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Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:04:00 - [61]
 

For all those looking for statistics on effectiveness - STOP ASKING. A good magician never reveals his tricks. In other words - CCP shouldn't tell us (and thus any bot user who might be reading it) their tricks of the trade and results. This is to stop any information from being gleamed and thus used back against CCP.

So STOP ASKING. Just be happy CCP is doing more and arming the citizens of New Eden to fight to keep EVE fair.

Flame on!

/Grady

Riffix
The Graduates
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:06:00 - [62]
 

As good as this feature is, I really think there needs to be some feedback for people who use the feature, especially for those who generate too many false-positives. Rolling Eyes

idea
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:18:00 - [63]
 

I'm loving how CCP always wants there player base to do there job for them...

Report a bot - "If you are wrong you could be banned"

First of all i just wanna congratulate CCP on failing at this task for this long.

Second of all here are a few methods to detect bots:

Method 1:
1. NPC kills per null sec system from 100-400 per hour
2. activity drops when population is more than 1?
3. if not is member same corp or same alliance?
4. Activity more than x hours per day x days a month?

Method 2:
1. Amount of missions per day more than x
2. Character runs missions for same agent continuously without breaks?

Method 3:
1. Mining for more than x hours per day?
2. Mining x many days a month?

Seriously, if any of so called "normal time estimate" are reached then you have a very high chance of a BOT and there for he should be investigated.

Celebris Nexterra
Gallente
Jupiter Force
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:22:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Jane Madres
Edited by: Jane Madres on 16/08/2011 20:46:57
Some things to think about.
1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner.
2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW.
3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price.
4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\
5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that "hay im waisting my time trying to play a game im paying for." basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio.
6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? why are they lazy??
7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.


^Can I report this person for botting right now?

Not to mention all of that is an absurd amount of wrong. Botting ruins EVE more than any bad balancing decision CCP could ever make.

Maggie Dezno
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:03:00 - [65]
 

i do not use bots at all. but I occasionally mine, and it is very repetitive work. how would I react to being target locked? I'd get the f out of wherever I am. chances are I'd be on my way out the moment you warped in. is this something bots do as well?

i.e. I don't know how you'd be able to tell a bot from a human miner doing the same repetitive work. all the stuff suggested in the dev blog sounds like it would take time to do, who the hell wants to do this when there's a game to play?

Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:42:00 - [66]
 

And the masturbots?

Must we report ourselves?

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:34:00 - [67]
 

its simple
announce the name, credit card numbers, email, IP address,
corp, alliance, region and system of botters found.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:58:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Jane Madres
Edited by: Jane Madres on 16/08/2011 20:46:57
Some things to think about.
1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner.
2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW.
3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price.
4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\
5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that "hay im waisting my time trying to play a game im paying for." basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio.
6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? why are they lazy??
7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.


1) Possibly some percentage of it... yes.

2) This would cause a huge profitability buff for actual player miners. It will not force you, you can choose what's profitable and fun for you yourself.

3) Ice mining would be more profitable too. Actual players that mine ice will enjoy it and some other players that haven't mined ice before will join the fun. Open market is a wonderful thing.

4) Player income is the biggest factor in deciding PLEX prices. If PLEX prices hit the upper limit of player's income, you can't sell it (or sell it as fast as you expected) and the prices will drop.

5) Bots will be banned in numbers. Players will stay. No one can force you to do anything. It's your choice what you'll do in the game. Personally, I've enjoyed numerous times being in mining fleet with a couple of friends after long and stressful day at work. I don't know if you ever experienced a pressure of 3-4 different major projects on your back with a deadline set to yesterday. You know... the kind of work that you'll do for 10-12 hours a day and be too tired to go out so you stay at home. Talking with friends that play EVE (who are often your RL friends as well) while mining could just be the good way to take out the stress. It's not all "fun" and "work", sometimes you just have to enjoy "tranquility" as well.

6) We do pay them. Don't know if they are lazy, but I know that they haven't moved much in developing backend server side bot detection tools.

7) Real miners who cry real tears. Much more delicious than cold, silent ignoring from bots.

Coco Caine
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:23:00 - [69]
 

While I appreciate your efforts, they are futile.

How about investing your time in improving and fine tuning game mechanics so that activities can't be easily macroed with a few lines of script?

Activities like mining are so offensively mind numbing, forcing people to actually do it is sort of a human rights violation.

Nannageddon
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:15:00 - [70]
 

My subtle and evil idea to deal with bots


Once a character is firmly suspected of being a bot the character is silently flagged by CCP as such. Then, the fun begins. (This is an example for the 0.0 ratting bot)

Every NPC spawn that character encounters has a small, but significant chance that it will deal considerably more damage than usual, of a different damage type and that it will deploy a lot of warp disruption.

By "considerably more" I mean: enough to melt their ship quite quickly - too quickly for a program to respond. Basically, you occasionally turn an NPC spawn into Concord, but just for that character and just until their ship is dead.

CCP can just deny all knowledge of any such program and the botters can just keep losing ships to the point that they can't realistically profit. Sure, they might be fine for a few days, then BLAM, that ratting Raven gets melted by the rats in 5 seconds flat. What's the bot user going to do - petition it? Laughing

If any genuine player were caught out, they would petition and the evidence would support them. More importantly, they would probably petition straight away - the botter less so.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:20:00 - [71]
 

Now it's time to take a ceptor/bomber through russian space and people will have a 2 week window to take over everything hehe...
And yes I bet someone will be busy sorting out bots and players for the next few months

Pinky

Cassidy Usaro
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:26:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Cassidy Usaro on 17/08/2011 09:29:11
i think the blog should make clear, that most state of the art bots are client modifications, which result not in a warning suspension but in an instant permanent ban. Furthermore, i think the blog should point out, that CCPs action is not limited to the account but to a full fletched investigation of all accounts that interact with the flagged account or are driven from the same IP.
So anyone using bots should be aware of not just loosing a 15 mil SP char of limited value but all his chars.

Nevertheless, flagging of bots by the EVE community is a good thing !

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 10:19:00 - [73]
 

Useless.

I bet more innocents will ever be reported than guilty individuals.

Pawnee
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.17 10:29:00 - [74]
 

Quote:
First offense: 14 days ban
Second offense: 30 days ban
Third offense: Permanent ban


This tells me, you did not learn anything.

The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.



Celine Cavin-Guang
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:16:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Pawnee
Quote:
First offense: 14 days ban
Second offense: 30 days ban
Third offense: Permanent ban


This tells me, you did not learn anything.

The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.



I think You've misread the blog, the bans and warnings are NOT put on the characters but on the account itself. It doesn't matter if or where the reportet player moves his character(s), as soon as one of his character is reportet a second time, 14 days ban, as soon as one of his characters is reported a third time, account permaban.

Appetite
Gallente
Silent Service Operations
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:24:00 - [76]
 

I have to admit it sounds good, as long as CCP takes into account the fact that this feature will be abused. I do quite a bit of mining, no bots, react when I am paying attention(that's for you Karina, and dropping by with the Geddon the other night).

I do wish CCP would tweak mining, maybe making hidden belts the norm, having to be scanned down, which makes them random if mined out.

I just think caution is the word, and be smart about using human interaction to be the final determining factor as to where a bot might actually be a real miner who's bored and afk'ing, doing the same old thing, over and over again.

Tarrn
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:57:00 - [77]
 

This tactic can't yield any exact proof. There are too many variables, and a strong chance of abuse. What exactly does this fix?

Now all we need is in game "Report a Troll" button... It can be green.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:50:00 - [78]
 

Just curious, is this in addition to "Report ISK Spammer" ?

I only see that at the moment. Cheers.

Tiruriku
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:54:00 - [79]
 

When reporting a bot it shouldn't just be a single button. Allow (or better yet, require) the user to type in what behavior they observed that makes them suspect a player is botting. "Declined my invitation to chat" could mean you're a bot, or it could mean you're sick of people testing to see if you're a bot.

Also whatever verification CCP does should be very thorough and assume innocence despite what a single person reports. If you're ice mining and don't respond to a GM request within 30 seconds it does not mean you are a bot, it means you are somebody who doesn't want to stare at an ice cube for 20 minutes. Send an EVE mail or email or something involving a little effort for verification.

If this works and avoids false positives then great.

Plato Idari
Posted - 2011.08.18 02:45:00 - [80]
 

I'd like to suggest that the ability to report a market order directly as a bot be added. There are several suspicious traders I've noticed in a few low volume high price markets. I don't want to pay them 200mil isk just to get their name and report them.

Celine Cavin-Guang
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:14:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Tiruriku
When reporting a bot it shouldn't just be a single button. Allow (or better yet, require) the user to type in what behavior they observed that makes them suspect a player is botting. "Declined my invitation to chat" could mean you're a bot, or it could mean you're sick of people testing to see if you're a bot.

Also whatever verification CCP does should be very thorough and assume innocence despite what a single person reports. If you're ice mining and don't respond to a GM request within 30 seconds it does not mean you are a bot, it means you are somebody who doesn't want to stare at an ice cube for 20 minutes. Send an EVE mail or email or something involving a little effort for verification.

If this works and avoids false positives then great.


I second that.

Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:26:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Glaso Fruixette
Edited by: Glaso Fruixette on 16/08/2011 13:56:29
Actually it's quite simple to spot a bot.
-It has a chinese or a "dkjsdfjdfh" name
-They undock in mass
-They all fly in ravens

I see this every day after 18h eve time.


I would love to see a video of this. I would also love to see a way to attach said video to the bot report.

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:50:00 - [83]
 

What a massive load of Pollux! Very Happy

Medai Kesrith
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:26:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Cassina Lemour

I've noticed a decline in mining bots, but there are others, the most annoying type are the complex camping bots, which won't be making lots of repetitive actions, but equally unfair.




I don't know if those complex camping bots became more but it was the first one i reported using the button. And i will gladly report any suspicious behaviour i see as described in the dev blog, no hestitation at all. It's not my duty to proof if it's a bot or not that's CCP job.
Eve will be a better place with less bots.

Pawnee
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:32:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Celine Cavin-Guang
Originally by: Pawnee
Quote:
First offense: 14 days ban
Second offense: 30 days ban
Third offense: Permanent ban


This tells me, you did not learn anything.

The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.



I think You've misread the blog, the bans and warnings are NOT put on the characters but on the account itself. It doesn't matter if or where the reportet player moves his character(s), as soon as one of his character is reportet a second time, 14 days ban, as soon as one of his characters is reported a third time, account permaban.


Are you trying to white-knight for botters?

If you report a botter most likely - like PVP-loss petitions - CCP's log files never ever show anything. No proof - no 14days ban. They even give botters a warning and even another one. If a botter gets a warning, he knows, he has to go more low profile for a while and find out, what lead to the petition. Most will not stopp, becuase the rule give them plainty of time to adapt and make more than enough profit before a possible perma-ban happens. This rule shows well enough, how much CCP honor honest players. CCP does not give a ****. Some players are more equal than others.


Celine Cavin-Guang
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:39:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Celine Cavin-Guang on 19/08/2011 09:30:07
Edited by: Celine Cavin-Guang on 19/08/2011 09:24:38
Originally by: Pawnee


Are you trying to white-knight for botters?

If you report a botter most likely - like PVP-loss petitions - CCP's log files never ever show anything. No proof - no 14days ban. They even give botters a warning and even another one. If a botter gets a warning, he knows, he has to go more low profile for a while and find out, what lead to the petition. Most will not stopp, becuase the rule give them plainty of time to adapt and make more than enough profit before a possible perma-ban happens. This rule shows well enough, how much CCP honor honest players. CCP does not give a ****. Some players are more equal than others.




And now I am truly and utterly confused. I just told You, that the bans and warnings are issued to a certain account, not the character that belongs to this account. This means, it is irrelevant if the bot using player moves his or her character to another region or not. Please explain to me how this is "white-knighting".

Please note also, CCP Pollux didn't say wether the (what do we call it? Bot use marks/flags?) marks, are tied to an account permanently or not.

Speaking of which, now I've got a question for CCP Pollux: If a player receives a (presumably justified) 14 or 30 days ban, is that account marked permanently or not?

Please say permanently, thank You CCP Pollux.

Pawnee
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.19 10:28:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Pawnee on 19/08/2011 10:42:09
You argue with me about the difference character/account. I do not see any point. Most botting characters run appr. 23h, so their owners calculation is anyways: account = botting char = paid in a couple of hours/days = rest is extra profit. Like I said, the main problem seem to be more, CCP does not find anything, even if an obvious botter gets petitioned. I am talking about some ratters, who let me put up bubbles in every belt, then still start rattng, get stuck in the bubbles and slowboot into them until I come back in the system, find and kill them. CCP never ever found anything on my petitions vs them. That is the real problem. Also, some of these bots get petitioned certainly several times from more than one person. After some long time, the botter maybe even gets his first 14days ban. The account owner reacts of course. And so on. It is like with some RL mobsters, in the end never any conviction, which hit them hard.

This 3 step rule says everything. There is no anti-mob law and no real will to hunt cheaters. CCP prefers to believe in the good of somebody, caught botting in the dark and harsh Eve Univ... Well, it is a paid account, and maybe he really, really will change his mind? They give to way too many accounts 14days bans, though the real owner overall has a history over years in botting. Like I said, it is not very hard to find out, some accounts are related, if they are in the same Corp or Main-Alliance/Pet-Alliance and come often online at the exact same time. But hey, 3 step policy. First find countless times nothing, then maybe 14days ban for 1 account, which the botter has written off a long time ago anyways.

I gave up petitioning possible bots like many other players a long time ago. I never saw any positive result in a long time. Since the last scandal, this blog is the first sign, we see again. There is nothing new in it, which would make me believe in future CCP will have a higher success rate in catching and especially getting tehese cheaters out of the game. I mean the real guys behind it, not only 1 account from them.

The next blog might bring hopefully some real news.




Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:22:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Sarmatiko on 19/08/2011 13:23:20
Quote from one of the bot sites from russian developer of EvePilot commercial bot:

Quote:
Dont know how about bot war, but sales go well. The number of bots increases and regulated rather by desire to play/bot then by actions taken by CCP. You can look into in-game prices stats. When there was nothing to mine in empire, asteroids were small and did not appear in every belt, prices for trit were very high (about 5). Now, after several ban waves CCP made, I dont see any considerable changes in the market. I would rather make economical/gameplay changes to make the game less comfortable for bots rather to hire additional people for doing, in principle, nothing useful. Like attempt to drive away all flies out of the room in summer, when the door is still open.


What steps CCP will make to take down his site (located in US California btw) and to shut down this mining and trade bot?

mirosan
Posted - 2011.08.19 17:07:00 - [89]
 

Thank you for coming with this GREAT idea about bot reporting. Took you only 9 years. Congrtulations CCP

Khadann
Caldari
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:58:00 - [90]
 

Cool Feature!

Can we report bots directly from the forum?!

The botter hunt season can finally start... thanks CCP :)


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