. Shield tanks tend to be faster and more agile (ignoring the obvious drake/rokh). Which is better is situational. For skirmishing, you'll almost always use a shield fit for the ability to GTFO. For a pitched battle however, EW and EHP are greater concerns than mobility and so you'll go with armor. As for damage, they actually do about the same generally. For a shield hurricane for example, you'll fit a DCII, a nano or two, a TE or two and two gyro's. Armor tank that exact same ship and you won't have the nano's or TE's but you'll still have a pair of gyro's. So although you'll have less range and a little less tracking, you have the same raw dps. You also gain two additional midslots for EW. Care to guess which hurricane is faster when the shield version is dual webbed by the armor one?Wink. The armor version also has 50% more EHP than the shield version with the same close range dps. If the armor cane can get into hard tackle range, it will win every time assuming everything else is anywhere near equal.

All that said, most ships do have very clearly defined roles. Shame on anyone who armor tanks a drake or shield tanks an armageddon. That said, I've encountered both more than once.Rolling Eyes

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 12:22:00 - [15]
 

Fun differences between armour and shield:

Armour reps at end of cycle
Shields rep at start of cycle

Armour reps are slow, repair in large chunks and are highly cap-efficient
Shield reps are fast, repair in smaller chunks and are not cap-efficient

Armour has an XL plate, but no XL repper
Shield has an XL repper, but no XL extender

Armour modules use high PG and low CPU
Shield modules use low PG and high CPU

Armour has implants to increase armour amount, no rep amount
Shield has implants to increase boost amount, no base amount

Armour has a rig to increase repair amount, no module
Shield has a module to increase repair amount, no rig

Armour has a passive omni-resistor, no active omni-resistor
Shield doesn't have a passive omni-resisitor, but it has an active one

Armour has higher base resists before modules, but less effective resistance modules
Shields have lower base resists, but more effective resistance modules

Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.08.20 15:15:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Armour has implants to increase armour amount, no rep amount
Shield has implants to increase boost amount, no base amount


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hardwiring_-_Zainou_%27Gnome%27_KVA2000


Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.08.20 23:43:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Flattomz
Hi everybody

I'm a bit of a newb so I'm currently thinking about armor vs shield tanking. Some ships are made to tank armor (most amarr ships for instance), some are designed for shield tanking (all caldari ones I think) while some other can use both.

When you armor tank, you're generally slow and it means often death. When you shield tank, you've got a higher sig radius which means more damage from missiles. I know that armor tanking frees some mid slots for some more ewar but still I can't reach another conclusion than shield tanking is far far better for frigates/cruisers. You can even put some ewar on shield tanked ships (web/td mostly) and your low slots will be filled with damage mods.

So when I compare both methods I've got:
shield = high damage, limited ewar but you've got what is needed, very fast
armor = slow, lots of ewar

What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.


I smell troll

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.21 00:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Armour has implants to increase armour amount, no rep amount
Shield has implants to increase boost amount, no base amount


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hardwiring_-_Zainou_%27Gnome%27_KVA2000



oooh, I didn't know that existed.
I just assumed shields didn't have an implants like that at all, because of all the whining about Slaves. Laughing

Jahned
Posted - 2011.08.21 06:16:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Xenuria
Originally by: Flattomz
Hi everybody

I'm a bit of a newb so I'm currently thinking about armor vs shield tanking. Some ships are made to tank armor (most amarr ships for instance), some are designed for shield tanking (all caldari ones I think) while some other can use both.

When you armor tank, you're generally slow and it means often death. When you shield tank, you've got a higher sig radius which means more damage from missiles. I know that armor tanking frees some mid slots for some more ewar but still I can't reach another conclusion than shield tanking is far far better for frigates/cruisers. You can even put some ewar on shield tanked ships (web/td mostly) and your low slots will be filled with damage mods.

So when I compare both methods I've got:
shield = high damage, limited ewar but you've got what is needed, very fast
armor = slow, lots of ewar

What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.


I smell troll



Ahahaha I see your point Crying or Very sad

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2011.08.21 10:59:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jacob Stov on 21/08/2011 11:00:19
Conventional wisdom of armor vs shield applies only for Minmatar ships, if you are talking about shieldtanking.
Because CCP peeps thought it was a great idea to make Caldari ships super heavy (heavier then trimarked Gallente ships), give them at the same time the lowest base speed among all the races AND the largest sigradius (strange exception: Myrm vs Drake) PLUS the lowest scanres.
And in case of Raven, you need tons of ewar (web+painter) to hit same size ships. In short: Caldari ships combine all the disadvantage of armor and shield tanking. If you want to shieldtank, go Minmatar.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.08.21 11:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Flattomz
What's the point of armor tanking when you can shield tank on the very same ship, like on a rifter/harbinger/hurricane/... ?
I guess I'm missing something and hopefully someone can help.


Details and discussions (lots of it) armour/shield stuff are not easy. Both have advantages and drawbacks.

Armour stuff can be really nasty to blow up but generally they will have lower dps than shield tanks, just because some very intelligent guy had this very good idea that dmg mods are all "low slot".

The shield tank usually will have a lot more free low slots for dmg mods and will be a lot faster since the shield tanking drawback is the sign radius.

On the other side at each plate or rig you'll put on your armour tank will make it slower, armour tank uses low slots so once you've fitted your brick you're happy if you can fit more than one dmg mod without having to choose to sacrifice your tank.

You should see what a shield Hyperion can spit has dmg, but requires perfect shield/hybrids/mods skills to make you happy.
Or you'll be just "huh????" when you'll cross some ecm-armor tank scorp.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:10:00 - [22]
 

Each type of tank has it's own advantages and drawbacks.

Shield tanks tend to be faster and more nimble (yes even Caldari boats since they can always put speed/agility mods in those lows) at the same time they tend to be fragile.

Armor tankers while tending to be slow and ponderous are generally tougher, no shield tank can come close to matching the pure EHP of an armor tanked ship.

Armor tankers can use mids towards EWAR (point and web are Ewar too) propulsion and cap however they have to sacrifice tank for speed/agility and damage mods. Shield tankers are the opposite having to sacrifice tank for EWAR, propulsion and Cap but being able to fit speed/agility and damage mods with minimal sacrifice.

Of course most ships are built to more easily accommodate one tank over another. Armor tankers tend to have lots of lows for tank while sporting fewer mids. Shield tankers get lots of mids and few lows.
They will have natural armor totals with one higher than the other and often resist profiles that favor one type of tank vs the other.

In fact a cursory look over the popular nano/speed/shield ships will actually show you a bunch of retasked armor tankers.

Macharial 7 lows 5 mids? that's an armor tanker setup but people figured out that 5 mids is plenty for a good battleship shield tank and thus can stack the lows with Gyro's TE's and Nanofibers creating the fastest Battleship in the game with stupid range and awesome firepower.

The same goes for the Cane which is even more suited for an armor tank having 500 more base Armor HP and 6 lows to 4 mids (which really isn't quite enough to fit a good shield tank with tackle.

The Harbinger of course is even more obviously slanted to armor tanking having a fully 2100 more armor hp than shield yet the combination of scorch and 6 lows for heat sinks tracking enhancers and a nano or two make it a very effective shield tanker.

Shield tanks of course also have their natural regen which in addition to meaning that you don't have to dock up or use some sort of remote/active repair function to replenish also helps to mitigate some incoming dps.

This works very well for extending the true effective HP of a shield ship in situations where they are taking a relatively low level of sustained dps. The corollary of this being that high dps and alpha will generally tear them apart meaning that they are much more efficient to kill when you have high levels of damage available.

Shield tanks also tend to rely on active hardeners due to the lack of a passive Omni resist module making them more vulnerable to capacitor warfare a couple large neuts will rapidly cut a shield tank in half.

Finally most of the popular ships for shield tanking have a huge EM and a rather large thermal resist hole that they can't really afford the modules to plug.

Armor on the other hand while lacking the natural regen tends to have a higher base EHP due to the fact that it does not have that natural regen as such it doesn't really matter how you apply dps to it fast or steady it's going to take X Damage to kill it.

Of course this means that you will have to get access to some form of active repair once damaged.

Armor also has a passive Omni resist module making it mostly immune to capacitor warfare.

The explosive hole in armor tanks is also smaller than the equivalent EM hole on shields 10% compared to 0% perhaps not huge but significant particularly when one accounts for the larger buffer they tend to have.

In the end they each have their own benefits/detriments and which is best is entirely situational. Shield tends to be better when mobility is important while armor is decidedly superior when ground needs to be held.

Sadly there are few situations in EVE today where holding ground matters with most PVP being opportunistic with no real consequence then ship loss. I think this is why you see more armor in Null warfare than low/high sec activities which generally favors shields.




 

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