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James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:40:00 - [91]
 

It's also worth pointing out that the type of automated intel I describe really is a very good counter to the "problem" of AFK cloaking.

It doesn't neuter AFK cloaking since until they make a move you can't know if they're active at any given time or not. It doesn't boost it unfairly either (those ships, if AFK, aren't sending intel either). But: if they attack, then it's going to be auto-squawked, and if they change systems for example then bouncing past friendlies will start to track their movements.

So the concept "be a persistent unknown" still works, but they're much easier to check for activity.

One final note would be that obviously "push button" should ideally be some type of CAPTCHA to minimize bot / macro-ability.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:05:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Reward time, localism, thought, investment, teamwork
Time - gathering intelligence should not be quick. People who take the time to really do their homework should be rewarded.
Localism - there should be a clear advantage to specializing in a particular area, allowing players to build up local knowledge and use it against their enemies.
Thought - intel-gathering should not be a rote activity, it should require people to make plans and then adjust them as they go.
Investment - those who are willing to make investments in intel-gathering, either in static or mobile tools, should be rewarded, as this further encourages specialization.
Teamwork - working together should be more efficient than working separately, because getting people to interact always brings value of one sort or another.
Pervasive concern
Intel should not be a thing that you think about occasionally, or that can be worked on a bit and then checked off on a list as "done". Decision-makers should always be thinking about their intel and how up-to-date it is. This ensures that intel-gathering is a useful specialization, and further implies that there are lots of decisions that other players could be making that will disrupt your plans. A game that requires constantly updating intelligence for optimal gameplay is a game where there's a lot going on and a lot of interesting decisions to be made.
Strong tools for collecting and sharing
To support the other goals here, tools should be available for collecting and sharing intel that minimize the amount of rote work, particularly documentation, that players need to engage in. This frees up their attention for collaboration, analysis and decision-making.
Moving target
...
Intelligence-gathering should not be a purely passive occupation. There should be plenty of opportunities for gatherers to take a more active stance, either to take shortcuts in gathering the intel, or to act on it right away and sabotage or otherwise mess with the enemy's stuff. There should though always be the risk of getting caught, and having your patrol cut short on top of the usual drawbacks of eg getting shot. This serves to make intel-gathering a little more interesting and engaging.



Greyscale I wanted to post here as well on my thoughts for intel changes. I have obviously posted some of it in other threads where it too is relevant. Here is the whole thing where it belongs best.

TIME - Change local in 0.0 - Make it gone by default (except maybe in NPC space) BUT make it possible to bring back to Alliances that do the work to gain SOV high enough. Then when SOV is high enough you ANCHOR "BEACON/TRANSMITTER/SCANNERS" around your solar system to establish local for your people but still not for anyone that ventures in. This way you have a way to fight AFK Cloakers. Take away there ability to D-SCAN while cloaked maybe to complete the package?? Basically you make it to where they are GOING TO HAVE TO DROP PROBES to find you. This way you can see them but they don't know if you are there and setting up a trap or running stealthy. Then watch industry, site running, exploration, PI etc thrive with less blanket disruption because of 1 guy.

Also - your above direction emphasizes knowing your area. Make placing beacons something that requires knowing the land and skill. LOCALISM CONT - Maybe add to this where someone can hide maybe in the gravity well of a moon or planet?! This way it is akin to hiding behind a rock like in FPS games. Placind beacon/scanners becomes very important but again susceptable to attack - like watch towers. This meets your TIME requirement and ACTIVE COMPONENTS and LOCALISM. Make the "Beacons" attackable by small groups and the grid goes down you have insta conflict. Maybe you have to post a guard at the lookout tower in other words! :)

Hope this makes sense. Please everyone give me your feedback and I will be happy to address.

Cheers!

Akihoshi
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:32:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Akihoshi on 18/08/2011 06:21:57
Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 15/08/2011 11:20:23
I like the idea of intel gathering being a little more of an active thing you can do. Like launching a probe in a system for an hour or two and will eve mail you how many people jump in at a level 1 skill..at level v that probe should eve mail you a report of who jumped where and how. I think that this probe should be scannable, and the higher the pilots skill in a new skill called Intel Gathering or something similar. Or alternatively a scanning module that can only be used on a covert ops frigate (not the sb, but the scanning one for those who don't know the difference.) giving that class of skill a little more purpose than a scanner prober.


I really like this idea to a point let me expand on it.

Currently Nullsec already has a perfect platform for which to add intel gathering to. The territorial claim unit would make the perfect platform for Intelegence Gathering and would make sense from a logical standpoint. As one increases the infrastructure and thus more control over the system more intel should be gathered. This keeps in line with development of the system as one invests in the infrastructure of the system and anyone who invests in something would want to keep tabs on it.

In order to facilitate this a new Role in the coropration would need to be created, The coropration Intelegence officer which would recieve reports in the form of eve mails from the TCU about activity in the system. To keep from lagging the system and to keep the sanity or insanity ( which ever you prefer to call it of the intel officer ) several settings or filters would need to be applied to the intel portion of the TCU.

an Example of such filters for when people jump into the system

  1. Notify of persons with Negative standings to corp/alliance.

  2. Notify of persons with nuetral standings to corp/alliance.

  3. Notify of large fleet jumping into system.

  4. Notify of person wtih positive standings to Corp/alliance.



Filters for ship kills/desctruction. ( More granular control might need to be added to theese for large fleet fights)

  1. Notify of friendly ship destruction in system.

    1. Notify only if by non npc ships.

    2. Notify of all.


  2. notify of neutral ship destruction in system.

    1. Notify only if by non npc ships.

    2. Notify of all.


  3. notify of hostile ship destruction in system.

    1. Notify only if by non npc ships.

    2. Notify of all.


  4. Notify of NPC ship kills in system.

    1. Notify if by pilots of negative standings to corp/alliance.

    2. Notify if by pilots of neutral standings to corp/alliance.

    3. Notify if by pilots of positive standings to corp/alliance.



Filters for General intell

  1. Notify of anaomolous items in space ( IE probes )


and I am sure more filters could be applied to the system to help manage the flow of intel.

To keep with the growth aspect and to encourage growth of the system infrasctucture not all options would be avialable at once. for starting filters such as for hostiles would be available once the TCU went online thus giving an intel advantage to those that are investing in the system. Then after so much development is done to the system or after so many upgrades are applied to it the filters for neutrals become avilable and finally all fitlers available when the system is fully upgraded.

Mitsuko Hoth
Caldari
KikaKikai Gmbh.
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:32:00 - [94]
 

Reading on this topic got me thinking about Intel gathering in a (probably) new way. This is an addition to things already said. I concerns also other topics like having an advantage when being "home". It would also establish intel gathering as a mini profession and present opportunities for trade. It would add a new dimension to battles, both to tactic and strategic planning.

1. let us suppose space is full of anomalies like energy fields, dust clouds etc. They need not be visual. These would affect ships in various ways (shield, cap recharge, tracking etc) This would put a sort of terrain in the game. Now it would matter where the games are fought. These effects SHOULD be random and changing with time

2. An Intel gatherer with properly equipped ship would fly to certain area and scan it, this would generate a report (an item similar to bookmark or blueprint). The report could be copied and would disintegrate or simply expire after certain amount of time (the report would compensate for the changes of the effects, ie it should not matter that the effects are changing, while the report is vallid you would have the benefits and could see the details of anomalies at the area).

3. Now for the point: If you have this report in your cargo hold your ship would not (or be little) affected by this anomalies as with fore-knowledge the crew could prepare and compensate

4. On system map affected regions could be shown by having a report in cargo hold. ALL space in nullsec should be affected in some way. One could say that high and low sec are so well documented and info is broadcasted on public channels that this is not an issue.

Various scenarios that result form such feature:
a) If you call an area home, you have detailed info about anomalies and have an advantage over possible invaders
(a report could also be generated by just spending time in a system???)
b) If you want to invade, you must send spies, buy information from travelers or professional intel gatherers, or compensate with additional force
c) You want to lure the enemy into an area he does not know or has an anomaly that does not affect your force
d) More variety to the battle compositions: you must prepare for the particular battleground, include only armor tanking ships for example. It would also make it possible to make a larger number of different ship designs find their place in battles.
e) one could make a living by traveling null sec and selling info reports

Other information mentioned in the post could be added directly to the report like no of players , jumps etc

Instead of a report the item could be a remote link to a probe left at the site feeding info to a hand held device
(same thing , different visual/fluff representation)

Sorry if this has already been proposed.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:54:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Janos Saal on 18/08/2011 07:55:50
Originally by: Akihoshi

TCU ****

Intel gathering should always be done by people in the field. That could be by launching spy probes, or even just with eyes, but it should require an active presence.
If you reduce it to a function carried out by a piece of space furniture tht everybody owns then everybody will have the same access to intel. It shouldn't work like that. The rewards of intelligence should go to those dedicated enough to collect it, and it shouldn't be restricted by the sov system in any way.
I think CCP is already on this wavelength, so I'm not too worried about them implementing ideas like yours, but I wanted to point this out.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:15:00 - [96]
 

While nice in theory, you quickly make it tedious and boring that way, while it is supposed to be a game.


If we shouldnt be talking about local and possible replacements here I indeed really would like a CCP'er to explain again what we should be talking about.

Quote:
Yeah, you've fundamentally missed the point here. Those four players were not PVEing - their objective was not to get ISK, but to PVP and to defend their space.

And you are fundamentally missing the point that it is nice they were pvp'ing, but people still need to pve for their income. And of course some people have a small army of alts for that, which often will be in complete safety in high sec, but some still do it where they live. Add that in the vast majority of 0.0 space you make only a fraction of what you make in WH space, so you need to spend ALOT more time pve'ing to make the same amount in 0.0 as in WH space. Not to mention in 0.0 it is trivial to see where the pve'ers are and how you got to travel to them to kill them.

Then as mentioned before, in every little bit populated 0.0 those 3 friends wouldnt have stood out in any way between the others in local, so removal of local wouldnt change such traps significantly. And the only way you can do such a trap is if you know there is an enemy looking for you, at least I assume they dont wait 5 hours a day in a gas cloud hoping someone shows up, so removal of local will then only hinder the trap.


All together I am still in favour of removing local and replacing it with a less capable intel tool (at least system wide, close range it could actually be more capable), preferably based on active/passive mode something, however what would need to be done then:
It must be automated, no dir scanner crap (at least the passive scan)
All PVE sites would need to do close to omni damage
All NPCs on those sites should switch targets (oh and drones should be left alone mostly probably)
Cynos should get a spool up time, how long depending on cyno type and ship lighting the cyno, but not the current instantanious transportion across an entire region that you cannot realistically scout for with ingame means.
0.0 income needs to be boosted, sure they can keep the truesec disparity in income, but the income now in the bad truesec is just sad.


And while not really related to removal of local, I do also think with enough time and skill invested cloaked ships should be findable (at least non-cov ops). See it as a submarine, they are very hard to spot and good for surprise attacks, but if you search hard enough you will find them eventually.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.18 10:25:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 17/08/2011 15:20:44
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile

Notsureifserious.jpg

How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? I mean, what is the purpose of all these deployable intel collecting structures if we have instant local? To make it even more OP?

Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before?


This will all likely come after we deal with local, because that's a more pressing issue - it's just not covered explicitly here because it's too much of a "general mechanics" issue to be included in nullsec-specific planning.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:13:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

This will all likely come after we deal with local, because that's a more pressing issue - it's just not covered explicitly here because it's too much of a "general mechanics" issue to be included in nullsec-specific planning.


Well, the problem is that since local is such a powerful and easy intel source, it's very hard to for us to discuss future intel gathering without a) including local in the discussion or b) knowing what you're planning to do with it.

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:39:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

This will all likely come after we deal with local, because that's a more pressing issue - it's just not covered explicitly here because it's too much of a "general mechanics" issue to be included in nullsec-specific planning.


Well, the problem is that since local is such a powerful and easy intel source, it's very hard to for us to discuss future intel gathering without a) including local in the discussion or b) knowing what you're planning to do with it.


This. You can't discuss a future intel gathering system without keeping the current one in mind. No matter what happens to Local, the future intel system will be compared to the current Local, and if you make it too difficult to gather proper intel, even more people will leave 0.0 for any ISK making activities, because even as it stands, it's painfully hard to make decent net ISK in 0.0.

Also, I don't know of anyone that has an issue with Local in highsec or even lowsec. Even NPC 0.0 Local seems to be ok in. The main place I see people saying it's an issue is Sov 0.0. I'm hoping you're not planning on killing Local globally just to deal with Local in Sov 0.0, we don't need drastic nerfs, K.I.S.S. and don't screw up too much stuff at once.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:45:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Razin on 18/08/2011 15:17:47
In addition (to Gypsio III's post above), most of your 0.0 Intel design goals are either meaningless or just don't work very well to provide the depth and complexity you seem to be looking for when instant local is there to be the 'god mode' intel tool.

(Edited for clarity)

Bob Niac
Gallente
freelancers inc
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:58:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Bob Niac on 18/08/2011 13:59:15
Edit: oops skip this I guess.

So about the remove local argument.

We are starting to think about Incarna and about going "off the grid" for some shady dealings or w/e.

Why not have a system where a module will interrupt ALL transmissions (channels go blank basically.) The trade off is the module also removes you from local. You can't give intel ingame unless you disable the module

Module is passive and uses a high slot. Thus can only be deactivated by offline-ing it.
Possible "stealth" element. Reduces sig radius a small amount.
Tailored towards Black Ops battleships? (cloaky bonus changes to "stealth" bonus."

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:24:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Bob Niac
Why not have a system where a module will interrupt ALL transmissions (channels go blank basically.) The trade off is the module also removes you from local. You can't give intel ingame unless you disable the module


So, now instead of cloaking AFK, they'll be cloaking and nuking Local AFK? I'll pass on that.

For any system that's designed, we HAVE to bear in mind how people will use it for greifing others, because it will happen.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:48:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 18/08/2011 16:55:20
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

This will all likely come after we deal with local, because that's a more pressing issue - it's just not covered explicitly here because it's too much of a "general mechanics" issue to be included in nullsec-specific planning.


Well, the problem is that since local is such a powerful and easy intel source, it's very hard to for us to discuss future intel gathering without a) including local in the discussion or b) knowing what you're planning to do with it.
This. They go hand in hand Greyscale.

Will the new intel system, replace the greater part of the old intel system, 'local'?

Genocide Machine
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:43:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Genocide Machine on 18/08/2011 15:46:02
This section has of course degraded into a giant get rid of local debate, which I completely agree with, as a wormhole pvp'r I see nullsec as dumbed down pvp battle ground for solo/small gangs. If you want the best scouts in the game, find wormhole pvpers, because they never assume anything.

However, imho if local were to go away there would need to be a major upgrade change to the scanning system. The fact that every ship has the same scan range and capabilities is silly. Make things like scan range, amount of time to return scan data and other things variable ship to ship and able to be modified by modules.

my two cents:
A major modification to scanners
0.0 local like wormhole local
Sov able to upgrade systems to have better passive intel

edit: oh and for heaven's sake make bookmarks shareable... seriously in the far future we have to write things down on paper and hand them to each others like sticky notes were just invented a few years ago.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:49:00 - [105]
 

I made a separate thread, but should have put this idea here...

Create an option to disable your "local" transponder, both to send and receive signals. Basically, if you turn it off Local doesn't work for you. You can't see anyone in local and, just as importantly, they can't see you.

So, you have it off and jump into a system. You have no idea who's in there and they have no idea anyone arrived. Now, someone (or you) hitting DScan or launching probes will gather intel same as always, but now you have to earn it. Intel becomes an active task for both you and those looking for you.

I'd add one more caveat... with the transponder off you cannot provide anyone a "warp to" signal, so fleets can't jump to you while using this feature. Include an activation/deactivation timer to prevent "instas" and you're good to go.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.18 17:40:00 - [106]
 

I guess maybe we're just coming at this from very different angles. From my point of view, local and the whole "who's in this system with me right now" thing are a pretty small part of the overall picture as it pertains to "Intel". Some of it - like mapping activity trends - relies on some way to see who's in the system but doesn't care overly what it is, while other bits - like scouting starbases - are almost completely unrelated. On top of the actual act of collection, there's also the question of what happens to the data once they've been collected: how they're presented and in what format, how they can be processed, the tools available for sharing them and so on. Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements particularly to non-specialist pilots, they're still a fairly small piece of the puzzle in absolute terms, and so long as whatever system is doing that job "works", it doesn't matter all that much what it is as far as the rest of the puzzle is concerned. That's why I'm not spending a lot of time answering posts about local right now.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:51:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
I guess maybe we're just coming at this from very different angles. From my point of view, local and the whole "who's in this system with me right now" thing are a pretty small part of the overall picture as it pertains to "Intel". Some of it - like mapping activity trends - relies on some way to see who's in the system but doesn't care overly what it is, while other bits - like scouting starbases - are almost completely unrelated. On top of the actual act of collection, there's also the question of what happens to the data once they've been collected: how they're presented and in what format, how they can be processed, the tools available for sharing them and so on. Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements particularly to non-specialist pilots, they're still a fairly small piece of the puzzle in absolute terms, and so long as whatever system is doing that job "works", it doesn't matter all that much what it is as far as the rest of the puzzle is concerned. That's why I'm not spending a lot of time answering posts about local right now.


Are you asking for feedback on and proposing something akin to a real world intelligence gathering and analysis system that would feed information to the leaders and decision makers? More strategic and less tactical? Something that would look at the star map showing fleet movements and show indicators of enemy activity?

Let's split the conversation in two then: strategic and tactical.

P.S. for tactical start with removing local and replacing with passive and active directional scanning tools. Maybe local becomes grid level so you can smack talk your opponents.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:13:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 18/08/2011 18:16:45
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
I guess maybe we're just coming at this from very different angles. From my point of view, local and the whole "who's in this system with me right now" thing are a pretty small part of the overall picture as it pertains to "Intel".
But that's just it: it's not only about "who's in here with me?", but about "who's in our sovereign systems, all over the map?". Corp, alliance, and intel channels make sure that any such observation immediately becomes part of the overall picture: why on earth has alliance X moved 40 ships through system A, B, and C in the last hour? Are they scouting? Are they preparing a multi-hop cyno with backups? Etc.

Yes, it helps on the local situational awareness (as one might expect considering the name of the channel), but it also feeds directly into the larger situational picture of what is happening across multiple systems and regions.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:40:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Razin on 18/08/2011 19:16:48
Quote:
Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements

They're not just important and most visible; to most players they are (among) The Most Important elements because they are Gameplay. An in-game (because player created tools exist in abundance outside the game) dedicated intel processing and sharing system would be very nice, but it is the collection of intel that is the part that is currently lacking due to simplistic and omnipotent local.

And it's not just the intel gathering game that is hampered; instant local severely limits tactics for both large and small gangs, so switching it to delayed mode (with associated dscan changes) would go a long way towards meeting many of your other design goals.

Whatís very important here is to build on solid foundation so that later the whole system does not need to be brought down to finally make that one fix thatís been in the plans for years. The foundation is the basic tools you give players to collect intel (because collection is gameplay, not the spreadsheets to keep the data). Local is such a tool, and one that makes the job of gathering intel trivial, as well as making any kind of possible game additions/improvements on this subject worthless. This is the problem that needs to be the focus of this effort.

Biddybam
Valor Inc.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:44:00 - [110]
 

Black ops, Black ops, Black ops.

I feel like I have made a valid point.

Icycle
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:40:00 - [111]
 

I myself dont see much issue with intel atm with the current system. I firmly belive like some said. I should not have to wait for a time stamp to tell me that there is a 500 enemy fleet outside the station. After all, station have windows! Well said.

If you want "more active intelligence gathering" then pilots should not be able to do the so called afk cloak forever without any reprisals. One should not be able to be safe anywhere unless he docks in a station or logs off. Put a time delay or a fuel on the cloak.
This actually encourages active intel gathering and not afk.




Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:22:00 - [112]
 

By removing the DScan capability to scan local for ship types, you actually increase the time it takes to gather the intel by the enemy.

e.g. if you are at a pos you can scan local to know they fleet composition.
The way around is to be at the gate when they jump in and see when they decloak. This would make the intel harder to gather as people would jump from the gate instantly and therefore it would be hard to access the fleet composition. Alhought you will know the size of the fleet from local.

This actually encourages work on both sides to find out what the fleet composition of each. And if you add the time delay to the cloak so that the scouts cant perma cloak aka "afk cloak" then, eve will be a better game.

I personally think the idea of hitting the scan too much although its just creating unecesary traffic. Also it helps with "certain organizations" that try and crash the node by spaming during large fleet attacks.

Akihoshi
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:28:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
Edited by: Janos Saal on 18/08/2011 07:55:50
Originally by: Akihoshi

TCU ****

Intel gathering should always be done by people in the field. That could be by launching spy probes, or even just with eyes, but it should require an active presence.
If you reduce it to a function carried out by a piece of space furniture tht everybody owns then everybody will have the same access to intel. It shouldn't work like that. The rewards of intelligence should go to those dedicated enough to collect it, and it shouldn't be restricted by the sov system in any way.
I think CCP is already on this wavelength, so I'm not too worried about them implementing ideas like yours, but I wanted to point this out.


Not all intel is gathered in the field by people.lets see the other forms of itel gathering that are in use today
1. Cameras
2. Drones
3. Satalites
4. looking out the window


This was not a fleshed out idea, it would still require more work and was meant to supplement intel. As any battlefield commander will know that up to the minute intel is the best but only if it is free of personal coloring.

Bob Niac
Gallente
freelancers inc
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.19 04:37:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Bob Niac on 19/08/2011 04:39:55
How about a wiki style map that is designed to be edited in EVEgate, and can be viewed as another UI element in the neocom. The map has levels of access, and would eventually be available via the API. Areas of conflict are colored by alliance FCs, for example. ("This system/constellation is part of our campaign")

A good idea for this would be low level access to make comments about reds in the area ("12 man gang sighted" - time stamp -- system.)

And because this is EVEgate, it should be accessible in game. Bookmarks uploaded to the map could be posted on a corp or alliance level, and set so that it shows up as a normal bookmark to those who have access.
Right click > bookmark as > self / corp / alliance.

Side effect is that the logistical nightmare of finding that new JB POS is only a director's edit away.

Interestingly, this (with an upgrade to the calender) could used as an in game to notify of the need for a dedicated node. By a simple addition of meta-tag recognition to the EVEgate calender:

"#CTA in @Jita starting at $0100. We are using !Hellkats for the main fleet. Support will be #HICs, #Logi, and #SBs"

This would register as a trigger that would notify the Ops team that something is about to happen in Jita and the alliance that is calling the CTA. They then pull the campaign data from that alliance's map and see if the data is valid, and if a generic area was given, what systems should be given priority.

We see in the calender "CTA in Jita at 01:00 Hellcats will be the main fleet. Support will be Heavy Interdictors, Logistics, and Smart Bombers.

# ... notation hashtag, stored as a corp or ally "mini"bulletin, comes up as a showinfo window with relevant organization's logo
@ ... location and/or shoinfo hashtag
$ ... time / date tag
! ... link to fit

this gives the fleet all the info they need to be ready. Hashtags in GateMAP work similarly, allowing for intel to be linked and stored, so logging into a fleet of hostiles woould be easier to aviod with some diligence.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.19 05:45:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
I guess maybe we're just coming at this from very different angles. From my point of view, local and the whole "who's in this system with me right now" thing are a pretty small part of the overall picture as it pertains to "Intel". Some of it - like mapping activity trends - relies on some way to see who's in the system but doesn't care overly what it is, while other bits - like scouting starbases - are almost completely unrelated. On top of the actual act of collection, there's also the question of what happens to the data once they've been collected: how they're presented and in what format, how they can be processed, the tools available for sharing them and so on. Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements particularly to non-specialist pilots, they're still a fairly small piece of the puzzle in absolute terms, and so long as whatever system is doing that job "works", it doesn't matter all that much what it is as far as the rest of the puzzle is concerned. That's why I'm not spending a lot of time answering posts about local right now.


Okay Greyscale I get where you are going with this...but I still think the devil is in the details as others have also pointed out. You want more strategic talk instead of tactical though I gather...

With that said - Are you thinking like an ADVANCED version of the star map that makes head's of alliances/corps more like generals moving their tank pieces around on a map of Europe? Doing so sends orders down to the star ships in fleets without having to be on voice coms. That sort of thing? Intel gathering and dissemination tools in other words? If so - maybe some sort of EVE window that lets you click on things and say, Stargate to PF-346 Clear- send. And it sends it to the commanders and flashes on their screen or to the fleet so that they move in?

Either way I liked this post a lot for looking at INTEL in a new light:

Originally by: Andrea Roche

By removing the DScan capability to scan local for ship types, you actually increase the time it takes to gather the intel by the enemy.

e.g. if you are at a pos you can scan local to know they fleet composition.
The way around is to be at the gate when they jump in and see when they decloak. This would make the intel harder to gather as people would jump from the gate instantly and therefore it would be hard to access the fleet composition. Alhought you will know the size of the fleet from local.

This actually encourages work on both sides to find out what the fleet composition of each. And if you add the time delay to the cloak so that the scouts cant perma cloak aka "afk cloak" then, eve will be a better game.

I personally think the idea of hitting the scan too much although its just creating unecesary traffic. Also it helps with "certain organizations" that try and crash the node by spaming during large fleet attacks.


I agree - if you want more ACTIVE intel gathering make it take longer - make it like RL and send out scouts/interceptors where HIGH warp speed and thus added minutes means the difference between win/lose. Personally again I will preach my "get rid of local in non-NPC Null space" speach. You modify D-scan for cloakers..etc etc....See above post. That way you get the best of both worlds to fight AFK cloakers and add a sense of "Terrain" to EVE improving intel as a profession. I think probes and scanning system as others pointed out will need a look at too for balancing purposes.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:14:00 - [116]
 

Make local in 0.0 more like wormhole local chat. You only appear in it if you speak.

I have lived in wormholes before and this would not be a big problem for me. It would take the power away from the AFK cloakers as they wont have the same fear they hold over the ratters anymore. And would also mean they would have to work for the intel they are gathering.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.19 11:58:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 12:00:15
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 11:59:45
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 11:58:46
Originally by: Kiran
Make local in 0.0 more like wormhole local chat. You only appear in it if you speak.

I have lived in wormholes before and this would not be a big problem for me. It would take the power away from the AFK cloakers as they wont have the same fear they hold over the ratters anymore. And would also mean they would have to work for the intel they are gathering.


I dont think this is good at all. The reason been is that its not like a gate that peopl come and go easelly. Its aesy in wh cos you first have to know that there is a wh in system and scan it, then get in it and then scan again inside for the ship. In a normal system is very fast and you dont have to scan for the wh. Its too easy for the attacker. Living in a wh is pritty safe as long as you keep scaning with Dscan for probes. You dont necesarelly even need a scout at th wh entrance. In that respect, its too easy not to get caught at a wh. I lived in a wh for almost a year and never lost a ship and was able to detect many times for probes.



Agente
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:01:00 - [118]
 

If we are thinking strategically what I would suggest is to remove all information from the map in 0.0 and allow players to add that information.

Sovereignty, POSs, stations and such is easy: right click, add to intel.
Roles: Agent, Intel Officer.

Destroyed ships and so disappear. The intel gatherer just adds a tag to the system: Very high, High, medium, low activity detected. Alliances will develop what means each of them. For example:
Low: wrecks found in belts. 5-0 ships in local.

Information about enemy movements I think that is more useful in our existing intel channels, chat and TS. Just add a token, like in WW2 theater control rooms, that you can place in the map at the request of the Strategic Command so it is easier for them to locate it. Ideally you could right click on a player and add him to the token information so it is easier to track the fleet as it moves.
This would be a typical conversation on the Intel Channel:
Agente> Enemy fleet, EPG-HY, Morsus, 30 BS, 10 support, direction unknown.
XO> Acknowledged. Call it Fleet 23 and place a token.

Finally, the map needs to be more useable, like dotland maps. In a universe where distance between systems has no impact, a 3D map adds nothing. The only thing you need to know are connections between systems as conveniently as possible.

In a nutshell:
-Intel gathering is easy but you need to patrol your land if you want it to be up to date. Makes holding tens of systems more difficult.
-Information is easy to use.
-Allows individuals/small corps to be unnoticed if they keep a low profile and go to a backwaters system.

Nieero
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:38:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Nieero on 19/08/2011 14:01:23
Originally by: Razin
Whatís very important here is to build on solid foundation so that later the whole system does not need to be brought down to finally make that one fix thatís been in the plans for years. The foundation is the basic tools you give players to collect intel (because collection is gameplay, not the spreadsheets to keep the data). Local is such a tool, and one that makes the job of gathering intel trivial, as well as making any kind of possible game additions/improvements on this subject worthless. This is the problem that needs to be the focus of this effort.

this is as true as this:
Originally by: Greyscale
Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements particularly to non-specialist pilots, they're still a fairly small piece of the puzzle in absolute terms, and so long as whatever system is doing that job "works", it doesn't matter all that much what it is as far as the rest of the puzzle is concerned.

is false!

Local chat has influence on every other aspect of life in nullsec!
It has inpact on every other topic discussed here. From Smallholding to largescale pvp and back to mining.
It IS intel gathering - and intel is the game. Don't put this issue aside considering it irrelevant!


Edit for clarification:

"The system that is doing the job" is not working. A chat channel as an ingame tool for intel gathering? Instantly and without any effort? That's fundamentally flawed game design.

Regarding your analogy Greyscale - even if they're only covering a small part of the puzzle in absolute terms: You've got the false pieces in the corners of the puzzle you're trying to solve...

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.19 14:33:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 19/08/2011 14:34:58
Local is the open communication channel, and communication is the game.

If the intel feature inherent to it (which is easily justified in game-world terms) happens to be breaking things in some way then that should be adjusted.

---In Game Explanation---
Simply put, whenever you go to a system with communication network access you have to register onto the communication network or none of your communication channels work.

As soon as you have registered on the local portion of the ECN (EVE Communications Network) your presence in that system is public information.

Querying remote nodes requires specialized gear and the skill to use it, which is why only locator agents are able to do so (and charge for the service).


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