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blankseplocked A brief thought on high security spaced neutral logistics and war.
 
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Dik Gosinya
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Dik Gosinya on 16/08/2011 23:24:27
With little to no exaggeration in this thread I will outline what I see the current state of high security space warfare is like with neutral logistics and what can be done to change it to offer a better state of combat in high security space but not a drastic change.

The problem
At the moment in high security space you have the problem that when a war is declared the enemy use the iceberg tactic. This is whereby they show you a small group or one singular bait ship in order to get you to engage whereby then they can warp in a fleet. This is normal pvp tactics, using bait to get the enemy to put themselves on the back foot and I have no qualms with that. The problem arises with corporations who sit in high security space hub systems, like that of Dodixie, Amarr, Jita and repair people who are in combat to either share the agression in the hopes that someone will shoot at you or in order to change the balance of the battle.

In most cases what happens is someone will proceed into combat with a small force using the aforementioned 'iceberg' bait but instead of using their own corporation/alliance backup they will proceed to use neutral logistic ships which warp in at range with complete impunity until the crunch time whereby they can severely alter the state of the war.

The problem with this is that it means that corporations do not need proper combat tactics or fleets to work but multiple accounts, and at that it inserts a more of a 'no-risk' PvP element into the war situation, which even the people using the logistics will say can make life dull. It also causes stress for those who are intersted in PvP but are unable to engage the enemy or play the game for fear of going up against a wall of logistics, whether it be through T2 logistics or other ships like the Dominix.

What needs to be changed?
When someone is at war, one of the involving parties has paid ISK to get the war started and has probably invested alot of time and effort to further the war. The more wars you have the more ISK it costs. Alliance wars are expensive that way.
By using neutral remote repair during a war you are effectively bypassing the cost of the war. You can declare war against an alliance using a corporation of a few individuals but with the backup of 2x to 3x as many neutral repairers.
This does mean that the strong are usually the smallest corporation, which isn't keeping with the EvE Online ethos of having a large social community who work together, but instead uses a small community who are separated from the majority of EvE using mostly alts to fill the neutral repair roles.

A previous war that I have been in has had a situation whereby 2 megathrons were put up against a vindicator, bhaalgorn, dominix and falcon but at the tide of the battle where the vindicator is at 50% hull 2 T2 logistic cruisers arrive and immediately stabilise the ship which means that all that ISK and effort is gone as those logistics cannot be forseen.

The suggestion
In a time of war it should be that people cannot repair you if they are not in that war.
An example would be that if you have declared war on 2 corporations then both those corporations can draw upon their scouts and members to fight but cannot rely on out of corp/war neutral support for repair.
The reasoning behind this is that neutral repairing is circumventing the reason for paying for the war declaration and deducting the enjoyment of high security space PvP.
If you attempt to repair a individual who is in a war that you are not part of it should not allow you to do so, you can still repair someone if they are just using container based agression.

Dik Gosinya
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:25:00 - [2]
 

The perks
The perks of this will be that it will transform the way fleets are formed and the way high security space corporations will function during wars. They will either need to bring in the logistics to the corporation and then using fleet tactics get them safely to the battle or go without.
There is no forseeable problem with this change other than the neutral logistics will become active corp logistics tied to that war, if they are needed elsewhere it might make things harder for them but that is life.

Please leave constructive criticism or observational comments. The more you post the more likely that this subject will be discussed and put up for further action.

Thank you

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:45:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Roosterton on 16/08/2011 23:47:39
Edited by: Roosterton on 16/08/2011 23:45:02
Quote:
The problem with this is that it means that corporations do not need proper combat tactics or fleets to work but multiple accounts, and at that it inserts a more of a 'no-risk' PvP element into the war situation, which even the people using the logistics will say can make life dull. It also causes stress for those who are intersted in PvP but are unable to engage the enemy or play the game for fear of going up against a wall of logistics, whether it be through T2 logistics or other ships like the Dominix.


How is this a problem, and how is it "no-risk"? You're able to shoot the repairers. That's just as much risk as they would have if they were in their corporation and repairing, how is anything different?

I feel that ships should gain a no-jump, no-dock timer for repairing somebody who has a no-jump, no-dock timer, but it has nothing to do with whether they're neutral, or in highsec.

Quote:
When someone is at war, one of the involving parties has paid ISK to get the war started and has probably invested alot of time and effort to further the war. The more wars you have the more ISK it costs. Alliance wars are expensive that way.
By using neutral remote repair during a war you are effectively bypassing the cost of the war. You can declare war against an alliance using a corporation of a few individuals but with the backup of 2x to 3x as many neutral repairers.
This does mean that the strong are usually the smallest corporation, which isn't keeping with the EvE Online ethos of having a large social community who work together, but instead uses a small community who are separated from the majority of EvE using mostly alts to fill the neutral repair roles.


Huh? You're not bypassing anything. They can't actually shoot you unless you shoot them; wars are the privilege to shoot somebody. RR is a valid tactic in a war. If you implement this suggestion, people would just put their RR alts in the corp that's at war.

Dik Gosinya
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:01:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Dik Gosinya on 17/08/2011 00:07:45
Edited by: Roosterton on 16/08/2011 23:47:39
Quote:
How is this a problem, and how is it "no-risk"? You're able to shoot the repairers. That's just as much risk as they would have if they were in their corporation and repairing, how is anything different?


Yes you are but only once the repairer has begun, you have no idea who or when this repair advantage will appear. It is normally far too late to change tactics and engage the repairer in those situations forcing a de-agro stalemate.

Quote:
I feel that ships should gain a no-jump, no-dock timer for repairing somebody who has a no-jump, no-dock timer, but it has nothing to do with whether they're neutral, or in highsec.

Huh? You're not bypassing anything. They can't actually shoot you unless you shoot them; wars are the privilege to shoot somebody. RR is a valid tactic in a war.


RR is a valid tactic, but using neutral alts tends to introduce a completely random edge to combat in high security space, not to mention the groups of people sitting outside a popular station dock ramp whos only goal seems to be to interfere.

Quote:
If you implement this suggestion, people would just put their RR alts in the corp that's at war.


Mission accomplished? This means that wars are more tactical with more of an idea of what is coming. The reason why people go to low sec to pvp in groups is that you don't get this neutral RR problem.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:26:00 - [5]
 

the RR neut should be concorded IMO... he is aiding an agressor

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:38:00 - [6]
 

Just have a docking timer for rr, and make giving fleet bonuses give 15-minute aggression to fleetmembers' wartargets' like rr. If you make neutral rr'ers get CONCORD'ed then people will cancel their rr alt accounts and CCP will lose money.


 

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