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Armonda Secheh
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:35:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Armonda Secheh on 16/08/2011 14:36:19
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Armonda Secheh
may i ask how do u intend to get 00-space botuser reportet?
They ll warp to savespot / dock at station everytime a not-blue-standing pilot is entering the system.

Its a nice idea and may be the fear of highsec botuser, but the bigfishes ll be untouched.


Don't be red?

The use of the report bot feature cannot be detected by your alliance leadership. This sounds like a good use of spies. Fly about and report all the bots.





Spies wont blow their cover just about some boting-toons, but may be it is an option to add entire systems to a watchlist for extra survaliance by anti-bot-forces
i.e. select * from System_nps_kills > 1000 & spacesec < 0.0 for last 12 hours
or select * from System_mining_amount > 1k m & spacesec < 0.0 for last 4 hours


Originally by: SwissChris1


QFT!

??


Claire Voyant
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:36:00 - [32]
 

Thanks for this, but I have some questions about the implementation. Was it intentional that this option is not available from the right-click menu? Are you trying to make it harder to find so people don't hit it accidentally or so people don't find it too easily and abuse it? As it is, the average player will never find this on his own. He has to be shown where it is.

David Carel
Caldari
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:50:00 - [33]
 

This is just a fancy button for a petition anyway.

Forest Hill
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:02:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Forest Hill on 16/08/2011 15:02:18
Originally by: Vincent Athena
This sounds like a good use of spies. Fly about and report all the bots.


It's not spying.. it's economic sabotage. Even better! This could become a new profession Razz

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:37:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Claire Voyant
Thanks for this, but I have some questions about the implementation. Was it intentional that this option is not available from the right-click menu? Are you trying to make it harder to find so people don't hit it accidentally or so people don't find it too easily and abuse it? As it is, the average player will never find this on his own. He has to be shown where it is.


I know! How about CCP post a devblog telling everyone where it is?


Mezmeriza
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:42:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Mezmeriza on 16/08/2011 15:48:37
Which really means that CCP wants all the good people of EVE to police their own game. And has a few problems:

1) Finding the bots. Have CCP looked at the map recently? Look at the amount of space held by the DRF/DC/ Test/ROL/etc. If they wanted to bot, they could any number of quiet systems and leave them in secure knowledge that the only people that will even see them wil be other people in the alliance possibly doing the same thing. They aint going to get reported. Any of the large space holding entities will not be bothered.

2) Bots have a wonderful things built in like cloaks, warp to pos and even log off scripts. Some even have auto respond to messages in local. So once you find a suspect, you will probably have to sit around for a really long time to find out. If they cloak, they wont uncloak and continue ratting untill you log off / leave system. If they go to a pos same thing. And if they log off in some way. They may not log back in for 2 hours. You guna wait that long?? And feel free to say "Hi" in local, they will respond and then act like they're ignoring you.
Going to a POS/ cloaking/ logging off doesnt always mean they're a bot, just not stupid if your a red/ neut. They probably wont if your blue but would you report a corp mate/ alliance mate?

3) The penalties are just laughable. Some of these bot owners will not give 2 tears about it, as they will have other accounts to use while 1 of their accounts is supsended for a gruelling 14 days. Oh NOOEES!! Thats a massive loss for them compared to the last 2 years theyve been running none stop 23/7/365 at 500M+ per day. And linking those bots to main accounts will be likely impossible due to transactions being done inside corps and you cant ban an enitre corp and that the people will more than likely be using dedicated bot PCs so as not to disturb normal eve play so IP checking wont help. And even if they get banned, its not a problem for it is just one char. They can just start another using the massive isk already generated to buy the GTCs till the char can fly a basic drake to perma rat.

A more simple solution would be to have a nice simple program that just logs time played per char. 1 person would be extremely unlikely to rat in 1 system for more than 10 hours a day. This action of being online and ratting solid for 10 hours using this program could/ SHOULD throw up flags to the CCP overlords. They can then investigate it properly by looking at actions and history of actions. Surely that isnt going to make that much difficulty for the servers. After all, all it is doing is logging time online. Capped at 10 hours is a fair thing. And any char online for 23 hours is a deffo bot if ratting that whole time. When found they should just perma ban that character, and IF they found the name of the main char/ account, that account should also get the ban.
Another method of proof required to ban the account, the char will never have had a payment made to it. It will have been purely GTCs. Proof of alt as someone had to buy them in the first place. More expensive than subscribing to EVE directly, and no card/payment to link accounts.

To sum this up...

YOUR IDEA IS FLAWED

Neyko Turama
Minmatar
RAGNAROK INDUSTRY
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:14:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
Try to determine if the player you are observing seems to act repetitively according to a strict set of rules (for example, executing the same steps over and over for an extended period of time)


So, im supposed to do ccps work? and...of course, pay for it?

interesting.

this is going to fail.

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:29:00 - [38]
 

Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistant failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.

There, problem solved.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Lemming Lass
Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistant failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.

There, problem solved.


CAPTCHAs have been broken. You have the bot send the image to a company in India that has a person type in the answer, for some quite small fee.

So all they will do is annoy real players.

Also just so everyone knows: CCP has been doing their own Bot hunting and killing. Other posters have indicated that the bot "roid ripper" has been pretty much eliminated from existence by CCP efforts. To see the effect for yourself, look at ice prices over the last year. CCP efforts were stepped up around March-April.

frank frank
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:14:00 - [40]
 

sreegs

Byron D
GoneMental
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:18:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: demonfurbie
best .... dev blog ..... EVER

here i come drf space with my army of cloaky alts



Right behind you mate :)

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:21:00 - [42]
 

Awesome!

Now you just have to automate a Polaris frigate team to come nuke all these botters! Very Happy

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Lemming Lass
Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistent failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.

There, problem solved.


CAPTCHAs have been broken. You have the bot send the image to a company in India that has a person type in the answer, for some quite small fee.


Well that's clever, if something of a drag, but can that process happen *quickly* enough? A consistent pause in the response should be detectable. This is important because bots could simply identify a captcha request and sound an alarm, bringing in an AFK "player". Also, would the fee be so small for custom, random events as opposed to bulk hacking?



Originally by: Vincent Athena


So all they will do is annoy real players.



I'm not suggesting a frequency rate that would annoy. Only those that failed to quickly respond to the rare captcha would be tested more often until a pattern could be established. And perhaps this "report a bot" thing could initiate a captcha as a first, automated test. But then, if as you say, the captcha process is outsourced and if it has virtually no lag, then the point would be moot, at least for those willing to pay.

Mrs Brisby
Caldari
Cambridge Support
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:41:00 - [44]
 

I still feel that bots that are in NPC corps should be able to be fired on if there confirmed bots by CCP. Let the players punish the bots, banning them will just make then create a new account, hit them where it hurts by blowing there ships up. that and its more fun!

tastypotatoes
Minmatar
Underway Mining and Ops
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:52:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Mrs Brisby
I still feel that bots that are in NPC corps should be able to be fired on if there confirmed bots by CCP. Let the players punish the bots, banning them will just make then create a new account, hit them where it hurts by blowing there ships up. that and its more fun!


This! I would definitely quit my mining job, hop in my Hurricane, and pod some bot miners.

At Hulk prices being around 200M, podding them again and again would definitely hurt their profits. >:)

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:59:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Lemming Lass
Snip


I'd rather put Captchas to players that get reported, but only when they are safe and not under direct threat from other players.

1. Set "bot_reported_flag" as an additional player attribute. Default is FALSE.
2. User reports a player.
3. Reported player gets "bot_reported_flag = TRUE".
4. If reported player is cloaked / docked / inside POS forcefield / etc, send Captcha.
5. If player passes, set "bot_reported_flag = FALSE". If not, do the usual thing with Captchas.

Checking the player's location may add a bit more cycles to the Sol node refresh, but takes the logical step by specifically hunting down bots programmed to move to safety when local changes, etc. At the very least it will make botting a bit more expensive.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:06:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Lemming Lass
......CAPTCHA stuff.......


Im not sure how fast it is. My guess is it would be hard to tell the difference between a player being careful and a bot. Some people have trouble with those.

I also have no idea how the pricing is done, but it could be bulk if its routed through a central bot site, like the site where the bot is sold.

There is also the idea of building CAPTCHA's into the mining process itself. For example, replace the roid field with a couple of single large roids, and make it so different parts of the roid can be independently targeted. Then have the surface deposits show as a crystal pattern. Target the right pattern and mine, you get ore. Target at random, 90% chance you get nothing.

Or have small roids in orbit about the single big one. If you do not watch and fly your ship, one will hit you and bump you out of miner range.

But we must remember, the big isk is made by the Sanctum running bots in null.

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:07:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: DeftCrow Redriver
Originally by: Lemming Lass
Snip


I'd rather put Captchas to players that get reported, but only when they are safe and not under direct threat from other players.


Yes, absolutely, there are plenty of opportunities during "non-hostile" game play. Captchas even when rats are around would not be acceptable.

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:27:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Lemming Lass
......CAPTCHA stuff.......




There is also the idea of building CAPTCHA's into the mining process itself. For example, replace the roid field with a couple of single large roids, and make it so different parts of the roid can be independently targeted. Then have the surface deposits show as a crystal pattern. Target the right pattern and mine, you get ore. Target at random, 90% chance you get nothing.

Or have small roids in orbit about the single big one. If you do not watch and fly your ship, one will hit you and bump you out of miner range.


What, and make mining a little more interesting? Blasphemy! /snark

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:29:00 - [50]
 

Are there still low sec areas where never ending parades of bots do courier missions?

Dex Ironmind
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:18:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Dex Ironmind on 16/08/2011 19:32:14
Edited by: Dex Ironmind on 16/08/2011 19:23:57
Appreciate the small move on the BOT front. BOTTING is a major sandbox game changer and a big reason why NULL holds no allurement to me.

It will take a lot more than this small move to win the battle against BOTS, or at least control it. Until you deal with them on a client level or add some dynamic features to all elements of space that occur frequently and randomly, these BOTS will have the run of the place, particularly in the deep recesses of NULL where big alliances control everything that goes on.

DYNAMIC game features would be your ticket here. Make it a miserable for a BOT program to work consistently, but interactive and dynamic for a real miner.

For example, if mining BOTS have to reset their software every five to ten minutes because their ship got attacked by NPCS more often, AND an asteroid released a gas that they had to react to in a certain amount of time or their mining lasers or ship gets blown up AND their strip mining disrupted the orbit of an asteroid and it headed for their ship knocking it out of range of the asteroid belt, damaging their ship in some way and shutting off their lasers unless they moved. Even something as simple as equipment malfunctions (jammed conveyor, broken mining laser, etc.) would be effective. There are any other of number of dynamics, interactivities and variables you could come up with to make mining more interesting and BOT proof. They just have to happen frequently and randomly.

Make the mechanics of mining more dynamic and interactive and will you not only have another deterrence to botting, you will have made an otherwise mindless and mundane element of your game more interesting for those who actually get out there and do it.

You can do the same with cargo missions. Add an element where an agent gives an in course correction and sends them elsewhere (keeping those places quite random). Cancel a mission midway and have the agent call the pilot back to home base for his reward. Dynamic elements that switch things up that leave the BOT sitting in space doing nothing until it is reset.

The more annoying it is to BOT and the more it has to be micromanaged, the more casual botters you will get to give it up. There will always be hardcore botters. That is an inevitability, but keep them hopping with dynamic and randomly interactive elements that can be easily twinked and changed by your developers and GMs is your ticket to success here. It gives the rest of us some fun too. WIN/WIN.

Dex was here. Cool

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:25:00 - [52]
 

One really helpful tool to identify and track down bots was standings tab in the character info. It allowed us not only to make sure that some character is a bot (unrealistic corporate/faction standings considering the age of the character) but it allowed to track them down to a bot HQ at at that time - Waskisen and to find out that the majority is working exclusively for one corporation - Corporate Police Force. Although I'm not playing that much lately, I've jumped to Waskisen a couple of days ago and my statement from the thread where I've reported 99 bots and described their behavior still stands - Corporate Police Force station in Waskisen system could be obliterated with everyone in it and you'll have only ~20% of actual human's property destroyed. All other CPF stations in the area of 5 jumps from Waskisen are heavily infected as well (Irjunen being the worst of them) and Ohmahailen-Ansila area isn't looking any brighter either. By the way, 99 were reported then; the actual number was closer to 250. Some of them are inactive for a long time, but the rest are still active.

Sadly, I don't have much time to play, let alone dedicate to hunt bots, but that could change in the near future (depending how well my RL job goes in the next couple of weeks). Until then, I'd like to have the answers to a couple of questions, if it's not too much of a problem for you to answer it:

- Is there any other reason to completely remove character standings from the Info window other than reducing server load?
- Are you planning to bring it back in some form (soon)?

It's just too much work without any direct reward to detect the bots. Having at least standings tool available again would make it slightly more manageable.

Thank you for your time.

Gunther Krupp
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:01:00 - [53]
 

I have not read the comments, yet. But reading the devblog, some things came to my mind immediately:

Make the button to report a bot only usable for non-trial-accounts to reduce abuses. Otherwise a heavy bot-using-entity (exempli gratia alliance or corporation) could make their players create trial-accounts to spam the button on any player which would render the whole thing useless.

Next thing to consider: Do NOT give botters a second (or even third) chance! If this cannot be done for some weird (financial) matters, then add a counter to the character sheet, so everyone can see how far away from the abyss this character is. This would help in selling characters via ISK. Otherwise it could be abused, too, by going for the two temporary bans and then selling the character purchasing a new one to compensate and carry on with the whole thing.

Morgal Detage
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:08:00 - [54]
 

I think the simplest way to check if people in a null sec system are botting (responding to reds/neuts entering the system and warping to safe and cloaking) is to bring in a GM player in the system set as blue to everyone in there, then change his standing to red and (with node logging enabled) see how long it takes for the "players" to initiate a warp to a safe. Then change it back and watch them decloak and warp back to their belts (all without the local count changing).

Shouldn't take THAT long to check a system in this way especially if you have some nice automated tools.

Gareth / Morgal

Celebris Nexterra
Gallente
Jupiter Force
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:10:00 - [55]
 

CCP response maybe? There have been several good questions asked so far.

Originally by: Bruno Bummel

[truncated]

But what about bots that operate deep in regions of EVE where there is no real people to notice them. Are automatic detection routines in place to check on people online 23.5/7 that are doing the same thing all day long? A little confirmation that this is beeing worked on is more than enough.


Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 16/08/2011 12:42:53
Will future devblogs expand on your succesful persecution of certain types of bots?

While a 'how to use Report Bot' devblog is ok, it's not nearly as interesting as showing the actual results. Or in other words: how have the efforts of the ESTF made EVE a better place?

Also: would it be possible to release a picture showing in what areas the 'report bot' function has been used the most (or in what areas you've found the most bots, if you have other ways to detect them as well)? Sort of Colour Stars By -> Bots Found.



Originally by: Eric Deloitte
Its the human miners with OCD I feel sorry for in all of this Razz

^and lol.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:11:00 - [56]
 

Welcome Pollux.

One thing I've never understood. 2nd offense should be a permaban right away.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:18:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Hayaishi
Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.


This is my only concern with this. Player miners behave a lot like bot miners.

Which is really indicative of a problem with mining.

Jane Madres
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:24:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Jane Madres on 16/08/2011 20:46:57
Some things to think about.
1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner.
2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW.
3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price.
4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\
5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that "hay im waisting my time trying to play a game im paying for." basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio.
6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? why are they lazy??
7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:55:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jane Madres
Some things to think about.
1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner.
2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW.
3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price.
4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\
5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that hay im waiting my time trying to play a game im paying for. basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio.
6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us??
7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.


Must be hard to get that much bullcrap into that little space....

Like always, the market will balance everything out. First of all, when mining gets more profitable, more ppl will start or go back to doing it. Second, demand will adjust too. If losing ships with high mineral count gets too expensive, ppl will flock to ships with less minerals.

As for forcing ppl to do care bear things, I take it most of the hardcore pvp-crowd is involved in carebeary things already, be it manufacturing, ratting, mining, missioning, exploration etc etc.
PLEX market 'unstable'? Huh, prices on the PLEX market fluctuate like any other price, I guess that makes it unstable to begin with?

Stop whining and go report a bot!

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:57:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Gunther Krupp
.......

Next thing to consider: Do NOT give botters a second (or even third) chance! If this cannot be done for some weird (financial) matters, then add a counter to the character sheet, so everyone can see how far away from the abyss this character is. This would help in selling characters via ISK. Otherwise it could be abused, too, by going for the two temporary bans and then selling the character purchasing a new one to compensate and carry on with the whole thing.


CCP said somewhere that those who have gotten one strike only go on to get a second 8% of the time. (I think in the May CSM meeting minutes). So the 3 strikes policy seems to get results: most do in fact stop botting and play fair.

The strike is against the account, not the pilot. In fact CCP will ban all the player's accounts if one is found botting, even those not botting. There have been tears about this on the botting forums. Selling a character and buying a new one does not remove a strike. Nor does buying a character from a botting account "soil" you, at least not with CCP.


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