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Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:26:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

You guys all saw the post where I said we'd likely deal with local before addressing the rest of this stuff, right?

Thing is most of us here had more or less the same impression from your previous post on this subject, that being that you werent too concerned with local as an immediate problem that stands in the way of your 0.0 intel plans. Even in this clarification you dont say you will deal with local, but only that youd likely deal with it. I think you can see why you are getting this kind of reaction.

As Mags says above, players consider immediate local a much larger issue than you seem to, the one that has absolute influence on intel collection. Anything that happens to intel after collection is secondary, and should probably be the function of the tool that replaces the current local anyway.

Additionally, strategic intel analysis and sharing is currently done by web-based player-made tools, and arguably this is the best way to do it since you cant have that kind of customizability in-game.



What we're trying to do right now is develop a long-term roadmap, and the reason we're talking to players a lot is that we want to be sure you're all on board with what we're planning. The reason I'm not worried about local in this context is that it's a no-brainer that we need to do something, and "doing something about local" is assumed to have the support of the community provided it's something good. What we're more concerned about right now is what our next step should be after that, because we don't want "change local" to be the only thing about intel on our long-term plan.


From that perspective I think youre moving along the right sort of path. As a scout I would like to patrol through systems 'sweeping up data' as I go. That 'sweep' would rather like the forward path of a radar track - at least to the eyes of a Fleet Commander who I'm relaying that data to (almost certainly viewable through the Universe Map. Over time that information is going age, quite fast in fact, and might allow for missing critical details (hurrying through an area for example).

If something like that is feasible I think it could add value to a typical scouts role, and that of the FC?

C.

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:32:00 - [152]
 

Alright, so now that we have your intentions clear Greyscale we can focus on what to do after it now.

all im going to say is assuming local is completly removed or is severly limited as to the real time info it provides.

I agree with Bloodpetal. The fleet intel buttons need updated to the information that we use most. His sit rep report idea is also a must, gives the commander a tactical written view of what he has in front of him and allows him to make more informed decisions. In fact all the info she has on fleet intel you should highly consider.

For the individual i believe the Directional scanner should be the main intel gather tool. I.e. is there an enemy near me or is that a friendly ship i see because i recognize the name? this will not only allow the player to be aware of his suroundings but if you have it on a 2 minute natural refresh it will stay up to date. Or as someone mentioned make it take longer for a huge scan with it.

That idea is all well and goo but i believe you should have the option of removing yourself from this scan. after all this will add to the ability to hide yourself from being found if you should so wish. To balance this the down side would be removal from all chat channels. after all if your going to run "dark" you cant put out any transmissions. granted you could still be located by probes so it wouldnt be perfect.

Fon Win
Fangs Of The Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 00:13:00 - [153]
 

"local" should be handled by each system you jump into. It scans your ship, scans your identity and broadcasts it any communications you do to local.

A knowledgeable capsuleer should have been able to pick up in his traveling skill books from certain NPC corps in 0.0. These skills would be the ability a 20% per skill level ability to spoof the system into reporting bogus security rating of your character jumping into system(concord itself would not be spoofed as they have ships directly scanning your ship).

Another hacking skill should be to not only misrepresent your security rating.

A third skill which could spoof but your Identity all together. having the system randomnly represent you as a different character that was previously in system.

Advanced spoofing skills would give you a percentage chance (15% per level?) of not appearing on local at all.

Concord in an attempt to counter this would create skill books to datamine the code in system. Each skill giving a pilot 15%/level of counter any of the above. Multiple pilots in your fleet = increased chance of catching one hacker in system.


These could work throughout eve, with better results in null, and low sec.


an alternative which i may like even better is have an implant do each of the above, and a skill that effects the implant. thus more stuff to destroy ingame.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:01:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/08/2011 13:08:37
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/08/2011 13:06:07
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/08/2011 13:03:57
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

and the reason we're talking to players a lot is that we want to be sure you're all on board with what we're planning.
While a laudable goal, this requires that you actually give us some info to chew on. Currently there aren't much any info on how YOU would accomplish these goals mentioned in the devblog. Or at least how I see it. This is currently just sort of brainstorming and mainly on players part.

In regards of local and intel in general, I think removing local wouldn't be bad, and would actually be pretty interesting. This is because one still has to probe to find for example miners at a sov-induced gravimetric site. And probes are visible on directional. So removing local might actually improve the safety of pve actions in practise, because one would have to worry only when he sees probes on directional. The intel gathering would be more of 'active' sort and couldnt be performed by for example an alt docked inside hostile outpost. A docked person could yield no meaningful intel at all in that case.

Small gangs or large fleets could hide right next door or even in the same system since a prober can only cover so much ground, making engagements much more fun since you couldnt really judge opponents strength easily. This would propably slightly lower the large-scale combat because the FCs would want to have complete info before employing the supercaps. Instead of that info being freely and too easily available, such as: local, contact list that has enemy capital pilots on it, rats killed statistic in the starmap to find enemy PVE systems etc. I dont like this sort of "click and you get it" intel, I would rather want to see a covert ops pilot actually travelling to those systems and finding out himself.

I think that to balance the sudden lack of easy intel involved with removal of local there could be something added also, like ability to for a pilot to control probes across multiple solar systems simultaneously, without touching the total number of probes you can launch to ensure that you dont get TOO much information. This means that a single person could 'keep an eye' on alliances own systems for example (having 1-2 probes per system), but if he sees something he would have to investigate and move there so he could do a more accurate probing, leaving blind spots in the other systems.

Also I would like to have a special type of probe with the ability to determine with some accuracy the direction where a capital just jumped, so you could make a guess about their destination. I think this might have some interesting applications. Maybe make a capital's "jump wake" an item that could be probed.
Preferably grouped together by destination so that ships that jumped to same cyno would have the same wake. The more capitals jumped to same destination, the easier it would be to probe out.

Removing local would make the systems feel "larger", giving more immersion. I noticed that while in w-space and I liked it.


edit: I like the idea about inability to d-scan while cloaked a lot! It would propably remove the problem of "afk cloakers" completely.

Ned Black
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:21:00 - [155]
 

I would be fully satisfied if covert ops and black ops ships ships was set to delayed local since those are ment to be covert. I really dont care if the rest shows up or not.

The only thing I really ask is that you dont turn the current failsafe, omnipotent intel tool known as local into another tool that is just as failsafe and omnipotent as the current local. If you do that then you may as well just keep things the way they are.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:44:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Ned Black
I would be fully satisfied if covert ops and black ops ships ships was set to delayed local since those are ment to be covert. I really dont care if the rest shows up or not.

The only thing I really ask is that you dont turn the current failsafe, omnipotent intel tool known as local into another tool that is just as failsafe and omnipotent as the current local. If you do that then you may as well just keep things the way they are.

Put a delay on cyno deployment and this would work.

Genocide Machine
Posted - 2011.08.23 18:48:00 - [157]
 

Here is a decent roadmap that seems, at least to me, feasible. I have not ordered these because I think the short term ones are easiest, but because they have the biggest immediate impact that I feel most players want. The others can be built upon what we learn from the first few steps.

Shortterm(detailed):
Make 0.0 local like wormhole space
Make a sov structure that gives inhabitants some form of passive intelligence about their systems
Make scanner range and smallest angle determined by the ship, create modules that affect these attributes
Have non-cov cloaks half scan range when fit and further quarter when active; make cov cloaks quarter scan range when active

Midterm(less detailed):
Release a TII frig and TII/III cruiser/subsystem designed solely around scouting
Improve the passive intel system for sov holders within their own space
Put sov structure intel on the map

Longterm(concepts):
Create a role for one scout per squad, make the benefits of that role dependent on adequate fleet leadership
Make the intel that the scout receives/sees/uploads an input to the intel map panel:
Make an option on the map to open intel mode where it shows either the fleet intel or the corp intel.
Corp intel shows all your sov systems and their adjacent systems. It displays the information gathered from your passive intel structures.
Fleet intel shows the intel received by your scouts and how old it is.
Create a module that reports the intel you gather as a solo/fleet scout to the corp intel map

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:27:00 - [158]
 

There are many ships that are lacking in obvious ways. I'll use the Raptor as an example. Or destroyers. Giving them an advantage in future intel gathering ala longer dscanner distance or whatever you have in mind might go a ways in giving them some flavor.

Exie
The Suicide Express
Twilight Federation
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:56:00 - [159]
 

So, I have not read all of the post, just skimmed some. If this has been posted, see it as support of the idea.
It does require some changes to the way an Alliance is managed today. Most notably being able to delegate tasks/access from the Exec Corp off to another corp.

My idea around intel is a multi-facet approach. Each facet supports a differnt audience. So I am going to break down the idea but audience instead of mechanic.

High Level Alliance Leadership / PVP Organizers:
These folks care more about with the other guys are doing, not so much what is happening in their space. They want intel on their reds, blues, whomever.

Have a short range anchor-able structure that can feed data into the map. Allow the map to filter based on data received from modules. Modules track data based on their location, such as a "probe" anchored just off grid of a gate, would track jump in and out by Alliance/Corp, ship type, date, time. Modules anchored off a station would be simular, but with dock/undock. Off of a POS, would track POS Modules, Online/Offline Status, as well as ship info, warp in / warp out.

Counter: These modules could be scanned down and either destroyed or hacked. If hacked, they could be modified to give false intel Twisted Evil hack is temporary, and would have to be re-done if continued counter intel was wanting to be used. A chance to fail at hacking, sends a notification of failed hack attempt. Chance to hack improves with skill.

This intel would give these individuals the information, or mis-information to plan Alliance level ops, as well as watch for potential invasions. The more modules deployed, the better the intel. Planning is what most of this group would be responsible for.

This would be visible based on role with in the alliance, ie executor corp, or a corp assigned to be able to delegate this access.

Modules can be anchored via skills, and with out requirement for granted roles.


Roaming FC:
They want to know what is around them for the next 4-5 jumps, and whether it is blue, Red, or Nuet.

Have a module that is used on a scout frigate (new ship with bonuses?) that feeds intel into a user interface that modifies the F10 minimap. Again allow the FC to filter based on information the scouts use and find.
Scouts fly ahead, or behind looking for targets. Module "hacks" the stargates and provides intel based on what is on the other side of the stargate. Module can also be used to scan current system and identify ships in space in system as well as general location. (A red circle around the solar system map again based on f10 map) Can be used to more quickly track down potential targets, as well as identify if target is in a POS.

Makes Roaming FC job easier to identify a threat too large, or just right, as well as not waste time on a target that is already safe. Also make roaming more fun, as there is less wasted time looking for that Orca that is in a POS.

Counter: Kill the scout.Razz Use of defense intel system.

All skill based of course. Higher level various skills are the more detailed the intel can be, and the more accurate the location / status is.
Example
Starbase Hacking Prereq Hacking 4, Each Level adds additional information. Level 1 number of pilots on other side, to Level 5 Ship types, range from stargate, whatever.

Ratter, Miner, Defense FC
These folks are concerned with another task, however want to be aware of any potential incoming threats.

Similar to the Intel on reds, this would use a module, anchors ON GRID (within x range of item of interest ie stargate) to provide intel on the current state of that grid. I am still working thru how to provide level of detail based on skill. This would be more like a chat channel, with automated messages received from intel modules provided in near real-time.

Counter: Modules can be destroyed, notification sent when modules is destroyed. Also the module could be hacked, disabling the ablity to report for x time.
If the fleet is on grid, auto report

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.08.24 17:48:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Darth Helmat on 24/08/2011 17:51:42
Originally by: Lolion Reglo

That idea is all well and goo but i believe you should have the option of removing yourself from this scan. after all this will add to the ability to hide yourself from being found if you should so wish. To balance this the down side would be removal from all chat channels. after all if your going to run "dark" you cant put out any transmissions. granted you could still be located by probes so it wouldnt be perfect.


I like the idea that the more you shout, the more you become visible in the system - but not just limited to chat channels, but all actions, with some having a very low probability of making you show up (just warping at say 0.1%). Its one way to advantage smaller groups/solo players who are much less likely to give themselves away than some huge feckin armada.

Plenty of skills/modules/implants options to modify the risk, however anything that improves the odds for sovereignty holders only should come at a high (fuel) price, and be obvious to anyone in system that the intel dice are stacked.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.24 18:58:00 - [161]
 

Something like a "reports" tab in the scanner window is necessary, because the current ingame mechanics to collect, report, and share intel suck, especially for smaller groups that don't have dedicated programmers or access to things like a POS tracker. This could be integrated into the ingame map to provide a clear picture of what's going on in your space.

The reports tab could have designated corp or alliance members (preferably members of a chat channel, because as we all know regions are full of different corps and alliances friendly to eachother) be able to set semi-permanent reports for items that do not move around much (POS, sov structures, tactical bookmarks, and wormholes), which could possibly serve as bookmarks for fleet commanders. This would reduce tediousness in POS reconnaissance, and reduce the amount of situations where you have a gigantic fleet and nobody has bothered to remember where the next item that needs to be shot is.

Other corp or alliance members could be set to produce short-term reports that expire after a few hours. Priorities could be used to differentiate between low to medium priority reports ("There is a 20 man fleet here") to high priority reports ("My carrier is tackled in THE BELT"). Specific reports can have tags, which can be used to update specific reports if another player receives more up-to-date intel, along with a history window to see who reported it, and at what time. A dedicated member of the intel team can piece together tags to produce a nice long history, which would include system patterns and their ship types. This can provide an investment, time, and teamwork characteristic; If you and your corp/alliance/coalition put time and effort into reporting intel you will find it easier and easier to kill a specific target. This can work both ways, you can figure out how many people usually show up to defense fleets and their past compositions, and if you have dedicated scouts, their past movement patterns.

This tool could also be used by a player to report fleets, instead of typing out what's there into a chat channel, or creating a screenshot then uploading it to your favourite image host, you can simply click a report fleet button and the intel that you can currently see on grid, along with maybe a comment box will be reported. The tool could also be used offensively, to report expensive ships doing anomalies or ratting, or to report capital movement, or defense gangs looking for kills. This could provide a clearer picture of a hostile region for soloers, who don't necessarily work together all of the time.

You can also integrate anchorable objects that serve as intel beacons that automatically report things into this tab. Again this can work both ways. You can use the beacon to report hostiles coming into a region, or you can use it offensively and find people flying around solo, or use it to detect enemy fleets to go fight/avoid. You could also create something like a constellation intel jammer, which would prevent intel reports from getting out/being viewed within a group of systems to provide a target for defense gangs to hit, or to force a fleet commander to rely more on his scouts relaying intel to him rather than an intel screen.

hectiQ
Square Dimensions
Quantum Cookies
Posted - 2011.08.25 02:25:00 - [162]
 

It would indeed be interesting to see deployable intel gathering structures.

It should be possible to put a slave unit into each and every system an alliance owns.

Then there should be a master unit which collects the data from these slave units. To view the data that is collected, one must be in the same system as the master unit.

The delay of transmitting data back from the slave units to the master unit should be dependent on the amount of jumps the slave units are from the master unit.


For example:

Main outpost of operations contains a master unit. A lot of players are around and the master unit can be viewed quickly. Perhaps make it possible to link the master unit to a system outpost if it has one and add a new icon to the outpost services.

A slave unit is located 1 jump from the master unit, it takes 5 min for data to be transmitted back for viewing.
A slave unit which is located 5 jumps from the master unit would need 25 min to reach the master unit. (like 5 min per extra jump)

When a slave unit is nearby the master unit, the data collected should be very accurate to determine the ship types of an enemy fleet. (hac,t3,recon,battleship)
If the slave unit is further away, let it only show the size of the hull (frigate/cruiser/battleship)
One that is far away, 20 jumps, would only be able to show the fleet size or only small parts of it, a 50% accuracy.

Small agile fleets who only stay in a system for 1 min or less should be nearly undetectable.
The units could be upgraded to show more information, or to increase the transmitting time, or other fancy things.

This also ties in perfectly with removing local chat, if this is the new way of gathering intel.


This example is pure speculation and the numbers could and should be changed around in order for everything to be balanced.

Orin Leo
Posted - 2011.08.25 03:11:00 - [163]
 

I love Uhura Dennkhar's idea.

I would go even further to say that a new ship type could added that has the purpose of created a blind spot that cannot be scanned or at least not scanned by a fixed module. This would definitely add a new type of warfare, an awesome one.

Trader 99
Posted - 2011.08.25 07:23:00 - [164]
 

I think with the Directional scanner being able to know if was friend or foe would be useful, but the scan time would need to be alot faster then 2 minutes or its pointless.
The only concern i have with it is the people that do the bot programs,could write a script that enables them to warp away when a foe is detected.
I dont know if when a foe was detected if it was a verbal warning from Aura would make any difference.
It would be more fun if with the verbal warnings were lots of different ones maybe not even use Aura.
Use some famous lines from movies would be awesome.

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.08.25 10:15:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: hectiQ
It would indeed be interesting to see deployable intel gathering structures.

It should be possible to put a slave unit into each and every system an alliance owns.

Then there should be a master unit which collects the data from these slave units. To view the data that is collected, one must be in the same system as the master unit.

The delay of transmitting data back from the slave units to the master unit should be dependent on the amount of jumps the slave units are from the master unit.


For example:

Main outpost of operations contains a master unit. A lot of players are around and the master unit can be viewed quickly. Perhaps make it possible to link the master unit to a system outpost if it has one and add a new icon to the outpost services.

A slave unit is located 1 jump from the master unit, it takes 5 min for data to be transmitted back for viewing.
A slave unit which is located 5 jumps from the master unit would need 25 min to reach the master unit. (like 5 min per extra jump)

When a slave unit is nearby the master unit, the data collected should be very accurate to determine the ship types of an enemy fleet. (hac,t3,recon,battleship)
If the slave unit is further away, let it only show the size of the hull (frigate/cruiser/battleship)
One that is far away, 20 jumps, would only be able to show the fleet size or only small parts of it, a 50% accuracy.

Small agile fleets who only stay in a system for 1 min or less should be nearly undetectable.
The units could be upgraded to show more information, or to increase the transmitting time, or other fancy things.

This also ties in perfectly with removing local chat, if this is the new way of gathering intel.


This example is pure speculation and the numbers could and should be changed around in order for everything to be balanced.



Why does the sovereinty holder get intel, but visitors don't - talk about unbalanced - at least the current local is fair.

hectiQ
Square Dimensions
Quantum Cookies
Posted - 2011.08.25 12:39:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Darth Helmat
Originally by: hectiQ
...



Why does the sovereinty holder get intel, but visitors don't - talk about unbalanced - at least the current local is fair.


Indeed, didn't think of visitors or renters, it would only benefit the alliance who holds sovereignty.
The enemy doesn't know about the renters, the renters don't know about the enemy, only the alliance holder receives the intel, because it is their space.

Perhaps standings have an effect on letting others see the intel an alliance is gathering.

Schantalle
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:21:00 - [167]
 

Its soo sweet to read all those wormhole dwellers vote for local removal without understanding the real difference between w- and k-space that is called "hotdrop". Intel based on having an "ear" listening to the one or two w-holes entering your system might be absolutely fine when every attacker has to pass through them in force, it would be totally worthless in k-space where you always have to expect an attacking force in bridge- or jumprange behind each and every frigate.

Ive lived (and ratted) both in 0.0 and W-space and know what... w-space is simply safer and brings in more isk than nerfed-to-hell 0.0. Simply because a gang large and fast enough to safely kill a ratting ship in w-space needs to assemble at an incoming hole and is therefore always detectabe (read: ears @wh). Ratting in w-space easily provides enough isk to make cloaky eyes on every incoming hole worth it. In k-space you have 10 bombers and recons waiting far out @blackops bridges wherever you are ratting with no chance to ever get eyes on them and those can get called in by a ship that can detect and pinpoint you inside your anomaly within 20 seconds (one cycle on board scanner + ~3 taps d-scan) while still under jumpcloak, ready to immediatly warp in for the tackle. The only time it takes longer is when anomalies are too far away from the gate to d-scan them.

Ive done it often - if youre not able to pull it off, someone should train his skills instead of whining against instant local. Getting juicy ganks should require some skill - its easy enough as it is today.

Even delaying intel on jumping-in ships for as few as 30 seconds makes it close to impossible for a ratter to escape thanks to the recent boosts to scanning mechanics (dropping a single probe at least required the scout to drop jumpcloak).

@Greyscale
I really hope, you CCP guys spend some time watching real anti-ratting ops, roams and fleets very closely before you actually start tampering with current game mechanics. Maybe start with something undisputably useful like shareable bookmarks and bookmark-brackets ;)

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:00:00 - [168]
 

Personally, I like the idea of an Anchorable modules that generate a "local" for all friendly pilots. My idea on it though would be multifold, starting with High-sec.

First, Local would stay as is for High-sec. Consider the "distributed" intelligence as an aspect of Empire controlled space.

Second, I would set up a new skill based off of the Electronics Skillset: Distributed Networking. Essentially, this allows pilots to communicate what enemy/neutral ships that they can detect using their D-scanners, with each level of the skill would increase the speed of transmition of data. Those detected on D-scan will show up in their local as "unknowns", with no names. Names will then be attached if a pilot comes within the visual scan range of a friendly pilot or if they get searched out by combat probes. Low-sec and Null-sec pilots would benefit from this.

Third, Sov holding entities can put up "Ranged Scanner" module at a POS, which will transmit a local for every system that they sov holding entity owns in that constellation to all friendlies in that constellation, and it will be real-time.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:41:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
Personally, I like the idea of an Anchorable modules that generate a "local" for all friendly pilots. My idea on it though would be multifold, starting with High-sec.

First, Local would stay as is for High-sec. Consider the "distributed" intelligence as an aspect of Empire controlled space.

Second, I would set up a new skill based off of the Electronics Skillset: Distributed Networking. Essentially, this allows pilots to communicate what enemy/neutral ships that they can detect using their D-scanners, with each level of the skill would increase the speed of transmition of data. Those detected on D-scan will show up in their local as "unknowns", with no names. Names will then be attached if a pilot comes within the visual scan range of a friendly pilot or if they get searched out by combat probes. Low-sec and Null-sec pilots would benefit from this.

Third, Sov holding entities can put up "Ranged Scanner" module at a POS, which will transmit a local for every system that they sov holding entity owns in that constellation to all friendlies in that constellation, and it will be real-time.


For that third point, I would also like to add that an enemy fleet or hacker could come to the Scanner module and hack it in a mini-game. They can either put it off line for a couple hours, or have its telemetry broadcast to their fleet as well for an hour or so. A failed hack would set off an alarm to the alliance directors and XOs.

Wu Phat
Posted - 2011.08.25 21:24:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Wu Phat on 25/08/2011 21:31:52
Some how the map and constlation Maps from the F10 and F11 should be intergrated into windows. Jumping in and out map mode kinda slows down the processes.


Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.25 22:43:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Razin on 25/08/2011 22:43:53
Originally by: Orakkus

Third, Sov holding entities can put up "Ranged Scanner" module at a POS, which will transmit a local for every system that they sov holding entity owns in that constellation to all friendlies in that constellation, and it will be real-time.

You and the other posters proposing these deployable structures to give you local need to re-read Grayscale's 0.0 Intel design goals.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.26 03:11:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Schantalle
Its soo sweet to read all those wormhole dwellers vote for local removal without understanding the real difference between w- and k-space that is called "hotdrop". Intel based on having an "ear" listening to the one or two w-holes entering your system might be absolutely fine when every attacker has to pass through them in force, it would be totally worthless in k-space where you always have to expect an attacking force in bridge- or jumprange behind each and every frigate.

Ive lived (and ratted) both in 0.0 and W-space and know what... w-space is simply safer and brings in more isk than nerfed-to-hell 0.0. Simply because a gang large and fast enough to safely kill a ratting ship in w-space needs to assemble at an incoming hole and is therefore always detectabe (read: ears @wh). Ratting in w-space easily provides enough isk to make cloaky eyes on every incoming hole worth it. In k-space you have 10 bombers and recons waiting far out @blackops bridges wherever you are ratting with no chance to ever get eyes on them and those can get called in by a ship that can detect and pinpoint you inside your anomaly within 20 seconds (one cycle on board scanner + ~3 taps d-scan) while still under jumpcloak, ready to immediatly warp in for the tackle. The only time it takes longer is when anomalies are too far away from the gate to d-scan them.

Ive done it often - if youre not able to pull it off, someone should train his skills instead of whining against instant local. Getting juicy ganks should require some skill - its easy enough as it is today.

Even delaying intel on jumping-in ships for as few as 30 seconds makes it close to impossible for a ratter to escape thanks to the recent boosts to scanning mechanics (dropping a single probe at least required the scout to drop jumpcloak).

@Greyscale
I really hope, you CCP guys spend some time watching real anti-ratting ops, roams and fleets very closely before you actually start tampering with current game mechanics. Maybe start with something undisputably useful like shareable bookmarks and bookmark-brackets ;)


This is a very good point and "us WH dwellers" see that - but this is an IDEAS thread you have to consider. Greyscale is monitoring all the topics for null development and if you had read them then you would know that delayed cyno and changed cyno metrics are being heavily considered. So hot-drops the way you mention them would probably not be a factor. Just saying.

Vivien Sureflight
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.28 03:12:00 - [173]
 

Hey all,

I drafted an intel-related proposal that can be found here.

It deals with the removal of local and changes to the directional scanner. I'd like your input.

Thanks,
-Viv

Solj RichPopolous
Amarr
Templars of Space
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:35:00 - [174]
 

An idea i came up with for the revamp of the D-Scan and turn it in to a real operational radar system.

Idea: Local becomes delayed like wormholes.

D-Scan is revamped to operate like a real radar system, has greater range (25 or 35 au??) or could stay the same with skills to increase it maybe through some sort of scouting type skillset and auto-scans every 3 seconds.
D-Scan also gets the option to scan by either AUs or KMs. No more having to do quick math and type 1,350,000,000 KM in to scan a 9 AU circle for example.
D-Scan no longer uses overview settings and has its own customizable filters and tabs.


Some kind of IDing system is created to determine friendlies.
- Corporations, alliances, and players with good standings appear with either a + (under a standings column) or the scan signature is highlighted in some color such as blue or both. Maybe also an option to broadcast player name to friendlies?

- Some kind of new rig, module, or skills are created that will allow D-Scan to detect a cloaked ship but can not determine standings or ship type. Maybe an option is given that allows a cloaked ship to broadcast itself to people with good standing using the method above to determine what ships are friendly?

It will be harder for D-Scan to detect a cloaked ship (3 AU?) making them very viable for scouting without being detected by non-cloaked ships since they can scan max range while staying out of detection radius. In example a cloaked ship wants to keep tabs on a station in a system so he cloaks 5 au off of it to avoid being detected by hostiles while being able to do intel gathering without alerting anyone. Possible introduction of skills for ships to increase their cloaked ship D-scan detection range.

- Possible introduction of a new probe which sole purpose is to be able to determine if there are cloaked ships in its range but CAN NOT probe the ships down. Unsure of a range for the probe but should be VERY limited maybe 3-4 AU with there being a skill to launch 1 probe per level with a max out of 5.

A good use for which would be to form a safety net around groups running anomalies, plexes, or mining. Would require operator to be attentive and constantly rescanning. Results would not appear in D-scan and would take the same amount of time to scan as normal probe operation.

This would remove local and make D-Scan very useful for gathering intel but would require work to gain said intel and someone wouldn't be able to jump into a system and automatically know who all is there.

Critiques and comments?

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:55:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Solj RichPopolous

Some kind of IDing system is created to determine friendlies.



Not that bit - Radars don't know the difference between friendly blobs of metal, and unfriendly ones.

In answer to you and the poster above (whose image is missing - might want to fix that), I do think that a revamped d-scanner is a part of the answer though.

- I'd drop angle; keep it simple. angle and refresh speed amount to the same thing, the faster the sweep the larger its angle (in resolution terms). So I'd keep the trade off as simple as refresh speed/accuracy.

- agree with the comment in the other thread about large ships should be at least as capable. scan resolution shouldn't be in the formula.

- d-scan results should never be warpable to (obviously).

- you should never detect a cloaked ship, but a cloaked ship should decloak if it attempts to use the d-scanner. That way a cloaky has zero intel, which is the perfect balance to his invisibility.

- the other poster mentioned distinguishing between active and inactive ships - not sure what counts as active (moving, has a pilot?).



Solj RichPopolous
Amarr
Templars of Space
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2011.08.29 07:37:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 29/08/2011 07:39:14

Originally by: Darth Helmat
Originally by: Solj RichPopolous

Some kind of IDing system is created to determine friendlies.



Not that bit - Radars don't know the difference between friendly blobs of metal, and unfriendly ones.

In answer to you and the poster above (whose image is missing - might want to fix that), I do think that a revamped d-scanner is a part of the answer though.

- I'd drop angle; keep it simple. angle and refresh speed amount to the same thing, the faster the sweep the larger its angle (in resolution terms). So I'd keep the trade off as simple as refresh speed/accuracy.

- agree with the comment in the other thread about large ships should be at least as capable. scan resolution shouldn't be in the formula.

- d-scan results should never be warpable to (obviously).

- you should never detect a cloaked ship, but a cloaked ship should decloak if it attempts to use the d-scanner. That way a cloaky has zero intel, which is the perfect balance to his invisibility.

- the other poster mentioned distinguishing between active and inactive ships - not sure what counts as active (moving, has a pilot?).





Love the idea of cloakers having to decloak for a scan. With the IDing thing though i was going for some futuristic radar type deal that would work like radar in most space sims. Something comparable to Automatic Identification System which is already in use by naval vessels today. Some quick quotes from wiki.


"The Automatic Identification System (AIS) is an automated tracking system used on ships and by Vessel Traffic Services (VTS) for identifying and locating vessels by electronically exchanging data with other nearby ships and VTS stations."

"Information provided by AIS equipment, such as unique identification, position, course, and speed, can be displayed on a screen..."

Black Romero
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:25:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Jaigar
First off I will say that I'm a wormhole dweller with a little bit of null sec experience. I also mash d-scan (prolly 100-200 times an hour when active) even when pos spinng out of habbit.

First off, I will say that Delayed local isnt the way to go. Like those before have stated, WH space is different from null, and we need to remember that. The general feeling I'm getting from this thread wants simular goals to what CCP is pushing; we just need a good method.

I'm thinking of a new UI interface, simular to the sovereignity window, but streamlined enough to keep open. This interface would be the Intelligence window, and you can set options to share certain types of information.

Information gathering would occur with different levels of commitment. Those who own the space would get some slight advantage to defensive intel gathering, but not to the point of instant-local like now. Those who are roaming through should be able to collect enough intel to know if anyone has been in the area, just not who or exactly where (think gate jumps). Everyone would have access to these gate jump numbers, but they are delayed 15 minutes, and they still don't tell you if someone is in system.

One consequence of this is more frigate roaming parties; They can cover more systems faster and find people easier. Since flying a frigate is not skill intensive, its in no way prohibitive.



I agree whole heartedly with all the above. Delayed local is not the answer. I would go so far as to say though that SOV holders could declare a SOV Capital system where they could have instant local back through some sort of Outpost mechanic or something. (I also agree with other posters that Cap ship construction should be limited to systems like this).

Continued below...

Originally by: Jaigar

Bear with me now, those I stated above those who own sovereignity in the system, they would get a tick every 5,10,arbitrary number to show how many pilots (and names) are in that system. Now, with this new Intelligence window, you can set standings to automaticly share this intel. So if I'm set blue to the alliance who owns the system I'm ratting in, they can give me the intel their system gathers automaticly. This could also be manipulated via roles, etc.

Now the idea I'm most proud of is a new battlefield idea: The Communications Hub. What the communications hub would do is allow 1 player every (arbitrary) minutes to hack the CONCORD communication system and give the same level intel as the sovereignity-owned people get but constellation wide. So there becomes a new strategic point in system control and that is these hubs. And just like stated above, this information is automaticly shared with anyone the hacker chooses.

So this would give mobility a higher priority; crusier fleet and battlecrusier fleets gain additional viablity by being harder to track than the typical battleship roam. Advance scouting parties (IE interceptors) become even more important; You could fit a couple frigates and do a quick recon of the entire constellation by hauling ass to these hubs.

This is just a rough sketch though. Might through Cyno information in there somewhere, you never know.


The rest of this I am not so sure of. Not bad brainstorming - just think it has holes in it or should just be part of the map in general?

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:27:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Merkurielle
Though much of this already takes place in the metagame, I'd like to see more gameplay that supports counterintelligence activity.


I didn't follow the link -

But counterintelligence would be cool. Maybe we could "Fix" the intel ideas with more of that approach. IE. Adding in counterintelligence. I could see Electronic Attack frigates maybe being used for this or Black ops.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:30:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 29/08/2011 11:38:26
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What other in-game channel is there for immediate communication with the people in your LOCAL area that you don't have a prior relationship with?

There isn't one.

Therefore the local channel is necessary.
It doesn't need to tell you everyone who's there, but the relays are programmed such that that is how it behaves. Take it up with Ma Bell if you don't like it.



Constellation. :) It might actually get used. haha

Originally by: Fon Win
"local" should be handled by each system you jump into. It scans your ship, scans your identity and broadcasts it any communications you do to local.

A knowledgeable capsuleer should have been able to pick up in his traveling skill books from certain NPC corps in 0.0. These skills would be the ability a 20% per skill level ability to spoof the system into reporting bogus security rating of your character jumping into system(concord itself would not be spoofed as they have ships directly scanning your ship).

Another hacking skill should be to not only misrepresent your security rating.

A third skill which could spoof but your Identity all together. having the system randomnly represent you as a different character that was previously in system.

Advanced spoofing skills would give you a percentage chance (15% per level?) of not appearing on local at all.

Concord in an attempt to counter this would create skill books to datamine the code in system. Each skill giving a pilot 15%/level of counter any of the above. Multiple pilots in your fleet = increased chance of catching one hacker in system.


These could work throughout eve, with better results in null, and low sec.


an alternative which i may like even better is have an implant do each of the above, and a skill that effects the implant. thus more stuff to destroy ingame.


While good in theory (might get people to actualyl use their Charisma points for more skills too) this probably won't work.

I could see countering this with your buddy list (watch list) for online members or blues.

Meditril
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:42:00 - [180]
 

Some random ideas:

  • Invent active and passive scanning for both: D-Scan and Probing. Passive scanning has shorter range and returns only hull size (frig/cruiser/BS/...) and takes longer especially for Probing as benefit passive scanning is not detectable at all. Active scanning gives you detailed information but should be automatically detected by ships in range.

  • Signature should determine how far you can detect an enemy ship. Small signature = less risk of detection at range.



This will give more tactical choices for scanning. And BTW set local to delayed mode fow low-sec and 0.0.


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