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Iris Bravemount
Gallente
Pendragon Inc
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:40:00 - [1]
 

Hi there,

As a new player, I often get to read that it is way better to "max out" small ships before moving on to bigger ones. Eventhough I understand the reasons behind this, but I disagree (or I missunderstand something).

AFAIK, even outmaxed frigates / cruisers are unfit for lvl 4 missions / nullsec ratting. So how is a new player who doesn't rush to BC/BS class ships supposed to make money (and thus buy the t2 ships) ?

Please explain me where I am wrong.

SIR PRIME
Minmatar
FireStar Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:04:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: SIR PRIME on 16/08/2011 13:04:17
Theory is more relevant to pvp as it trains your fitting, cap and tanking skills that cross over to larger ships while teaching you about transversal movement etc.

Ratting you can do easily even with awful skills as the NPC's are utterly predictable so you can set up ranges of engagements, resistances, tactics etc easily. People are far less predictable thankfully.

It also has to be said that sig tanking in af's etc is often done in high tier plexes in 0.0 so don't discount those frigs so quickly.

You can always look at strategic cruisers for your carebearing as training is very light relative to what they can do. Of course those are slightly more expensive but relative to a pimped golem etc they're not. Laughing

Has to be said I did deep 0.0 belt ratting when very bored in a t1 cruiser for a couple of weeks before I wanted to scream so even t1 its doable in if you're careful and can control the battle range. Not something I'd really advise though as can do it much more efficiently in other ships ... of course my designation on TS during those sessions was "Bait" so I had ulterior motives. ;)

Iris Bravemount
Gallente
Pendragon Inc
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:17:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: SIR PRIME
Edited by: SIR PRIME on 16/08/2011 13:04:17
Theory is more relevant to pvp as it trains your fitting, cap and tanking skills that cross over to larger ships while teaching you about transversal movement etc.

Ratting you can do easily even with awful skills as the NPC's are utterly predictable so you can set up ranges of engagements, resistances, tactics etc easily. People are far less predictable thankfully.

It also has to be said that sig tanking in af's etc is often done in high tier plexes in 0.0 so don't discount those frigs so quickly.

You can always look at strategic cruisers for your carebearing as training is very light relative to what they can do. Of course those are slightly more expensive but relative to a pimped golem etc they're not. Laughing

Has to be said I did deep 0.0 belt ratting when very bored in a t1 cruiser for a couple of weeks before I wanted to scream so even t1 its doable in if you're careful and can control the battle range. Not something I'd really advise though as can do it much more efficiently in other ships ... of course my designation on TS during those sessions was "Bait" so I had ulterior motives. ;)



So my idea of using a not maxed out BC for ratting and focussing on t2 frigates and cruisers for PvP is basically a good one ?

BTW : I'm aiming at heavy assault cruisers rather than at strategic cruisers, bcs the skill loss upon ship loss is just too much of a turn off for me. Plus, on EFT it seems like they (HACs) are just as good for ratting as battleships.

Hallax
Without Borders Diversified
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:41:00 - [4]
 

Personally I think that every pvp or pve character should be able to pilot a Drake. It's just too versatile to miss and will do pretty much anything in high or null. Hurricanes and harbingers too, to a lesser extent. They are extremely useful and very cheap.

Don't get too sidetracked with feeling like you 'have to' have every single skill that a ship uses to V. Unless you have someone subsidizing your pvp or are plex wealthy, you probably need a BC or BS.

A lot of it depends on your area and what you intend to do to make isk, type of rats, etc. If you're doing lvl 4's then there are some BS's you can jump into that will be pretty forgiving (Dominix comes to mind). WH's, get a tengu. Null has a variety of options.

To me, part of the fun of this game is flying to ships that I want to fly and satisfying my own curiosity. I had kills with 3 different racial BS's before I ever trained for an interceptor, for instance. Was it min/max optimal? Nope. But it sure as hell was fun.

Nero Maxvell
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:44:00 - [5]
 

If you are absolutely sure what you want to train for go with that.
But if you are rushing to bigger ships (higher lvl missions), i'd go for BC quickly and then train up your support skills for BS.

Iris Bravemount
Gallente
Pendragon Inc
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:49:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Hallax
To me, part of the fun of this game is flying to ships that I want to fly and satisfying my own curiosity. I had kills with 3 different racial BS's before I ever trained for an interceptor, for instance. Was it min/max optimal? Nope. But it sure as hell was fun.


Well, I KNOW I want to fly a Damnation eventually. I just don't want to end up broke and/or be useless in fleet ops on my way to that ship.

Hallax
Without Borders Diversified
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:11:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Iris Bravemount

Well, I KNOW I want to fly a Damnation eventually. I just don't want to end up broke and/or be useless in fleet ops on my way to that ship.


Right, command ships are fun to fly. So it's foreseeable that for the damnation you'll want to pick up heavy/HAMs and armor tanking in addition to the ubiquitous battlecruiser skill. It doesn't take much time at all to get these to IV and you can get them to V after a while.

Like I said, it depends on where you are and what you're doing (shield or armor fleets, for instance) but training for a drake or other BC is always a good idea and gives you skills to pay the bills.

Just take it one day at a time and work towards what you enjoy.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:17:00 - [8]
 

If you have level 4 in most aspects of a ship, you can consider moving-on to the next in my opinion. You don't need all 5's first. You can even skip classes of ships.

I personally specialize in cruisers, but have a _lot_ of SP in and battleships, capitals, and industry (Hulk, jump freighter, transports). My frigate skills are abysmal, and I only have Battlecruiser 3 after 2.5 years


Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:46:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Sjugar on 16/08/2011 22:46:42
Going for a battle-cruiser fast while focusing on frigates can be done easy. Just get BC to IV and medium guns to IV and for the rest do frigate skills.

And focusing on frigates helps you in your battle-cruiser also because you know what? Getting good gunnery skills for your frigs, automatically makes your BC do more damage. The T2 small guns are prerequisite for the medium T2 guns. Navigation skills help both, fitting skills help both, caps skills shield skills and armor skills: help both BC and frigates.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:16:00 - [10]
 

You don't really have to look at it as binary as that.

There's no real need to "max out" any particular ship class until you really know that you will need it and use it often. What people talk about when saying that you should wait with the bigger ships is that people who rush often tend to forget about the kajillions of support skills that you need to make the bigger ships work properly. It's actually these support skills you need to max out the most, rather than the ships themselves, because they are the ones that let you fit your ship properly and improve all the base characteristics that make those fits work. This holds true regardless of the ship class you're looking at.

Additionally, training and flying the smaller ships interspersed with training these support skills gives you something to do while “waiting to get done”, so to speak. It also lets you train your skills as a player in something smaller and cheaper, so you get a feel for what the (character) skills give you as you progress. It also gives you a better understanding of what different ship classes have to offer, which is a rather important lesson to learn in EVE: this is not a game where bigger is better — bigger is just bigger, which comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

As for the more direct question, sure, the T1 frigates and cruisers aren't really up to snuff for L4s, but many of their T2 variants are, and flying those in missions offer a rather different kind of game play than sitting in a big bulky DPS-heavy battleship (or even your standard turtle-tanked BC). It's also worth noting that “maxing out” cruisers is pretty much the same thing as maxing out BCs, with the obvious exception that you need to keep training the BC skill rather than your racial cruiser (but you still need the cruiser skill at lvl III to get the second-tier BC, which is the one you want). All other support and weapon skills are shared with the cruiser ships, so maxing out one pretty much means you've maxed out the other.

It's also worth noting that, depending on what ship and weapon systems you pick, you're going to have to train those smaller ships and weapons to a somewhat useful level anyway, as they are prerequisites for the bigger stuff. Missiles and drones are the only real exception here (which, not so incidentally, also happen to be two of the more popular mission-running weapons, quite probably for that very reason) but here too, a large part of the actual training time is dedicated to the myriad of support skills that make them work properly and which you, once again, need to train regardless of the class of ship you're in.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.17 07:25:00 - [11]
 

since looking at 0.0...

look at the requirements of corps you may be eyeing. While not set in stone, the 1-2 combo that gets corps noob friendly...inty well flown (you don't need the inty 5....4 is good enough...good pointing skills and navigation)) and a fleet bc. this will help open doors if your goal,


Only max frigate you need for pvp...is a stealth bomber. coverts ops 5 damage bonus is a no brainer. AF's not liked much....want almost the same fun...take your best combat frigate and go to town. Or run factions frigs.

Purely pve interest, like cruisers....still need the BC. It will make the money to get your dream ship, your t3. It ain't all bad...bc's and cruisers are the same damn training. BC 4...and done, only addition. Like a week of your life iirc. No desire to run command ships, no need to 5 it. tank, weapons....ssds (same shi.... different ship).


Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.17 10:40:00 - [12]
 

I spent a year in frigates and destroyers. Still can't fly a battleship after nearly 3 years although I am (very nearly) maxed out on every combat ship class/race below that.

The only reason to rush into big ships is missioning. You can rat perfectly well in null using a stealth bomber. I don't do PVE at all now - money comes from trading - but I have taken a few people out to Great Wildlands to show them that they CAN rat in bombers. In terms of missioning I could do pretty much all L3 combat missions in a Rifter - was slow but very do-able. That got me enough iskies to start trading.

I've come to the conclusion that continuing to train a character past 55mill SPs is foolish if you do a lot of PvP. The clone costs become high enough to be quite annoying. Much better to simply build another specialised character - eg Othran can't fly battleships (and probably never will) but his alt can. Of course that really requires a spare account initially but once you got a couple of highly specialised characters built then one account will do nicely.


Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Othran
I spent a year in frigates and destroyers. Still can't fly a battleship after nearly 3 years although I am (very nearly) maxed out on every combat ship class/race below that.

The only reason to rush into big ships is missioning. You can rat perfectly well in null using a stealth bomber. I don't do PVE at all now - money comes from trading - but I have taken a few people out to Great Wildlands to show them that they CAN rat in bombers. In terms of missioning I could do pretty much all L3 combat missions in a Rifter - was slow but very do-able. That got me enough iskies to start trading.

I've come to the conclusion that continuing to train a character past 55mill SPs is foolish if you do a lot of PvP. The clone costs become high enough to be quite annoying. Much better to simply build another specialised character - eg Othran can't fly battleships (and probably never will) but his alt can. Of course that really requires a spare account initially but once you got a couple of highly specialised characters built then one account will do nicely.




I don't agree. I got in battleships real late as well but for me they are quite useful. Nothing snipes like a battleship and you also get special ships like the Bhaalgorn or Black Ops. And of course they open up the capital route. Their base damage and tank is also real good for slugfests.

And on training new characters, well there's easily 30M SP applicable to nearly every single ship you'll be in. Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic, Navigation, some Science, Drones, often Gunnery and Missile support. I'd hate having to train all that again just so that char can sit on the same account with a slightly different skillset.

Of course high end clones are really expensive, but they're still not nearly as expensive as a good hardwiring or pirate implant set.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:16:00 - [14]
 

I just found it more effective to have one character for small ships and another for big ships. As I said it does initially depend upon you having 2 accounts but there's a surprising amount of skills which simply don't overlap - I'm talking about PvP rather than PVE of course. A classic example is drone skills - there's simply no point to heavy drones for Othran as he doesn't normally fly Gallente or a Curse/Pilgrim. For the alt they are important - as are fighters and fighter-bombers.

Re the clone costs - it depends how you "do" PvP. If you're normally in a big fleet then the costs are irrelevant as you simply won't have than many pod losses for it to become a factor. If you're solo or in very small gangs (under 10) then the pod losses become expensive enough to be irritating, and in some cases discourage "WTH, lets try it anyway" engagements.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Othran
I just found it more effective to have one character for small ships and another for big ships. As I said it does initially depend upon you having 2 accounts but there's a surprising amount of skills which simply don't overlap - I'm talking about PvP rather than PVE of course. A classic example is drone skills - there's simply no point to heavy drones for Othran as he doesn't normally fly Gallente or a Curse/Pilgrim. For the alt they are important - as are fighters and fighter-bombers.



Well capital weapon skills like fighters and fighter bombers are something else, but drone skills (which is already something that doesn't always apply like engineering, etc.) are something that nearly every combat ship above a certain size will use. Surely they won't always be heavy drones, but just the heavy drone skill is fairly irrelevant compared to the whole set of drone skills.
Same applies to gunnery support as all races have gunnery ships. And every race other than Gallente has some missile ships (not even counting stealth bombers)

Originally by: Othran

Re the clone costs - it depends how you "do" PvP. If you're normally in a big fleet then the costs are irrelevant as you simply won't have than many pod losses for it to become a factor. If you're solo or in very small gangs (under 10) then the pod losses become expensive enough to be irritating, and in some cases discourage "WTH, lets try it anyway" engagements.


Well back in 0.0 I always flew support which still dies a lot in fleet fights. Not to mention bubbles are far more often present in those situations. Though pods are usually low priority.
But currently I barely ever fly with a big gang except for specific ops. ESPECIALLY in small gangs individual strength counts a lot and this can be greatly helped by the use of implants. Now in addition to the hardwirings, I tend to use high-end attribute enhancement implants but if I would stop training, I'd just have pirate sets in which are even more expensive.

You're right that high clone costs are annoying for hopping into a cheap jumpclone, grabbing a rifter and going through 0.0 for the lulz. I do think they are a bit high. I just value the added possibilities on my main character more than this isk. And on the whole the cost of my implants is far more relevant than my clone cost.

I do have 3 trained characters but currently they're on separate accounts. I am going to move one of them and drop the third account, but this is mostly due to plex prices and because it's an alt that I don't need to train any further for his specific role. Personally I don't think I'll ever stop training my main for as long as I play Eve.

Commander IceQ
Caldari
Spit and Ductape Maintenance
Trade Wind Commodities
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:17:00 - [16]
 

I have a Char that has Caldari Cruiser 5 and Gallente & Amarr Frigates on 5 (Don't ask how that happened. Smile).

The char I am posting with is a can fly, almost, all Caldari T2 ships.

I am currently training Projectile, mixed in with the Minmatar ship training. Example:

-> Frig4 -> T2Small Projectile -> Frig5
-> Cruiser4 -> T2Med Projectile -> Cruiser5
-> BS4 -> T2Large Projectile -> BS5* (yes 5)

* Will train Gallente BS4 before going for Minmatar BS5, guess you can see where that one is going.

I have All Missile & Gunnery Support Skills on 4, Shield & Armour Tanking skills on at least 4. So I can fit any tank, I can use all Missiles (T2) and all Guns (T1).

So as you can see I jumped around a bit, experimented with different things. I only started going into T2 ships in the last 2 years (out of 4), so I say have fun, fly what you want to fly. As an ex-ceo of mine said "You can make a difference in a fleet, even if you are flying a Condor.". So doesn't matter what you fly, as long as you are having fun.


Iris Bravemount
Gallente
Pendragon Inc
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:38:00 - [17]
 

Ok guys,

thank you very much for the input.

Torva Licentia
Posted - 2011.08.29 04:27:00 - [18]
 

Just my 0.02 as someone who started playing 3 months ago (just crossed over 4m SP)...

I raced into battleships because...well...battleships. Need I say more?

I don't necessarily regret it. I got a lot of use out of my Megathron and recently reached a point where I can solo most level 4 missions without much difficulty (some are slow, but most are safe). At the same time, I'm now going back and filling in all of the skills that are of universal benefit to any combat pilot. Skills like Shield Operation, Mechanic, and Hull Upgrades directly affect every ship you'll ever fly. No sane combat pilot is going to turn up their nose at a passive 25% bonus to base HP. Engineering and Electronics spell the difference between "everything fits nicely" and "one less gun". And then there's everything that goes into bridging the gap between T1/named and T2.

I knew early on that there would be a big difference between being able to make a battleship active and leave a starbase in it and getting the most out of it in a combat situation, but my training plans always revolved around the prerequisites for the next big shiny. Now that I've sort of reached the shiny I want and have had a chance to sit back and soak in all of the other skills necessary to get the biggest bang for my ISK,

I think the big difference for me is that it takes maybe a week or two of training to bridge the gap from frigate to BS + associated weapon system skills. The benefit to me in being in a BS is the lazy factor of much higher shield/armor/structure HP to offset my novice badisms a bit.

The main thing for me, especially after having just recently set up a second account for an active alt, is that battleship combat is boring compared to frigate combat. Frigates are zippy and mobile and you're moving all over and it's interesting to watch. In my battleship, I tend to just plop down in one spot and play turret. I'm sure a more dedicated and experienced player would point out to me that yes, the transverse velocity you can generate with 100m/s would, in fact, cut down on some of the damage you take, but that just means I end up with a 150-200km+ wreck belt that I have to move through and salvage when the mission is over.

Long story short, I think it really does come down to preference. Battleships don't take much longer to get into, but they take a lot longer to grow into. Battleships more easily support a 'lazy' style of play that may reduce the learning benefit you get out of flying a smaller ship where you have to actually account for navigation as a significant part of survival.

But...still...battleship. Pewpew. Love it.

SomeHardLovin
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:15:00 - [19]
 

You'll wanting to be maxing out the "core" skills.. those skills that transfer to any ship and most weapons other than missiles. Engineering, mechanic, propulsion etc. Things that make your ship more agile, move faster, tank harder. The rest is all just icing. Once you have those skills its ok that your guns are only Level 3, and the ship is only level 3 or 4.

This even applies to mission running. If you are running to a big ship you are likely running to level 4 missions as well, which in some cases can hit pretty hard. Even if you just got your new Raven today, with the core skills maxed out you will be able to take it in and survive without much trouble. If you foolishly go in with a Tech 1 shield setup you are going to get eaten alive.

Khira Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:37:00 - [20]
 

If you do not have the support skills to properly fly a small ship, what makesyou think you can fly a larger ship with any kind of success. Bigger ship does not equal success. What I have learned is that without the support skills to fly a ship a pilot is pretty much screwed. So train up those support skills as you fly the smaller vessels. When you have maximized your skills - then and only then should you attempted to fly the larger vessel. I learned the lesson the hard way. Do not make the same mistake. Train those support skills!!!

Besides flying bigger vessels is so utterly boring. I rarely fly anything larger than cruiser now. They are just more fun to fit and fly. ^_^


 

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