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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:34:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 16/08/2011 16:35:49
I think it was the Dominion trailer that had the great fleet battles which culminated with a Russian fleet asking if they were detected to a response of "niet", which we all just shook our heads at since local makes that impossible.

Give us that capability!

Some time back I suggested that only those who use gates should show up in local, so if you cyno or wormhole in, you're "invisible" until you use a gate.

It could be implemented as easily as copying the aggression timer and setting a check to display in local.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:49:00 - [62]
 

Local has to go for any form of intel to have a use. Making it in such a way that it isn't wildly full of exploits from the get go is going to be... well... good luck to whatever poor monkey gets to work on that one.

Ditch local, add an intel technician profession. Provide some kind of ability to identify gate fires, cynos, etc using deployed structures throughout a constellation or region that small gangs can destroy. Obviously, there needs to be something that detects targets for roaming gangs as well.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:05:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
It'd be really great if we could discuss intelligence gathering without it devolving into another pointless ****ing argument about cloaking. That horse is dead as a doornail.


Unfortunately, a discussion of how cloaks fit into intel-gathering is required. But I agree it that it will be very tedious.

In wormhole space, you are unable to detect a cloaked ship in system. Despite this, wormhole space is very popular - seriously, try to find an unoccupied C2 or C3 these days. It's doable, but it'll take you a long time. So if there is to be an ability to detect the signature of a cloaked ship, it must be a Sov-linked structure and therefore unavailable in WH space.

The question is then whether normal 0.0 space should have this ability to detect a cloaked signature. Directly comparing WH space with 0.0 isn't hugely helpful, as it's much easier to choose your destination system in 0.0, and the rate of passage of players through a system is generally higher. I can certainly see how true cloaking would lead to a lot more dead PVEers at first. But the defence tools are still there. People can put cloaked scouts on gates, keep aligned and carry ECM bursts, neuts and ECM drones - and not have a tank with stupid great resist holes. These strategies are standard practice in WH space and while I appreciate that 0.0 is supposed to be "easier" space, I don't think that following these basic rules is too much effort.

But if 0.0 does gain the ability to detect the signature of a cloaked ship, then how would it work? As I see it, there's no justification for finding out the identity of its pilot, as local currently gives you. And it cannot give you anything like real-time information. It's essential that competent players who use the defensive tools that are available to them have an advantage over the unskilled and incompetent who refuse to take responsibility for their own safety, but instead put their faith in a dumb algorithm. In practice, this means that it must be possible for a cloaked scout to jump in, find a ratter/botter and tackle it before his cloaked signature is detected.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:39:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Razin on 16/08/2011 19:09:08

Originally by: Gypsio III
In practice, this means that it must be possible for a cloaked scout to jump in, find a ratter/botter and tackle it before his cloaked signature is detected.

As long as the cloaked scout can scan farther than the range it can be detected at, all is good.

hulk patrol
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:55:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: hulk patrol on 16/08/2011 19:01:53
Edited by: hulk patrol on 16/08/2011 18:55:46
I love the idea of setting up Some anchorable mods in the system to covert a part of the Space with a local. also we can imagine That this Mod Can be moved in the system ( like probes ) to ,for exemple, covert a mining op or move the mods to try to find if ennemies are in the system.
We can imagine That the mods are slow to move...

For setting the mods and see the local region we can imagine the same interface than the probing interface...

And also add a ship modul , maybe a new class of ship, able to scan the "local" field and make an approximative map of the local zone... This Will be great to make Some More tactical approach...

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:11:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Takashi Halamoto
to combat AFK cloaking which is lazy and such like how about

either a ship module designed for say destroyers or fittable on a cap just about
the Quantum Interference Generator, requires fuel, acts like a cyno generator in that it imobilises the person using it has say a 10min cycle timer, while active no cloaking in system by anyone including your own side, so its not something everyone will use because sometimes you want cloaky hics/recons/bombers on your side, but a ship using a QIG shows up in overview like a cyno does,
Far too (needlessly) powerful. Make it a standard module with a fairly long cycle time (say a minute or so) which simply detects cloaked ships on the same grid, and do not restrict the ship. It's short-range sonar that you can park beside your ratting/mining/exploration group to deter cloakers sneaking up on you, but at the same time, the long cycle between “pings” gives the brave cloaker a window of opportunity to get in closer and actually attack.


Love this idea.

Hansipoo
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:42:00 - [67]
 

Before I start: hisec, lowsec, NPC 0.0 stay the same. Let's assume empire factions have already invested in any intel infrastructure we discuss. This is for sov 0.0 where players have to maintain the systems on their terms and wallets.

So I like the idea of some kind of anchor-able structure that provides the sort of information that just automatically shows up in local right now and scrapping the way local works right now. I'm just spitballing ideas. Fell free to rip them apart at your will, hopefully with the intention of making eve better. My thoughts:

1. Make it feasible for either side. Both the alliance that holds the territory can use it, but it's small and cheap enough that even a roaming gang can drop a few in the system to find targets.

2. It can be temporarily disabled. Either by some sort of ewar or with the current hacking mechanics. The efficiency of this method is of course skill-dependent. Large fleets don't waste time trying to hack, and just kill it.

3. It can be destroyed. Simple enough. Large fleets have the firepower to take down an enemy intel network, but for the mobile, smaller fleet, temporary incapacitation works just fine and is more efficient. Like any war, blinding your opponent has benefits.

4. Limited range. It takes several to cover an entire average-size system. Systems are left with "blind spots" where ships can avoid being picked up by intel. Large systems will naturally be friendly to those who don't want to be seen. Planning is necessary to deploy the structures to cover the most space possible as efficiently as possible.

5. The structure provides information at different levels. They have and "optimal" and "fall-of" for information gathering. The closer to the module, the better information that is generated. On-grid with the module gives name, shiptype, speed, agression, etc. Far away, only numbers are provided. So anything from "Herp McDerpinstein | hurricane | 300m/s | no aggression" if they are on top of the module, going all the way down to "14 unknown contacts" if they are all further away. The information acquired runs from total awareness (theoretically possible, but not feasible) to blindness (relying only on dscan as in WHs).

6. (Short) acquisition delay. Jumping into a system doesn't give you immediate access to intelligence. Even something like a 10-second delay to link up with the sensor modules would mean intel channels are still a valuable thing to have and communication between players in different systems is important to make up for the temporary "black-out" upon entering a new system.

7. No such thing as real-time intel. Sensor structures have a certain cycle time. A lucky and fast ship can get into system and warp to a known "blind-spot" fast enough to elude the scanner between cycles (30s-1min?). Difficult, but not impossible for the skilled pilot. However, the modules "go on alert" if they get a hostile contact, shortening their cycle time, possibly with other drawbacks (limited "alert" duration, with cooldown with long cycle?)

8. Not a replacement for scouts. The only sure way to know exactly who is in the system is to watch them go in and out through gates.

9. Not a launch-and-forget asset. Need enough fuel (either ice product, PI or whatever) that they need to be attended to every so often. Fueling is not expensive or a pain. Roaming gangs can keep them up long enough to be useful. Alliances can keep them up without their logistics guys wanting to quit eve. But if they are neglected for too long (a few days? a week? longer?), the the intel from them stops.

10. Intel that just says "something is wrong" exists. The system knows when tampering has occurred. Hacking a module goes unnoticed for a few cycles. However, eventually the message comes up that "Scanner post 4 in JKE-PO system has stopped making regularly scheduled intelligence reports." This can be influenced by skills to hide a hack.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.17 02:45:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 17/08/2011 02:56:42
Originally by: Hansipoo
4. Limited range. It takes several to cover an entire average-size system. Systems are left with "blind spots" where ships can avoid being picked up by intel. Large systems will naturally be friendly to those who don't want to be seen. Planning is necessary to deploy the structures to cover the most space possible as efficiently as possible.
I just had another nasty half-baked idea.

Planet-based scanning arrays fed through PI.

Add another PI structure that gobbles up some common P0 or P1 material and which, when fed and active, provides a… oh, 5 AU detection field around the planet. Or, hell, just to complicate matters, why not make it [Material level] × 5 AU (i.e. feed it water and it's 5AU; feed it broadcast nodes and it's 20 AU)…

Do I need to mention what people will want the Dustbunnies to do with this new facility? Twisted Evil

Bruxtok
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.17 06:19:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Bruxtok on 17/08/2011 06:20:17
Edited by: Bruxtok on 17/08/2011 06:19:27
Lots of suggestions. I have personally sat in an enemy staging system for 6 hours waiting for anyone to show. I would have enjoyed doing something else, but that commitment is probably why we won that particular war.

That said: a butan would be nice. I mean that some kind of ingame reporting to the intel officer besides a chat channel would be an improvement. Perhaps a spreadsheet...Shocked that gets shared among the operatives and the officer. A single place to collate the data. But in game. With a big red butan. Very Happy

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.08.17 06:50:00 - [70]
 

How about this: Players only appear in local when they activate a module on their ship and remain in local until they leave the system. And that includes a cloaking device.







Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:31:00 - [71]
 

Quote:
People can put cloaked scouts on gates, keep aligned and carry ECM bursts, neuts and ECM drones - and not have a tank with stupid great resist holes. These strategies are standard practice in WH space and while I appreciate that 0.0 is supposed to be "easier" space, I don't think that following these basic rules is too much effort.


First of all, according to QEN stats afaik there arent actually many people living in WH systems, yeah many C2s/C3s might have a POS in them, but considering there are 3k WH systems and a very small minority lives in WH systems I wouldnt call it that popular.

Then, forcing people to sit cloaked on a gate watching the screen if something is going to jump in, which might be nothing (dangerous) for hours, is just plain horrible game design. Yes you can use an alt for it which makes it a little less worse, but still it is bad, and you should not be forced to have an alt.

The neuts and ECM drones I do indeed also try to have with me in 0.0 pve, although neuts arent always realistic (on a maelstrom for example you are not going to drop a gun for neuts). No resist holes sounds nice in theory, and is really weird to compare with the situation in WH space considering NPCs there do omni damage. Sure I can drop a gun for neuts, drop a mid for ecm burst, and still try to fit an omni tank that can tank a sanctum. Lets say 4 people are ratting with 2 gates -> 2 cloaked scouts (or if in scan range you can press dir scan every 2 seconds, but really that is also horrible game design), so there effectively goes another 30% of your income. Now add that without all that in the vast majority of 0.0 you already dont make more than you make in high sec, and that this at least cuts your profit margin by 50%, and you are simply far better of in high sec, even before factoring in losses.

And even without resist holes, still your attacked ratting ship has an enormous ammount of incoming npc dps, while in WHs it switches arround. Aditionally it is also without local completely trivial to know exactly where people are ratting in 0.0.

Considering in WH space you got omni damage, target switching NPCs, no direct way to find people doing PVE (not checking dotlan and setting AP), much higher income, mass limits, no (blackops) hotdrops and a healthy home advantage (the defender can always bring some carriers, of course not exactly risk free, but alot less risk than in 0.0), it really is incomparable.


Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:38:00 - [72]
 

also there is the general issue that in pve you usually go active tank moderate dps to beat the npc's

pvp is all about massive damage and buffer passive, now yeah if your in a faction fit tengu a single vagabond is a joke and cant break your active tank without neuting, but a small roaming gang wins every time,


and intel should not involve one guy forced to spend hours sitting cloaked on a gate hostile or friendly, its boring as hell, been there done that, back when i was in MH i spent i think 8hrs continously in an enemy system in cloud ring monitoring for enemy capital movements and gang formups,

it was boring as hell and afterwards i couldnt bring myself to log in for a week

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:44:00 - [73]
 

The idea of a deployable intel-gathering structure sound interesting. It would be a prime target for small gangs, who would have the choice of disabling these in short order (100-200k EHP? Needs to be doable for fast gangs, frigates etc.) as they pass through a system to better hide their location and to disrupt PVEers utterly reliant on intel, or to ignore them for the sake of speed.

These structures would have to be anchored in space, not at under the guns of a POS, so a small gang can actually engage them. Disabling them would be easy, destroying them would be much harder. How would you repair them? Requiring players to RR them may be regarded as an unwanted time sink. I suppose the alternative would be to let them auto-repair over a period of hours? But having players repair them creates the opportunity for fights around the disabled intel structures, which sounds like a good thing.

This is just brainfart, feel free to ridicule it. Razz

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:56:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
The idea of a deployable intel-gathering structure sound interesting. It would be a prime target for small gangs, who would have the choice of disabling these in short order (100-200k EHP? Needs to be doable for fast gangs, frigates etc.) as they pass through a system to better hide their location and to disrupt PVEers utterly reliant on intel, or to ignore them for the sake of speed.
Pretty much what I'd like to see as well, and 200k EHP is what? A well-buffered battleship? Even a small gang should be able to take that out in a minute or two.
Quote:
These structures would have to be anchored in space, not at under the guns of a POS, so a small gang can actually engage them. Disabling them would be easy, destroying them would be much harder.
Well, it could be combined with the old idea of having gates collect the info about who passes in and out of the system, so why not put them there? And, just like with that idea, if you can get into the system without using the gate, you won't show up until you go after the structure.
Quote:
How would you repair them? Requiring players to RR them may be regarded as an unwanted time sink. I suppose the alternative would be to let them auto-repair over a period of hours? But having players repair them creates the opportunity for fights around the disabled intel structures, which sounds like a good thing.
<standard planetside fallback answer>
Why not both? Want it up right****ingimmediatelynownownow because you really need that intel? Just rep it — it won't take long with the kind of (E)HP one would envision, but left to their own devices they chew up [insert random resource] to auto-repair in an hour or so, but that also requires them to be fed every now and then as passers-by take potshots at them.
</standard planetside fallback>

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:05:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Takashi Halamoto on 17/08/2011 09:06:55
TL:DR - intel should be about bob trying to get it and Jim trying to deny it, counters and misinformation as well,

i liked the idea of intel beacons also being short lived like say 6hr lifepsan then explode unless you collect them back in then you can reuse them (kinda like a probe) now give em a slight fuel cost maybe in pi mins?

and also make a Decoy Beacon that when deployed looks and to all intents appears to be the real thing but is cheaper and requires no fuel, it still explodes after 6 hrs though, now a gang roaming through anchors a mix of real and decoy beacons at gates along their roam, or a defender floods space with them, do you kill them all and risk getting only decoys?

or maybe you bring along your own ship or beacons that act as decoys generatng fake intel?

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.17 13:29:00 - [76]
 

As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, we know cloaking needs a look at, but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile


Originally by: Gypsio III
The idea of a deployable intel-gathering structure sound interesting. It would be a prime target for small gangs, who would have the choice of disabling these in short order (100-200k EHP? Needs to be doable for fast gangs, frigates etc.) as they pass through a system to better hide their location and to disrupt PVEers utterly reliant on intel, or to ignore them for the sake of speed.

These structures would have to be anchored in space, not at under the guns of a POS, so a small gang can actually engage them. Disabling them would be easy, destroying them would be much harder. How would you repair them? Requiring players to RR them may be regarded as an unwanted time sink. I suppose the alternative would be to let them auto-repair over a period of hours? But having players repair them creates the opportunity for fights around the disabled intel structures, which sounds like a good thing.

This is just brainfart, feel free to ridicule it. Razz


I'd lean towards hacking (or a.n.other mechanic) it rather than shooting it, because it doesn't make larger fleets more desirable (and it lets us do things like let people steal the fuel), but this sort of thing is under tentative consideration.

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:38:00 - [77]
 

hacking could work, but then i still think the intel gatherer should have the option of deploying 'decoys' that should cost less say but look the same, so you go uh oh they have an intel beacon ill hack it quick,,,,,, ITS A FAAAAKE!

another idea i had but i doubt would be feasable would be a pair of modules or rigs called Aura and Shadow, Shadow would make your ship appear on intel becons/gate monitors whatever one size smaller to a minimum of frigate, and Aura would up it one to a max of Bs, a ship could only mount one of these, so a BS could look like a BC on scan, or a BC could look like a BS OR a Cruiser, a scout actually present would be able to beat this trick, and your sacrificing a slot to pull the trick off,

because while i love alot of the intel gathering ideas, there need to be some disinformation systems so that in a war both sides can have 'spooks' playing intel - counter intel against each other adding a tactical dimension, imagine an alliance that dosnt put too much effort into intel------

Oblivious intel -- okay monitors just picked up a 30man gang looks to be mostly Frigates/Destroyers enetering X-YZ1,

little bit later someone screaming that it was a 50man HAC gang and their response fleet got shredded, wheras a more savy alliance reports a 30man hac gang running enough ewar to pretend to be intys

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:50:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
As an example, last week I found a cruiser mining a gas cloud in a WH. As I tackled it, a Pilgrim and two Falcons uncloaked on me. Who was the victim of nonconsensual PVP there?
You completely ignored Furbs counter to that exact reasoning:

You tried to take on 1 gas miner in W-space, and it appeared he had 3 friends to guard him. As the tread is about null sec not W-space, imagine the same situation there: It won't happen! If those 4 would do high-sec level 4 missions they would make more ISK than when they let one person make ISK because they need the other three to provide any form of safety.

Providing the means for losing more ships while PvE'ing will only result in less null-sec PvE, and I think the entire goal of the null-sec overhaul is enticing more players to null-sec. It will also make it harder for PvP as you don't know where the enemy is. Sure, the enemy also doesn't know where you are, but if you keep searching and not finding you won't get much fights -> wasted evening / gametime.

I severely disagree local is broken; it's practically the only way to know if you need to GTFO. Not sure how it is nowadays with the upgrades to mining belts and plexes, but watching D-scan for probes is futile, as you won't notice the few unfriendly ones among all the friendlies probing for wormholes or plexes, and the second an enemy comes on grid I'm screwed and will most likely lose my ship.

I put in a lot of effort to claim and hold this space, don't slap me in the face by making it virtually impossible to reap the rewards... Sure, a POS can net some ISK, but far from every alliance member has one, and even then the logistics are a nightmare.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:25:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Gypsio III
As an example, last week I found a cruiser mining a gas cloud in a WH. As I tackled it, a Pilgrim and two Falcons uncloaked on me. Who was the victim of nonconsensual PVP there?
You completely ignored Furbs counter to that exact reasoning:

You tried to take on 1 gas miner in W-space, and it appeared he had 3 friends to guard him. As the tread is about null sec not W-space, imagine the same situation there: It won't happen! If those 4 would do high-sec level 4 missions they would make more ISK than when they let one person make ISK because they need the other three to provide any form of safety.


Yeah, you've fundamentally missed the point here. Those four players were not PVEing - their objective was not to get ISK, but to PVP and to defend their space. They placed a juicy bait in a site and waited for someone to charge in. This is good, intelligent play - most intelligent of all was the way that their mining Moa never aggressed my Proteus, because that kind of behaviour shows up on killboards.

The only reason why that situation would not happen in 0.0 is the attitudes of its inhabitants. And local making it damn obvious that it was a trap, of course.

You say yourself that you don't bother keeping aligned, and that although that system is full of friendlies "probing for WHs or plexes", not a single one can be bothered to come to your aid. Clearly, 0.0 is not dangerous enough for you to be motivated to learn even the most basic lessons in awareness, self-defence or cooperation. That kind of attitude needs to be left in highsec.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:25:00 - [80]
 

I wrote up a short blog post on the problems around tactical intelligence and 'situational awareness' (here).

Intelligence generally scales (and degrades) over time. A scout in a system will provide short lifed information (hostile at planet). That data, through information management and the compilation from multiple sources builds an intelligence picture from the tactical to the strategic.

An example: The same hostile is seen every Thursday at the same time, in the same ship but never at any other time.

So I think what you are looking at is a need to:

1. Build up a short term tactical picture (ideally for a 'commander' to base decisions off).
2. Record that short term tactical picture for subsequent analysis (looking for patterns) and longer term planning.

Is this what you are driving at?

C.

Raz Xym
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:42:00 - [81]
 

I am a fan of deployable items that feed information to your scanner. They should be easily destroyed, and probably time out( run outta fuel ot something after a few hours.) I have never understood why I need to constantly press my direction scanner. I am sure if our civilization was smart enough to make supercaps we could definately automate a directional scanner.

I could see POS's and stations having more permanent scanning abilities. And your personal scanner could be attached to these and/or the temporary ones described above.

Also, A better method to share bookmarks within a corp/alliance would not hurt.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:02:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
You say yourself that you don't bother keeping aligned
I stopped reading there, quote plz... I'm not going to defend myself against inaccurate accusations.

As for the first part, sure you can trap, in the exact same way, even with local. Roaming enemies don't mine gas, so it had to be a local inhabitant. I've been mostly in CVA space, but there are usually quite a few players in any given system, so even if you knew there were 3 more players there, they had a plethora of reasons to be there without laying a trap.

PanKrolik
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:09:00 - [83]
 

Just a small question how are you going to stop me from doing this:

I will get in to your rating system in a cloaky bomber with cyno. Make a spot and logoff. At a completly convinient time for ME my buddies will make 25-30 man fleet with logis and e-war support. I will login get in fleet. While warping start to for any jucy rating boat. When i land i will have it at 180 if not better directional. I fire my onboard scaner and wait for anoms. By the end of onboard cycle i will have you pined to a point when i will have very good estimate on what anom/belt my desired target is. I warp to you, tackle light a cyno. My 25 man gang bridges in. You just lost an expensive ship and whatever ragtag guard fleet you had. Buddies get the loot give me LO and after cyno burns out they go on their merry way and my alt goes back to his spot logs. I might log back in an hour or in a day or in a MONTH and you will live in constant fear even when i might be 10j away because i loged at 4am in the morning while you and your buddies were sleeping. Yes you can add me to address book but it will make things even more funny for my griefing need because after a cuple of victims entire constelation will run for their lives every time i log in. Ah yes you might have a cyno jammer but i can get another alt loged 1j away near the gate or a covert cyno. And there will be dozens if not hundreds like me. Before end of week no one will even bother to try run annoms or belts because it will be a certain death with only quesion when not if.

Project 69
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:14:00 - [84]
 

- change local to delayed mode wherever players can claim sov
- Give us the possibility to "attach" a intel module on gates which will send their gathered information to a specially designed "intel window"
- Make those modules hackable which would disable them for let's say 30 minutes
- of course only the space holders can install them
- add a small display on the HUD that would should you what's being detected. (blues, reds, neuts would be enough).
- limit the number of modules that can be installed, so there's still be a way to "fly under the radar".


well I guess you get the general idea *salutes*


Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:18:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Razin on 17/08/2011 15:20:44
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile

Notsureifserious.jpg

How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? I mean, what is the purpose of all these deployable intel collecting structures if we have instant local? To make it even more OP?

Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:05:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 17/08/2011 16:09:48
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile
Notsureifserious.jpg

How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? I mean, what is the purpose of all these deployable intel collecting structures if we have instant local? To make it even more OP?

Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before?
^^ That. There's really no point in talking about 0.0 intel unless it includes a discussion about what to replace local with.

And note the wording here: it's not a question of “if” you removed local — it's about what is put in place when it is removed. Keeping it in the game in its current form is a complete non-starter that makes pretty much all other suggestions redundant, overpowered, or just plain old meaningless.

The goal here must beto make intel something you work for, per your own design guidelines. As such, it's not something that “needs to be looked at” — it's something that needs to go so you can put something else in its place that allows for the effort/counter-effort back and forth and hide-and-seek that turns intel gathering and avoidance into actual gameplay.

You say in another thread that it's because local is not a 0.0 problem, specifically, but EVE-wide, but 0.0 is where it most directly hurts the game so this is pretty darn good opportunity to discuss how to handle that particular problem and to come up with a working replacement.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:17:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 17/08/2011 18:32:21
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 17/08/2011 15:20:44
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile

Notsureifserious.jpg

How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? I mean, what is the purpose of all these deployable intel collecting structures if we have instant local? To make it even more OP?

Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before?
I have to agree also. How can you begin to talk about this without including local?

It's the elephant in the room and you seem to be overlooking it. Laughing

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:29:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 17/08/2011 15:20:44
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts) Smile

Notsureifserious.jpg

How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? I mean, what is the purpose of all these deployable intel collecting structures if we have instant local? To make it even more OP?

Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before?
I have to agree also. How can you begin to talk about this without including local?

It's the elephant in the room and you seen to be overlooking it. Laughing


Yeah, this is a cubic litre of nonsense. I thought that the purpose of this thread was to discuss what will replace local. WTH is it about then? Neutral

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:03:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: MeBiatch
This is a major design flaw in the game... In eve everything has its counter exept afk cloaking.
That's because AFK cloaking is itself a counter to local. Creating a counter-counter is pointless and counterproductive. The proper response is to fix the thing that the counter is created for so you can adjust the counter to something more reasonable. In this case, fix local and AFK cloaking ceases to be a problem — nothing even needs to be adjusted.


yes and no...

yes removing/delayed local will make it so afk cloaking is a non problem...
IMO there should be zero counter for cover ops cloaks... but the prototype and regual tech II should have a counter wether is be time based or modual based or even ship based...

secondly it does not fix the problem with afk cloaking in an annom to keep it from spawining... fix that too...

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:36:00 - [90]
 

I think all the people talking about Local are missing the big picture. Local is a symptom of the larger problem which is that the Intel tools are frightfully limited, and we work around it with Local. Fix intel, and you're in a much better position to evaluate what to do about Local, later.

The thing which strikes me about intel at the moment is that there's a lot of boring stuff which should be automatic, so players can focus on doing interesting stuff.

To this end I think a couple of things could be immediately done:

1. Uncloaked ships that are outside POS shields should be able to automatically squawk intel. Players appearing in Local get squawked, players you end up on grid with get their ship-type squawked as well.

"Squawked" intel should go - initially - to some type of XML structured chat channel, configurable to be passed up to a certain level (i.e. nowhere, to my fleet, to my corp, to my alliance). Each of those entities in turn can configure where their intel streams go and they can be split to head multiple places (i.e. so I can send to multiple corp or multiple alliance channels). Data should be able to move 1-way - alliance level intel you might not want to send back to all grunts.

This would be the type of raw data which player utilities need to be able to access in real time (since sans UI it's not great) - so it would need an API which would let us "plug in" utilities to it.

Intel data implicitely tags it's origin, and should sort by standings configurably (i.e. neutral and reds you send, blues you don't).

The goal of this, is that players who are active (i.e. not AFK cloaking and not sitting in POS shields safely) automatically provide intel functions, like a little field-of-vision in the fog of space, for anyone they're friendly to.

2. Cloaked ships and ships in POS shields get the manual version of this. As in - they can push a button to squawk Local to their intel streams, and squawk their grid contents to tag names to ship types. This requires an active player (and necessarily also *reveals* active players if you have spies looking at someone else's intel streams) which would provide a weak counter to AFK cloaking.

3. Allow cloaked ships to target while cloaked, and have cloaks break target locks when their cloaking status changes. Let ship scanners and cargo scanners be used while cloaked.

This is so dedicated intel ships like Covert Ops frigates have something more important then just pushing a button - both these modules should have their cloaked range reduced to say, 10-20km. Close enough to make being uncloaked a real threat. But the power now is that covert ops frigates and other cloaking ships have a good reason to close in on targets on grid, since they can provide cargo and fittings intelligence to ship intel streams (it's buffered up and then sent to an intel stream when they push the aforementioned button).

4. Obviously this gives everyone potentially amazingly powerful intel quite easily, but there is a purpose behind this. A system with automated broadcasting of intel from all active players helps everyone, provides targets for spies (take an enemy's channel, start mapping where all their players are), and with the changes above let's recon pilots focus on fun stuff (scouting, following fleets, scanning ships without being decloaked). It would let people and corps to sell their intel services to each other, but most importantly it means there's a framework for a proper intelligence system: whether you go with automated system scanners, D-scans, beacons whatever - the value of all those things is becomes obvious.

And obviously, with an integrated intel system in client all of this would start to be very cool - dynamic maps of what's where, bulletin lists of enemy incursions in space, with updating ship-types and scanned fittings (making the scanner give incomplete data would be a good balancing factor). You'd finally be looking at an intel system which could exist "post-Local".


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