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Jyth Maeson
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:13:00 - [1]
 

What is the best way to make isk off of mining? I did some high sec mining for a while just while I couldn't pay 100% attention to the screen, and made a decent amount of isk considering. Anyone have any advice as to how I can best benefit from having good mining skills and how much isk I would approximately make?

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:14:00 - [2]
 

Are you in a mining corp out in 0.0 or low sec space mining the more valuable rocks that are not found in high sec? What type of miner are you piloting and what do your mining skills look like?

Jyth Maeson
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:47:00 - [3]
 

Currently I am in a Covetor. I can fly a Hulk but I am working towards collecting enough isk to be able to buy one and not worry about losing it. I can equipt t2 strip miners BUT I am still working on getting refinery V (at IV currently) to be able to start training the usage of the crystals.

I am not currently in a mining corp, and so far I have just been playing around in high sec space mining.

daveo911
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:49:00 - [4]
 

Thats actually a really complicated question. I could try to answer it, but you will get much better results if you do some math and read some info on your own.

Here is a great mining guide Halada's guide 3.0
Here is a guide with a lot of great info including a good mining section ISK 3.0


I hope those guides help, be aware they may have some outdated prices so do your own math.

Phugoid
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:59:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Phugoid on 15/08/2011 20:12:25
Hi Jyth....

I also have a Covetor (can get a Hulk, but dont really need it yet), what I do is I mine 2 belts that have rich plagioclase.
But, I have set up 10 Giant Secure Containers on each belt. And as I mine along, I fill the GSCs up (much more efficient then going back and forth to base), then I move on to my second belt, and repeat. Once both belt's GSCs are full, I go to base, grab my Badger Mark 2, which holds just under 20k m3 (about 5 GSCs worth) and pick up the ore. So, thats 2 trips each belt. (One trip with an Iteron V, but it got blown up :( ...)

So after about 2 hours of that I make just under 7 mil for the work, refining the ore of course.

Also, If you want, in this same Index, theres a mining op every Sunday morning, with Orca support. which increase your mining yield....and the peeps running the op are great! I made just under 20mil this past Sunday for about 4 hours work. they pay you 2.1 mil for each can you mine (27k)... which is pretty good considering you dont have to haul it.

So...join the op, or hit me up if you have any questions. I've only played less than 2 years, and have made at least 50% of my ISKSs mining.... :) all hi-sec of course!

CataCourier
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:11:00 - [6]
 

Based on your above posts, I'd suggest getting with a regular mining op that pays a flat rate per can. You'll earn more income faster that way, because they usually have fully boosted orcas and haul for you. Definitely work on getting t2 crystals for high-end ore, that will boost output a lot and help build some reserve ISK.

You can find current ore prices per can by following This Link.

As you can see, a full can (27.5k m3) of veld nets you about 2.9 mil. The various mining ops around empire will pay you 2.1 mil per full can. Even though they pay you 800k less than the full can's value, the benefits they provide are absolutely worth it. They can get your cycle times down to 133sec for strip miners, on top of 15% mining bonus. On top of that, they save you the logistical nightmare of hauling your own ore (which really makes up the 800k).

tl;dr- find an empire mining op corp and immediately convert full cans into ISK.

Ditra Vorthran
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:59:00 - [7]
 

With max skills, it is generally considered more effective to mine with at least two hulks before using an orca.

So if you're mining in a covetor and attach yourself to two hulks and an orca, here's what you can anticipate getting in return.

Assuming profit is divided roughly evenly between miners: 1732m3+1732m3+1300m3=1588m3. 1588m3/1300m3=1.22 or 22% effective yield bonus

Mining Foreman/Implant bonuse: +15% yield bonus

Orca cycle time bonus: 180 sec/135 sec = 1.33 or +33 % effective yield bonus.

The range bonus is too difficult to quantify, but not having to move around in a belt as much would save you at least a few cycles every hour. Not to mention the lack of having to haul ore back to a station. That usually takes at least two cycles, even for an in system haul.

So, 22+33+15 = +70% bonus

And FYI, if you're using T2 strip mining lasers without crystals, switch back to T1s until you can. You'll get a better yield.

Jyth Maeson
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: daveo911
Thats actually a really complicated question. I could try to answer it, but you will get much better results if you do some math and read some info on your own.

Here is a great mining guide Halada's guide 3.0
Here is a guide with a lot of great info including a good mining section ISK 3.0


I hope those guides help, be aware they may have some outdated prices so do your own math.



His W button was broken when writing that guide or it was intentional :P So far it's a great guide thank you for sharing it.

Thanks for all the advice. How long do the Giant Secure containers last? Are they like wrecks and such that only last for a few hours?

Phugoid
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:25:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Phugoid on 15/08/2011 21:26:04


Jyth... GSCs last up to 30 days, as long as you anchor them. Once anchored ONLY you can move/access them. U password protect them, unlike cans, so they cant be flipped, and are practically indestructable. They can only be anchored in .7 or below. They hold 3.9k m3 each, and cant be closer than 5000m to another GSC or asteroid. The 30 day period is how long it will last from your last access to it. So if you forget to visit them at least once a month, they go poooof. Oh, and dont forget to bookmark their location.....

Jyth Maeson
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:35:00 - [10]
 

Sounds like it would be good to find some nice Omber spots and anchor some GSC there. Then I should work on getting a transport ship of some sort, like a badger mark II or something and just fill up the GSC and then come back later and do it that way... Unless of coarse I want to go for the more high end ore and risk losing a ship, but I am pretty happy with low to mid end sort of ore for the time being.

Thanks guys :)

Contessa LeBlanc
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:39:00 - [11]
 

Jyth as a cald pilot i would stay away from the badgers and go with the iterons they can hold more and dont take long to train up for the gallente skills :) just my 2 cents

Ara Soulbright
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:23:00 - [12]
 

Something to consider when anchoring GSCs. Make sure you have a grid of them at more than one belt, as griefers may choose to mine everything from under your nose. That way you can move to your other grid if they cleaned out your spot.

Delta Bacat
Posted - 2011.08.16 07:32:00 - [13]
 

High sec: about 10M per hour
Low sec: DON'T DO IT!
0.0: 30-50M per hour
Wormhole: same as 0.0 sec.

Most of it was said in posts before me.
For afk mining, high sec is the only real option.

Forget low sec, the value you get from the ore is not worth it compared to the amount of times you'll be blown up, especially in a Hulk.

0.0 can be quite safe, as long as you're in an area where you have protection (either from your corps/alliance/renter contract). Keep an eye on local and be ready to switch systems if you have an afk cloaker

Wormhole space is pretty interesting. Use Wash's definition of interesting here. This is not for the afk'er. Take a risk (t1 barge, don't do use Hulk) and get decent profit. You'll be blown up, but you'll only lose t1 stuff. Make sure you have POS access here to dumb your ore in.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.16 09:24:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ara Soulbright
Something to consider when anchoring GSCs. Make sure you have a grid of them at more than one belt, as griefers may choose to mine everything from under your nose. That way you can move to your other grid if they cleaned out your spot.



wow, now other miners are "griefers".

"The early bird gets the worm" and all that.

daveo911
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jyth Maeson
Sounds like it would be good to find some nice Omber spots and anchor some GSC there. Then I should work on getting a transport ship of some sort, like a badger mark II or something and just fill up the GSC and then come back later and do it that way... Unless of coarse I want to go for the more high end ore and risk losing a ship, but I am pretty happy with low to mid end sort of ore for the time being.

Thanks guys :)



like I said, do your own math. Or at least use a tool where the math is done for you like this ore chart. Omber hasnt been good for a long long time.

Sindjin Hawke
RaVeN Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:57:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Sindjin Hawke on 16/08/2011 17:01:10
Originally by: Phugoid
Edited by: Phugoid on 15/08/2011 20:12:25
Hi Jyth....

I also have a Covetor (can get a Hulk, but dont really need it yet), what I do is I mine 2 belts that have rich plagioclase.
But, I have set up 10 Giant Secure Containers on each belt. And as I mine along, I fill the GSCs up (much more efficient then going back and forth to base), then I move on to my second belt, and repeat. Once both belt's GSCs are full, I go to base, grab my Badger Mark 2, which holds just under 20k m3 (about 5 GSCs worth) and pick up the ore. So, thats 2 trips each belt. (One trip with an Iteron V, but it got blown up :( ...)

So after about 2 hours of that I make just under 7 mil for the work, refining the ore of course.

Also, If you want, in this same Index, theres a mining op every Sunday morning, with Orca support. which increase your mining yield....and the peeps running the op are great! I made just under 20mil this past Sunday for about 4 hours work. they pay you 2.1 mil for each can you mine (27k)... which is pretty good considering you dont have to haul it.

So...join the op, or hit me up if you have any questions. I've only played less than 2 years, and have made at least 50% of my ISKSs mining.... :) all hi-sec of course!



2 hours to make 7 million ISK? That is why I no longer mine. I used to mine in my Hulk (Plag) but gave it up. I love the tranquility of mining.... but it's not the best way to make ISK. Last night I ran a Level 4 mission in Hi-Sec and made about 25 million after I went back and salvaged the wrecks... took about and hour and half tops.




Jyth Maeson
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:35:00 - [17]
 

It's certainly not as profitable as I have read it can be. That being said it is nice to be able to set my lasers on go and then just come back and check occasionally on my ship to make sure all is well when mining in high sec. It's not a ton of isk, but it's a lot of isk if you weigh it on a effort to isk scale.

I have a ship that I can solo IV's already with and I am really just looking to be able to have a change of pace or to be able get isk when I can't devote my attention 100%.

CataCourier
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:23:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: CataCourier on 16/08/2011 22:53:36
Originally by: Delta Bacat
High sec: about 10M per hour
Low sec: DON'T DO IT!
0.0: 30-50M per hour
Wormhole: same as 0.0 sec.



Based on current Jita prices, a "good"-orca boosted- hulk pilot nets approx 12mil/hr in empire- provided he isn't hauling his own ore.

Low sec: Hedge and Hemo net just over 20m an hour for a "good"-orca boosted- hulk pilot. That said, way too risky. You'll get a lot of first-time pirates in low sec that will go to the furthest extent to hunt down miners.

0.0: A "good"-orca boosted- hulk pilot averages around 25mil/hour in 0.0. Sure, it's nearly 50m/h when you have ark, but the ark deposits are quickly depleted, so often times you'll resort to stripping belts of Crokite and Bistot (if you're lucky). 0.0 is often times much more safe than low sec.

If you are a hulk pilot mining by yourself, not in fleet, cut the above numbers in half (if not more). A 100% boosted orca increases output of a solo miner by approx 48%, PLUS several additional cycles per hour for hauling. This is why I recommend doing the mining ops above- easier to AFK mine in, and you'll probably make more ISK per hour mining for them as well.


Originally by: Jyth Maeson
Sounds like it would be good to find some nice Omber spots...


Don't mine Omber. Omber is by far the least valuable ore based on Jita prices.

You want to prioritize Pyro > Veld > Kernite in highsec (named varieties first).

A maxed, T2 crystal, hulk pilot with implants and a maxed orca booster can make just over 16mil/hr mining pyro in empire (not including drones).

Ara Soulbright
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:36:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Ara Soulbright on 16/08/2011 23:00:17
Edited by: Ara Soulbright on 16/08/2011 22:49:45
Edited by: Ara Soulbright on 16/08/2011 22:47:43
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Ara Soulbright
Something to consider when anchoring GSCs. Make sure you have a grid of them at more than one belt, as griefers may choose to mine everything from under your nose. That way you can move to your other grid if they cleaned out your spot.



wow, now other miners are "griefers".

"The early bird gets the worm" and all that.


I know what you're getting at, but when a group of ****wits set up a mining op at your 30 GSCs and leave the other half of the belt untouched, that is called greifing. Especially when there is 900k - 2.5m units of ore still to be mined where I was not setup, PLUS 12 other belts in the same system. When I saw what they did, I packed up my **** and moved a few regions away. Now my new setup is 32 cans per belt X 4 belts. This guarantees me my 2.5 hours per day of mining.

Which is 103,200m^3 of ore. <------- That is all I need.
And when I mine those 32 cans, it doesn't even put a dent on the rocks available near my grid.


Edit: grammar, clarity




CataCourier
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:00:00 - [20]
 

For pure ISK reward in empire for a solo miner, has anyone done a comparison of mining in a belt vs doing mining missions? I've never done mining missions (or mined with only 1 character), but it seems like that has the potential to be an option for a solo miner.

Pros: standings, LP, ISK rewards, safer than belts, easier hauling logistics, opportunity to spawn some decent real ore in mission belts (doesn't at least one mission spawn ark?)
Cons: mission ore is worthless, value of missions/lp vs opportunity cost, ????

Dalloway Jones
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:18:00 - [21]
 

Oh please. It is not called griefing. It is called "you do not get to "reserve" asteroids in a belt you silly little tosspot."

Taiwan Dollars
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:00:00 - [22]
 

The best way to make money in HS Sec 1.0 or .9 is the mining Orca.

2 LSE II
1 Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
1 Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
1 Reinforced Bulkhead II
1 Damage Control II
2 Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
1 Large Drone mining Augmentor I

5 Mining Drone II

Works great if you can log on at work.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ditra Vorthran
The range bonus is too difficult to quantify, but not having to move around in a belt as much would save you at least a few cycles every hour. Not to mention the lack of having to haul ore back to a station. That usually takes at least two cycles, even for an in system haul.


Not having to haul ore back to station in a Hulk is one of the sweetest things about having an Orca along in a mining op. Cycle time bonus also helps. I've never understood the benefit of the capacitor usage bonus.

I like the range bonus to strippers, I like it a lot, but it seems to me that for a grand belt mining op, there may be some attraction to foregoing the range bonus, and just having 8 Hulks warping to pre-prepared bookmarks, 4 at one end of the asteroid belt, one sucking veld, one scord, one pyrox, one plag, and the 4 ohers at the other end of the belt, each sucking its own kind of ore.

That way, you never get two Hulks sucking on the same roid, provided their strippers haven't got the range to reach to or beyond the middle of the belt. That's got to be inefficient.

Likewise when mining in a grav sites, there tends to be few roids each containing a lot of ore, so the range bonus doesn't help much. And I understand that ice mining is the same way.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:42:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Ara Soulbright
I know what you're getting at, but when a group of ****wits set up a mining op at your 30 GSCs and leave the other half of the belt untouched, that is called greifing. Especially when there is 900k - 2.5m units of ore still to be mined where I was not setup, PLUS 12 other belts in the same system. When I saw what they did, I packed up my **** and moved a few regions away. Now my new setup is 32 cans per belt X 4 belts. This guarantees me my 2.5 hours per day of mining.


When I conduct high-sec mining ops for 7-15 participants, I just sent a scout to a belt, and if there's nobody already actively mining in that belt at that time, 3-5 Hulks and 1 Orca will warp to it, and suck it dry. Then move on to the next belt where there's no on-going mining. We're like locusts.

Last op was in a system with 12 or 13 belts of ore asteroids,and IIRC we sucked 4 belts empty and put a good dent into two more belts (and that wasn't a particularly large op. We were 1 hauler, 2 Orca and 6 mining ships). We take everything. Veldspar, Scordite, Plagioclase, Pyroxeres. If there's Omber or anything else, we take that too.

We seriously cannot be arsed to look if there are anchored containers.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: CataCourier
Don't mine Omber. Omber is by far the least valuable ore based on Jita prices.

You want to prioritize Pyro > Veld > Kernite in highsec (named varieties first).


Taking Pyroxeres first and Veldspar second is good advice, but obsessing about named varieties within any given ore type is bad. If at all, do possible lock and suck the named types first, but don't move your ship a millimeter in the pursuit of named ores if there are still unnamed ores within range.

Mining ships are slow and un-agile, so they take forever to get to where you want them to be, and if you're even slightly inattentive they'll keep moving past the spot where you wanted then to be.

I often pine for a Homeworld-style interface where I can designate a point in 3D space that I want my ship to move towards and to.

Kadarin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.18 20:14:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kadarin on 18/08/2011 20:14:27
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Ara Soulbright
I know what you're getting at, but when a group of ****wits set up a mining op at your 30 GSCs and leave the other half of the belt untouched, that is called greifing. Especially when there is 900k - 2.5m units of ore still to be mined where I was not setup, PLUS 12 other belts in the same system. When I saw what they did, I packed up my **** and moved a few regions away. Now my new setup is 32 cans per belt X 4 belts. This guarantees me my 2.5 hours per day of mining.


When I conduct high-sec mining ops for 7-15 participants, I just sent a scout to a belt, and if there's nobody already actively mining in that belt at that time, 3-5 Hulks and 1 Orca will warp to it, and suck it dry. Then move on to the next belt where there's no on-going mining. We're like locusts.

Last op was in a system with 12 or 13 belts of ore asteroids,and IIRC we sucked 4 belts empty and put a good dent into two more belts (and that wasn't a particularly large op. We were 1 hauler, 2 Orca and 6 mining ships). We take everything. Veldspar, Scordite, Plagioclase, Pyroxeres. If there's Omber or anything else, we take that too.

We seriously cannot be arsed to look if there are anchored containers.



Agreeing with this. In my case it's just me: 6 accounts, with 4 hulks and 2 orcas. One orca is booster and ore aggregator, the other is hauler. Just position hulks so that I have full belt coverage, and suck it dry.

Ara Soulbright
Posted - 2011.08.19 03:56:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Ara Soulbright on 19/08/2011 04:00:47
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Ara Soulbright
I know what you're getting at, but when a group of ****wits set up a mining op at your 30 GSCs and leave the other half of the belt untouched, that is called greifing. Especially when there is 900k - 2.5m units of ore still to be mined where I was not setup, PLUS 12 other belts in the same system. When I saw what they did, I packed up my **** and moved a few regions away. Now my new setup is 32 cans per belt X 4 belts. This guarantees me my 2.5 hours per day of mining.


When I conduct high-sec mining ops for 7-15 participants, I just sent a scout to a belt, and if there's nobody already actively mining in that belt at that time, 3-5 Hulks and 1 Orca will warp to it, and suck it dry. Then move on to the next belt where there's no on-going mining. We're like locusts.

Last op was in a system with 12 or 13 belts of ore asteroids,and IIRC we sucked 4 belts empty and put a good dent into two more belts (and that wasn't a particularly large op. We were 1 hauler, 2 Orca and 6 mining ships). We take everything. Veldspar, Scordite, Plagioclase, Pyroxeres. If there's Omber or anything else, we take that too.

We seriously cannot be arsed to look if there are anchored containers.



but these guys obviously saw 30 yellow diamonds floating about.. and went as far as going to the ones closest to the middle of the belt and scanning to mine everything that was within 15km range.

and left the other HALF of the belt untouched so when I got to my "grid" every single pebble was gone within range of my 30 GSCs but the other half of the belt was still full of big ass rocks like 100k + units each.

so what they were thinking was this: let's **** this guy's day. I understand when there is a SHORTAGE OF ORE, ****ing be my guest and vacuum it up.. but when there's ****ing 12 belts and a half available and you choose to **** my day.. that's greifing. I don't play all day.. I gotta work in RL.. when I get home.. I want just a taste of what was there.. don't care about OMBER.. don't care about value.. just want 103,000 m3 of "ORE" that's about 15 rocks out of the 200 or more sitting there for everyone.



what if I bought 20 accounts.. and everytime I seen those guys mine.. I install myself up their ass and mine every rock they put their lasers to.. but don't touch anything else around. just for the ****s and giggles.... right?

Dalloway Jones
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:46:00 - [28]
 

You are paranoid as ****. When I mine I don't pay any attention to any cans in the system. I don't have them on my overview and I don't even really notice them. I simply warp to an asteroid that I want to mine from a Turnpoint I created in the belt and then mine everything within range of that asteroid.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:50:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 19/08/2011 08:52:10
Originally by: Ara Soulbright
Edited by: Ara Soulbright on 19/08/2011 04:00:47
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Ara Soulbright
I know what you're getting at, but when a group of ****wits set up a mining op at your 30 GSCs and leave the other half of the belt untouched, that is called greifing. Especially when there is 900k - 2.5m units of ore still to be mined where I was not setup, PLUS 12 other belts in the same system. When I saw what they did, I packed up my **** and moved a few regions away. Now my new setup is 32 cans per belt X 4 belts. This guarantees me my 2.5 hours per day of mining.


When I conduct high-sec mining ops for 7-15 participants, I just sent a scout to a belt, and if there's nobody already actively mining in that belt at that time, 3-5 Hulks and 1 Orca will warp to it, and suck it dry. Then move on to the next belt where there's no on-going mining. We're like locusts.

Last op was in a system with 12 or 13 belts of ore asteroids,and IIRC we sucked 4 belts empty and put a good dent into two more belts (and that wasn't a particularly large op. We were 1 hauler, 2 Orca and 6 mining ships). We take everything. Veldspar, Scordite, Plagioclase, Pyroxeres. If there's Omber or anything else, we take that too.

We seriously cannot be arsed to look if there are anchored containers.



but these guys obviously saw 30 yellow diamonds floating about.. and went as far as going to the ones closest to the middle of the belt and scanning to mine everything that was within 15km range.

and left the other HALF of the belt untouched so when I got to my "grid" every single pebble was gone within range of my 30 GSCs but the other half of the belt was still full of big ass rocks like 100k + units each.

so what they were thinking was this: let's **** this guy's day. I understand when there is a SHORTAGE OF ORE, ****ing be my guest and vacuum it up.. but when there's ****ing 12 belts and a half available and you choose to **** my day.. that's greifing. I don't play all day.. I gotta work in RL.. when I get home.. I want just a taste of what was there.. don't care about OMBER.. don't care about value.. just want 103,000 m3 of "ORE" that's about 15 rocks out of the 200 or more sitting there for everyone.



what if I bought 20 accounts.. and everytime I seen those guys mine.. I install myself up their ass and mine every rock they put their lasers to.. but don't touch anything else around. just for the ****s and giggles.... right?



wait, you expect us to have "cargo container" (or whatever GSCs show up as) on our overviews and/or the brackets enabled when we're mining?

Only things I have on overview are rocks and non-blue PC ships. I then proceed to mine everything in reach... which can be "significant" if I get the right shape (23km mining radius...)

Originally by: Dalloway Jones

Oh please. It is not called griefing. It is called "you do not get to "reserve" asteroids in a belt you silly little tosspot."


Couldn't have said it better myself...


edit --> @ Salpad -- The only "good thing" I've had with the cap usage has been in low/null. Lets me run a tank for a little longer to GTFO ... though many of the newer guys in rets (or cruisers/frigs) for that matter benefit highly because the shortened cycle time thrashes their cap...

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2011.08.19 09:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ara Soulbright



what if I bought 20 accounts.. and everytime I seen those guys mine.. I install myself up their ass and mine every rock they put their lasers to.. but don't touch anything else around. just for the ****s and giggles.... right?



Only internet threats are dumber than grandiose villian evil scheme movie plots. I do particularly enjoy telling Mr Bond how I'm going to kill him as well, and I'm sure that absolutely no one would think of using a Brutix at any stage during your incredibly expensive in real world dollars and time revenge strategy, and that you wouldn't mind losing more than half a plex every time a hulk got suicided.



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