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Delana Wolf
Posted - 2011.08.16 08:22:00 - [1]
 

My dear enemys at the market front, dear CCP - let me (re)intruduce a problem which most of us don't know about:

Alchemy

For the readers which don't know what Alchemy in EVE is all about, i recommend:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Alchemy


To put in a good way - no one with at least 10 years in math and a bit of brain would do it.
Here is the breakdown on actual market prices:

unrefined prometium = 51739,90 isk/h
unrefined hyperflurite = 52055,00 isk/h
unrefined ferrofluid = 71490,25 isk/h
unrefined dysporite = 73092,50 isk/h
unrefined neo mercurite = 158260,10 isk/h
unrefined fluxed condensates (vanadium extract)= -176312,10 isk/h
unrefined fluxed condensates (Platin extract) = 2089,90 isk/h

the cheapestk POS (meaning: maintainence) would be:

1x Dread Guri medium Tower
1x moonminer
2x silo
1x simple reaction array
1x Coupling

costing 5 Mio ISK/day - or 208.000 isk/h
=> At best a MINUS of ~42,000 ISK/h


Alternatively:

1x Dreadguri medium Tower
3x Silo
1x simple reaction array


costing 5 Mio ISK/day - or 208.000 isk/h
+ costing 100 units of the lower R16
=> At best a MINUS ~142,000 ISK/h



Please correct me if I'm wrong but that is just bad.
A feature which is in game - but no one with brain would ever use ... or do I miss something vital?


Sincerly

Klymer
Posted - 2011.08.16 09:07:00 - [2]
 

You have ten years in math?


/grumbles about US public eductaion

Delana Wolf
Posted - 2011.08.16 09:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Delana Wolf on 16/08/2011 09:53:56
Well ...

12 year in school - then 2 in university.
then additonal 3.


But well, u don't need a high education to see it to begin with.
An 8th grader can see it (if u provide the nubers for the POS and prices ^_^ )




Sincerly

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:24:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Cyniac on 16/08/2011 11:24:15
You are right, and you are wrong.

You are right that a POS which only does alchemy (going by your figures - I've not checked) would be losing money.

You are wrong in assuming that someone who puts up a POS for alchemy is doing always doing it solely or even principally because of the alchemy - thus alchemy can still happen, as an ancillary function of a POS.

Delana Wolf
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:19:00 - [5]
 

So you are saying

1) "if i have 3155 CPU free i would do Alchemy with one Harvester"
or
2) "if i have 3000 CPU free i would do Alchemy and jump in both components"

then I would say:

"If I have 3310 CPU free i could do a simple reaction at one POS (also a medium dread guri tower - ) with 5,022,187 ISK upkeep (209257,8 isk/h) with a yield of 129.000 isk/h (worse simple reaction) to 1,869,984 isk/h (ignoring R16 and higher)."
There are exactly 2(!) reaction out of 8 which don't finance the tower (139k for silicon diborite and 200k of Ceramic powder). And even they are better then any Alchemy - by double to tripple the amount.


Sincerly

Lando Antilles
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:13:00 - [6]
 

you are also neglecting that you can perform 3 alchemy reactions on a large POS if you are always watching it (filling coupling arrays and onlining defenses as needed since very few can be online w/ the industry mods)

It's too much work for me, but can be profitable.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:07:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: steave435 on 16/08/2011 15:10:04
Alchemy was not designed to be profitable, it was designed to be a way to keep R64 prices in check if they got too high. THe obvious problem though ofcourse is that the most valueable moon mineral now is tech, and there's no alchemy for that.
Basically, if the prices gets high enough, it's worth it, and if they don't, alchemy isn't needed.
Additionally, it doesn't neccecerily have to be something you set up a pos for, it could also be something you add to a pos that was already mining one or both of the materials needed for the reaction.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:51:00 - [8]
 

Alchemy is a "pressure release valve" and a "last-ditch backup" measure.

When prices of alchemically-replaced materials go berserk, alchemy activates its "pressure valve" function and soft-top-caps the price of that material by dragging the replacement material up in price (and hence, also up in moon-mined volume).
When for some reason somebody denies another party access to a certain moon material that can be alchemically replaced, alchemy can also work as a last ditch effort to get what that party needs without access to that particular embargoed material.

Ideally, alchemy would never need to be used under normal circumstances, and should seldom be on par profitability-wise with regular reactions.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 10:28:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: steave435
Edited by: steave435 on 16/08/2011 15:10:04
Alchemy was not designed to be profitable, it was designed to be a way to keep R64 prices in check if they got too high. THe obvious problem though ofcourse is that the most valueable moon mineral now is tech, and there's no alchemy for that.
Basically, if the prices gets high enough, it's worth it, and if they don't, alchemy isn't needed.
Additionally, it doesn't neccecerily have to be something you set up a pos for, it could also be something you add to a pos that was already mining one or both of the materials needed for the reaction.


I wonder, if Tech ever got fully controlled by one power block, how fast the devs would implement tech alchemy, if said powerblock decides to cut the supply of Tech to the rest of eve completely. Tech price at the moment is already way waaay up, because of it's rarity. IMHO tech is far more rare than most R64s, simply because it's only available in certain parts of Eve. Even though it's 'abundant' in those regions, it's still very ONLY available there, making it much easier for a power block to control.
To steal a few bad quotes:
'The Tech must flow.'
'He who can destroy the Tech, controls the Tech, he who controls the Tech, controls the universe.'

Silly, but both statements are actually quite true.




Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:11:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Xearal
I wonder, if Tech ever got fully controlled by one power block, how fast the devs would implement tech alchemy

They are already considering doing that, but for now, only considering.
If price keeps on increasing past a certain level, they might hurry it up a bit more.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:20:00 - [11]
 

Dune Rules!ugh

And do's Tech realy not have a alchemy price control option?

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:29:00 - [12]
 

isn't Tech such a good reason to big wars in 0.0 sov space already? Wasn't NC defeated because of it?

i suppose it is ok when people have reason to fight. Remove Tech uniqueness and you make 0.0 even more quite and dead world of bots.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Miss Rabblt
isn't Tech such a good reason to big wars in 0.0 sov space already? Wasn't NC defeated because of it?
i suppose it is ok when people have reason to fight. Remove Tech uniqueness and you make 0.0 even more quite and dead world of bots.

Having a somewhat valuable resource is good, as it promotes conflict.
Having a resource so valuable, that everything else you can possibly do is completely overshadowed profitability-wise, that's BAD.

Alchemy is a soft price top-cap, dragging another moon mineral price upwards in the process (whichever one is the one replacing the pricey one).

Originally by: Rip Minner
And do's Tech realy not have a alchemy price control option?

Technetium is a part of the second rarity tier as far as moon minerals go, but the Dominion expansion ramped up need for it to sufficiently high levels that even if it's more abundant (in total moon count) than any of the "top tier" rarity moon minerals, it's still THE bottleneck in all T2 production as a whole.

So, no, for now, there's no "Technetium alchemy".
Only "top tier" rarity moon minerals (Dys, Pro, Neo, Thu) have alchemy reactions right now (replaced by 3rd rarity tier moon minerals).

Dysprosium, Promethium, Neodymium, and Thulium can be replaced by Cadmium, Chromium, Platinum and respectively Vanadium.
It happens at 1:5 ratios in reactions (reactions that need 5 times more fuel overall compared to the normal reaction, because the output is only one fifth of normal reaction output per cycle).
That 1:5 ratio used to be 1:20 back in the old days when alchemy was first introduced, but back then, POS fuel was about half price and Dysp/Prom were even more expensive than Tech is nowadays.

Obviously, alchemy is only profitable when the replacement material is far cheaper than the material being replaced (and when the one being replaced is quite expensive), because you need the price of the expensive one to cover 4 extra fuel cycle costs on top of 5 times the replacement material just to break even, then profit is just a fifth of the difference compared to normal reactions per time unit.
Right now, the materials being replaced are not exactly expensive (Neodymium barely comes close) and the materials that replace them are not particularly cheap either (Platinum - the one replacing Neodymium - is the most expensive right now).
So, alchemy is not particularly profitable right now.

IF they ever introduce Technetium alchemy (and probably alchemy reactions for all other 2nd tier materials), they need to be careful which replacement materials they'll choose (most likely, the 4th rarity tier of moon minerals) and what replacement ratios // reaction speeds they select (ideally, they might want to keep ramping the ratio closer to unity, so maybe 1:4 or even 1:3).


 

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