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Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.30 12:37:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Sigras
I think the problem with using the current POS mechanic is that they still provide a safe spot in the system for enemies to potentially use.

Anything that an alliance can readily find that isnt owned by them, theyre going to go to any length to remove.

The only solution is to make something that is difficult to find.


That's part of my point. Make small and or medium POSs impossible to remove. Along with this idea - ust review and or ADJUST what can be done with said POSs. IE - small, mediums can't build CAP ships because cap assembly array requires too much PG/CPU. That sort of thing. Change the fitting reqs for modules to tweak this sort of small holding idea making it desirable for small groups that want to squat, hard for big groups to "Get rid of" (But NOT impossible), and hard for other big groups to squat as well since the small / med pos will not support their endeavors.

The nice part is too that the small/med pos will provide a safe haven to an extent but that is not to say some large alliance couldn't run them off. All they have to do is hunt them 23/7 or bubble gates and it is not impossible for them to live there but darn close. Those small holdings people will have to adapt to survive in the harshness of 0.0 but if they work at it they may: 1) Make friends or 2) prevail and or 3) move on safely and reap benefits. ETC ETC

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:18:00 - [242]
 

any idea's with a POS is doomed to fail as a pos is too easy to find.
and what is to stop a big alliance of dropping 100+ dreads on it and kill the tower?
as there is no way a small (1-5 players) group of players can defend a POS against a big dread fleet unless they have some major suppercap support in witch case they are no longer a small group.

EdTeach
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:14:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: EdTeach on 31/08/2011 02:14:15

I cannot see any anchored/immobile structure of any type surviving in Eve nul without the express permission of the holding alliance.

To expound on the mobile base idea presented earlier... perhaps to incentivise both sides there could be bonuses/attributes involved.



Any new structures/ships reside in a newly detected(constructed) type of deadspace. Non-PVE or weak PVE areas that cannot be scanned down exactly. A 100% reading allows warp onto a random spot on-grid. No ships within this type of deadspace can be probed/scanned down. Only the deadspace area itself.

Mobile Base Cloaking Module. Uses POS fuel. Deactivates when a ship launches or closes to standard decloak range. 60 second re-cloak timer.

Each NON-SOV-Holding(smallholder) Mobile Base acts as a small temporary Anomaly booster for the system it resides in, or the area within some distance of the Base. Call it a Pirate Lure, or an Enhanced Mining Probe or something. The upshot is that anyone probing can see more anomalies of varied types, according to the wishes of the smallholders and their ships' abilities.

------

This scales from a single Dread-sized group of 4-5 pilots, to gypsy groups of up to a 100 or so in a fleet of Supercap bases. The more they gather and cluster, the stronger they become. The smaller the group, the less likely to draw notice.

By giving bonuses for all, the smallholder presence becomes less intrusive.

Hard-to-find area, plus cloaked Bases, plus unknown number and size of Bases, plus a number of same-type empty deadspace zones for false leads, plus ability to Jump every 24 hours.

-----


The hard part may be coding aspects of stations, POSs and ships into one semi-mobile construct.


--



EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:21:00 - [244]
 

Is a large alliance going to send 5,10,20,50,100 dreads in to kill a meaningless small staging POS? Which can be put right back up again after they leave? Not unless they really, really want you out of there and kill the small, worthless POS you put up day after day after day. If you can end up catching a recon ship or a covops, maybe even a dread if you're lucky, your small entity can win the isk war. If they "steal the moon", there are plenty of moons in most systems. Alliances can have all of their systems towered and fueled, but it is way too damn expensive to be viable.

Moon mining isn't very much viable for small entities because a large entity WILL defend their money-making moons with everything they have, unless said large entity is having internal problems. This means that all of the useful moons are taken. This means that any POS you put up will likely not make you much money, but actually cost you ISK to have sitting there running. This means your POS is worthless in the eyes of a large entity, in fact some people might think it's detrimental to your entity because you're running the pos at a loss. But it serves as a meeting point for a small group, somewhere to hang out, somewhere to temporarily store stuff (because you shouldn't keep stuff around that is valuable, because it can be stolen by a corp theft, or a large could shoot down your POS) or to refit your ship. Stront timers allow time for a smaller alliance to rally the troops and move assets out of a SMA (but not a CHA, not sure if allowing access to this while the POS is reinforced this is a good idea or not).

It's the same as keeping your stuff in a nullsec outpost, one day your alliance can disband under your nose and a hostile force starts taking your alliance assets, or you will resub after not playing for awhile, and suddenly you lose access to most of your stuff. If you are living on the edge there are going to be consequences if you don't notice things like your POS being reinforced, as it should be.

Large entities don't go around shooting POS for no reason. Shooting structures is the most boring activity in EVE. People loathe having to shoot POS. It also isn't very viable to have 24/7 bubble camps unless you have a legitimate purpose, like supercaps being trapped en masse (VFK), or because you are headshotting an alliance to steal its space (6VDT). Even if you do large flocks of people will burn out.

A high morale is the most important thing an alliance must have.

I can not make this more clear! Are you as a pilot going to join a fleet willingly if you know that you're going to have to wait 30 minutes for a bar to deplete, then come back at 5am on a Tuesday to make the three bars deplete fully, no fights involved? Is an alliance seriously going to keep shooting your worthless pos, when there are other things it can do? Hell no!

If they are shooting a tower, they likely want the moongoo, or they want to halt another player's supercapital construction. Not because some trolls are killing their ratters occasionally, or running interference with their fleets. It's simply a waste of time and effort.

Taking concessions from a large group WILL be tough if you are not persistent. If they are more dedicated than you are you will be run out of town. There should be no question about this. If a large entity is dedicated enough, they can destroy your "hidden" 200au base with 500 ships.

That being said, the main issue here is that there are not enough small holding entities that can look at a piece of nullsec and say, I want to live there but I don't want to join a large coalition for defense, and most importantly have the means to make your time worthwhile. This is impossible in the current system because there is no way for a 0.0-only unaligned entity living in non-npc space to be self-sufficient without moons, or having a huge playerbase to take tax funds from. There is too much risk, not enough reward

Vil Mahona
Posted - 2011.08.31 03:38:00 - [245]
 

To make small holding viable you are going to have to nerf the ability of the major alliances to hold large amounts of space. No alliance should be able to have systems in more than 1 Region at a time and even in the region they hold in they need to have to claim it 1 constellation at a time. That will open up space for others to claim. Sure the large alliance may split into 3 or 4 smaller alliances to make it easier for them to claim a full region or a constellation in another region but over time those alliances will not be as close as they were as 1 alliance.

For a deep space structure ideas you will need something that can be launched for player/corp and will auto anchor itself in a dead space that can't be probed out unless the player is sitting in a ship in the dead space instead of docked up inside it. course if it auto anchors in a dead space then it needs to auto generate a BM for the player so he can find it.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.31 09:45:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Originally by: Sigras
I think the problem with using the current POS mechanic is that they still provide a safe spot in the system for enemies to potentially use.

Anything that an alliance can readily find that isnt owned by them, theyre going to go to any length to remove.

The only solution is to make something that is difficult to find.


That's part of my point. Make small and or medium POSs impossible to remove. Along with this idea - ust review and or ADJUST what can be done with said POSs. IE - small, mediums can't build CAP ships because cap assembly array requires too much PG/CPU. That sort of thing. Change the fitting reqs for modules to tweak this sort of small holding idea making it desirable for small groups that want to squat, hard for big groups to "Get rid of" (But NOT impossible), and hard for other big groups to squat as well since the small / med pos will not support their endeavors.

The nice part is too that the small/med pos will provide a safe haven to an extent but that is not to say some large alliance couldn't run them off. All they have to do is hunt them 23/7 or bubble gates and it is not impossible for them to live there but darn close. Those small holdings people will have to adapt to survive in the harshness of 0.0 but if they work at it they may: 1) Make friends or 2) prevail and or 3) move on safely and reap benefits. ETC ETC


The problem with this is that there is nothing that keeps a large alliance from just caging the POS with bubbles.

The defenses of a large POS are absolutely zero deterrent to a large alliance. When attacking something static in your space, you have all of the initiative, meaning you get to see what their defenses are before you choose what to use to attack it.

If it uses anything but large guns, it doesnt have the DPS to take out a single supercarrier before all of the guns get incapped, and if it only uses large guns, they're no threat to a close range battleship fleet, or an interceptor that's just going to waste all of their ammo.

anything in a larger entities space that they can find, they will destroy, no-mater how hard it is. Ive even spent a few hours manually triangulating an anchored can in our space with nothing but a directional scanner and solar system map, just because I didnt like the idea of someone else having a place to store stuff in my space.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.31 10:16:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Sigras on 31/08/2011 10:18:36
Originally by: Sigras
Anything in a larger entities space that they can find, they will destroy, no-mater how hard it is. Ive even spent a few hours manually triangulating an anchored can in our space with nothing but a directional scanner and solar system map, just because I didnt like the idea of someone else having a place to store stuff in my space.


In light of this, I propose the following:

A Mobile Outpost that is anchorable anywhere and does not show up on D-scan or probes. It would have a limited amount of hanger space and be able to be upgraded to include ammo manufacturing, 75% capped refining, etc. with drawbacks (more on this later)
It cannot be deployed where you have sov, and limit 1 per system.

In order to find said outpost, an alliance could deploy a system scanner array that would be deployed inside a POS's shield bubble, and take up 5,500 CPU and 1,000,000 PG


At any time, you could call for a system scan and the array would tell you whether or not there was a mobile outpost in system. If such an outpost were found, it would begin a 10 day triangulation process which would appear in system as a reinforce timer does on a station.

This would be reduced by 1 day for each upgrade in the mobile outpost and would be further reduced by one second for every 28,000 kg of mass that docks or undocks from the outpost (about an hour for every battleship)

This means that a small operation could stay hidden for quite a while, as long as they didnt arouse suspicion of the local sov holder, but an operation of any substantial size that got discovered could be served an eviction notice fairly readily and still have time to get their stuff out.

The reduction in time to find it also serves to reduce this outposts usefulness as a forward attack base because a few ships coming and going would reveal its position fairly quickly.

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:30:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Sigras
This would be reduced by 1 day for each upgrade in the mobile outpost and would be further reduced by one second for every 28,000 kg of mass that docks or undocks from the outpost (about an hour for every battleship)


drop the rule about the undock as you know some alliance is gone come up with the idea of having their 200+ man cap fleet play undock games to get the smallholdings right then and there

carriers/dreads have a lot of mass :)

Decus Daga
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:38:00 - [249]
 

I like the idea mentioned above how someone mentioned exploration in highsec, where they ran around with an orca to be their mobile base. Definatly always wanted something like this in null, a small ship/shipyard type object i can jump in, and cloak up. It de-cloaks when someone docks or undocks (say a 1-5 minute timer), requires ice to run, is modular(the more modules connected will use up more fuel/h). Definatly not give it anything comparable to a station, but a home-away-from-home would be nice :D

Definatly not anything tied to sov-warfare.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:39:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Originally by: Ms Michigan
Originally by: Sigras
I think the problem with using the current POS mechanic is that they still provide a safe spot in the system for enemies to potentially use.

Anything that an alliance can readily find that isnt owned by them, theyre going to go to any length to remove.

The only solution is to make something that is difficult to find.


That's part of my point. Make small and or medium POSs impossible to remove. Along with this idea - ust review and or ADJUST what can be done with said POSs. IE - small, mediums can't build CAP ships because cap assembly array requires too much PG/CPU. That sort of thing. Change the fitting reqs for modules to tweak this sort of small holding idea making it desirable for small groups that want to squat, hard for big groups to "Get rid of" (But NOT impossible), and hard for other big groups to squat as well since the small / med pos will not support their endeavors.

The nice part is too that the small/med pos will provide a safe haven to an extent but that is not to say some large alliance couldn't run them off. All they have to do is hunt them 23/7 or bubble gates and it is not impossible for them to live there but darn close. Those small holdings people will have to adapt to survive in the harshness of 0.0 but if they work at it they may: 1) Make friends or 2) prevail and or 3) move on safely and reap benefits. ETC ETC


The problem with this is that there is nothing that keeps a large alliance from just caging the POS with bubbles.

The defenses of a large POS are absolutely zero deterrent to a large alliance. When attacking something static in your space, you have all of the initiative, meaning you get to see what their defenses are before you choose what to use to attack it.

If it uses anything but large guns, it doesnt have the DPS to take out a single supercarrier before all of the guns get incapped, and if it only uses large guns, they're no threat to a close range battleship fleet, or an interceptor that's just going to waste all of their ammo.

anything in a larger entities space that they can find, they will destroy, no-mater how hard it is. Ive even spent a few hours manually triangulating an anchored can in our space with nothing but a directional scanner and solar system map, just because I didnt like the idea of someone else having a place to store stuff in my space.


Yes I know and if they really want you out of there that bad - move on. There is other 0.0 that is less dense. Not to mention people are people and you might talk them into letting you stay if we work out benefits. ALSO - caging isn't perfect. If they abuse it with can decloakers too it is an exploit --- so I fail to see your point.

In RE: to large POS's I agree. IF you read my posts you would know I think those need a HP Buff a tad but again - Large POS's would be for SOV gaining instead of Small holding. They would be for escalating the space into something more like cap ships (possibly) or moon mining, etc etc. Small and Med POS's would be relegated to small holdings. It really isnt' that complex of a problem you guys are just so object to exploring the idea I have to spell it out to you.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:47:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Sigras

anything in a larger entities space that they can find, they will destroy, no-mater how hard it is. Ive even spent a few hours manually triangulating an anchored can in our space with nothing but a directional scanner and solar system map, just because I didnt like the idea of someone else having a place to store stuff in my space.


Depending on how deep your space is, it can take 30m-1hr for a blockade runner to redo his ammo can. Or if the hostile pilot figures out that someone indeed blew it up, he can put up 5 cans in a system and watch you waste your entire day looking for ~20m isk cans to blow up. If a hostile alliance wants to destroy your POS, you should be able to put up another one within the day. Or you can put up 5 in the surrounding area and watch them shoot a bunch of meaningless small staging POS for fun. A large alliance can bubble camp your POS, or the system you live in with 50 guys 23/7. But none of this dedication comes without a morale cost. Shooting static structures is not fun. Not fighting is not fun. Not earning isk is not fun. If you keep sending your troops to do inane tasks, with no end in sight, your troops will look elsewhere for something to do. If either the defender, or the attacker is dedicated enough to cast the other side out, they should be able to. Wars in EVE aren't won with supercapitals. They aren't won with isk or economy wars. They aren't won by ganking people behind enemy lines. Wars are all won because of morale. If you are victorious enough, you could even cause a failcascade!

I have said previously that I believe it should be easier to set up POS by making modules smaller so that you don't need to have multiple blockade runners going back and forth. This is a boon for all EVE players who set up POS.

Regarding detectability, I agree that it is too easy to find out where hostile bases are, as I have stated previously. This is why I think that the messages directors receive regarding hostile POSes being anchored/going online in your sovereign space should be removed. This means that if you anchor a POS in space that is barely traveled through and isn't used very much by a large entity, it won't be easily detectable, and the people who travel there don't really care about the POS. If you choose your place wisely, they won't care/won't find you.

It's hard to hide anything in this game, especially when you have a large entity breathing down your neck. If you make your outpost 200au off, or make it undetectable by normal means, entities that hate you will just put spies into your alliance. You could close recruiting, but :morale:. Or someone you thought you could trust with the location (your entire corporation/alliance would have access) could give the bookmark away for isk, without the leadership knowing anything about it.

Let's get back to the main problem here. It's not about making POS so powerful that they can take out fleets. It's not about giving a smaller entity a 100% safe home. Nullsec already has a proper element of risk.

It's about making it profitable for a small entity to sustainably live on the edges of a large empire. If a large empire wants to kill your POS, you should be able to have enough isk to put another one back up within a short amount of time. If a large empire blobs the hell out of your fleets, you should be able to have enough isk in reserve to pay for another one. The only way to do this currently is to have highsec alts, have a moon mining system already put up, or have a large group of members to draw tax incomes from.

When it becomes more productive for the common player to earn isk in nullsec than it is to run L4 missions in highsec, you will see a boom in entities that to want to go to nullsec to earn more isk, although some will want to join larger entities, some will want to make their own stake. And the way to do this to allow small entities to squat in unused sovereign space and be profitable.

Teya Ihara
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:45:00 - [252]
 

Re: The POS solutions, none of them will work, and the ones that might are not inline with stated design goals of both this and other sections for the 0.0 overhaul, IMO.

First and foremost, making small POS harder/more time consuming to kill fixes exactly nothing. If you're in sov space with a POS and the mechanics are anything *at all* like they are now, it's being shot. It doesn't matter how tedious or boring it is. This also conflicts with the design goal stated under "Territory and Conquest", Shoot People not Structures. If they are killable at all an you're in someone else's space, its going to be shot. More HP won't save it, more defenses won't save it, more tedium in shooting them won't save it.

Should you instead make them invulnerable, or cheap and spammable, sov holders will save you the trouble and POS every moon unless there is some SEVERE disadvantage to doing so. The threat of a POS in your space is far greater than most any penalty you can think up which isn't unfairly broken. If you remove one pos per moon you're breaking the intended mechanic, and this will likely result in more dedicated removal of intruding structures, at the cost of fun(I can invision the wonderful CTAs of weekly small POS purging night). In addition opposing alliances will simply spam the crap out of opponent's systems with POS mods to bore them into submission. NEVER underestimate the willingness of someone in EVE to use a game mechanic in an unintended way. Imagine an actual BS fleet in your sov systems with 100+ POS's pre-setup, sounds like a pretty good way to make the defenders want to quit all-together to me.

I don't see this as a solution at all, though I have interest in living in nullsec again, changes to the POS system will not be the way to get me back there. The main idea here is to bore the Sov holders into giving up space they don't feel is worth defending. I don't see this as a way to make nullsec more exciting as an option for small holders.

There needs to be very difficult to find small holdings, or an incredibly altering shift in the way Sov holding works all together for small holdings to be viable. Simply having a pos in someone's sov space isn't a solution to the issue, IMO.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:20:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: bartos100
Originally by: Sigras
This would be reduced by 1 day for each upgrade in the mobile outpost and would be further reduced by one second for every 28,000 kg of mass that docks or undocks from the outpost (about an hour for every battleship)


drop the rule about the undock as you know some alliance is gone come up with the idea of having their 200+ man cap fleet play undock games to get the smallholdings right then and there

carriers/dreads have a lot of mass :)


no, it reduces the time for the mass that undocks or docks from the mobile outpost, so, the people using the smallholdings outpost would be in control of how much mass goes in/out, not the people trying to find it.

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Yes I know and if they really want you out of there that bad - move on. There is other 0.0 that is less dense. Not to mention people are people and you might talk them into letting you stay if we work out benefits. ALSO - caging isn't perfect. If they abuse it with can decloakers too it is an exploit --- so I fail to see your point.


I think you've missed the point. The point I was making was if someone would go to such measures to kill something thats hard to find, how much worse would it be for something that is easy to find.

And yes, I know that you can still cloak to escape a caged POS, but is that really the point?

Large alliances would never stand for a POS of any size in their space because its a safe spot, even if it doesnt do anything else, they would do ANYTHING to get rid of it, and if you have to make a deal with the holding alliance, how is that different from what we have now?

Originally by: Ms Michigan
In RE: to large POS's I agree. IF you read my posts you would know I think those need a HP Buff a tad but again - Large POS's would be for SOV gaining instead of Small holding. They would be for escalating the space into something more like cap ships (possibly) or moon mining, etc etc. Small and Med POS's would be relegated to small holdings.


HP is not the problem, you could quadruple the POSs HP and it would just take longer to kill, the attacking entities would still never be in any danger,

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:27:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Teya Ihara
If you're in sov space with a POS and the mechanics are anything *at all* like they are now, it's being shot. It doesn't matter how tedious or boring it is. ... The threat of a POS in your space is far greater than most any penalty you can think up which isn't unfairly broken.


Is a small group of people who go through belts or do some anomalies a couple times a day that threatening? Or maybe a couple of people who run in stealth bombers and recons looking for easy ratter kills? Not every POS is a dangerous threat to your sovereignty which must be extinguished. You might not even notice it's there if it's far out of the way.

Originally by: Teya Ihara
In addition opposing alliances will simply spam the crap out of opponent's systems with POS mods to bore them into submission. NEVER underestimate the willingness of someone in EVE to use a game mechanic in an unintended way. Imagine an actual BS fleet in your sov systems with 100+ POS's pre-setup, sounds like a pretty good way to make the defenders want to quit all-together to me.


If you've allowed the enemy to set up 100+ pos in your system, or allow them to set up such a tactical advantage because they are simply trying harder than you are, you've lost de facto sovereignty in your system. Fueling lots of POS in a single system doesn't seem like a very fun activity and would be very expensive for any side, unless a group is dedicated in their goal and it is economically viable for them, it isn't really a valid option.

Originally by: Teya Ihara
Shoot People not Structures. If they are killable at all an you're in someone else's space, its going to be shot.


The idea is if you want to truly evict someone, you will kill/gank/otherwise demoralize their players enough that they will want to pack up and look elsewhere for fun. Not make them say "LOL THEY KILLED OUR WORTHLESS STAGING WITH 300 PEOPLE POS HAHA GF GF M8 o7". It doesn't matter what weird strange new mechanic you end up living in, if the opposing force keeps killing your ships either through skill or sheer luck, you won't want to stick around when there are other areas you can be more profitable in. If the larger entity is going to run away when they see you and just hit structures when you're not looking they will be punished by having to do something boring.

Originally by: Teya Ihara
The main idea here is to bore the Sov holders into giving up space they don't feel is worth defending.


Welcome to Sov warfare, my friend. It's god awful because everything has too much EHP but it works.



The systems for smallholding groups are already in place. We don't need to make new mechanics. It's just that the risk/reward factor for small unaligned 0.0 entities is messed up, making people like Teya want to stay in empire because there are simply little to no rewards.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:29:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: EI Digin
Is a small group of people who go through belts or do some anomalies a couple times a day that threatening? Or maybe a couple of people who run in stealth bombers and recons looking for easy ratter kills? Not every POS is a dangerous threat to your sovereignty which must be extinguished. You might not even notice it's there if it's far out of the way.


it doesnt matter if its a threat, that ammo can that I tracked down wasnt a threat. We tracked it down and killed it because we could, it was our space and if you didnt have our permission, you couldnt play there . . .

Everyone does that, why do you think there are vacant systems in almost every region of 0.0? Because nobody wants that space? No! its because that space is controlled by a large alliance who kills everyone who tries to set up shop there; because theyre a threat? no because they're a potential threat, and because they can.

I mean, if some idiot member of a 3 man corporation sets up a POS in my system, is the POS itself a threat? no, of course not, it cant attack unless im dumb enough to warp there, but how do I know that tomorrow it isnt going to be a staging point for a fleet from PL that they hired?

Your argument that the mechanics for small holdings are already in place holds no water, and if you disagree, try putting up a POS in UJXC-B or 6Y-WRK or 9-7SRQ and see how long it lasts.

The closest thing Eve has to small holding right now is renting, and that is by no means small.

Stan Durden
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:19:00 - [256]
 

I think some of these ideas conflict with any chance of making null more profitable for indy. The mini structures a lot of you are talking about would be perfect for small raiding gangs to work out of. One of those active in your area could easily kill the possibility of indy work. It doesn't take many ships to kill a fleet of hulks. I like the idea of small mobile bases but I think they need to be very heavily balanced for secrecy. If an enemy comes looking for that structure he should be able to find it. Otherwise you will have griefer corps setting up those structures inside alliance indy systems. And ya you may be able to kill it the next day, but how many hulks will it cost you to find out it is there? And how many of those hulk pilots will you be able to persuade to continue mining?

I am not an indy guy, but I realize those guys gota have some room to build the ships I fly. So just be careful you don't choke them out. Because while it is still fun to shoot up carebears, it is a heluva lot more fun shooting people who shoot back. And if you kill all the carebears then the combat guys won't have anything to fly.

I think the ideas for small holding should tend towards cheep, extremely mobile, and expendable. I do not think it should be hard to find or destroy though. Otherwise it becomes way too easy to grief the hell out of large alliances with very little effort.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.09.01 06:56:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Sigras
... space [that] is controlled by a large alliance [will] kill everyone who tries to set up shop there ...


Vacant systems are vacant because they are not worth the sov bills. An alliance has a small interest in them because they can sov up if they are under pressure and cause more timers. They don't necessarily not want them, they just don't want anyone else to have them. If you're stupid enough to announce your presence, either via sov, or by not spreading out enough and having 20 people AFK in your POS when someone strolls by, you will find your TCUs and POS disappear.

Also if it isn't viable for a large entity to live there, it is likely not viable for a smaller entity to live there either. I'd love to move to Cobalt Edge to kill IRC (which is the Deklein Coalition's punching bagVery Happy, we aren't really a small holding entity but our invasions never stopped because we lost a POS or two!), Vale because it is vast and empty, not so much Kalevala because I don't want to deal with drone goo, but why should I move there with my 20-100 man corp if we can't make any sort of realistic profit? This is the key issue, and the major problem with smallholders.

I don't think you quite understand that large entities are NOT huge walls of destruction who will absolutely annihilate anything in their paths simply because they exist. Yes they have big fleets, yes they have more people than you, but there are weaknesses, and you can exploit them if you analyze the situation and find solutions.

Small holding is all about using cloaky or fast moving stuff. You can bring in the battlecruiser or battleship fleets in from high/lowsec/npc 0.0 if you really need to, but most of the fighting should be done with stealth gangs, and most of the isk is made from being sneaky. This is so you can avoid or dodge the blob if it ever forms up. After you're done, you can drop off your stuff in the POS if your cargo is full or if you need more ammo, and log off for the day. Or you can log out in space. It's hard to chase ghosts around, especially in space you don't use where intel is scarce because nobody lives there.

You can't act like a large alliance and throw your weight around with battlecruiser/battleship fleets, or fight for your life on a POS against a supercap grinder and expect to compete. Anything you make slow or static will have a heavy casualty rate. Eventually, you should "outgrow" being a small harassment/ninja group and move on to the point where you CAN compete for sovereignty, where you can have meaningful fleet fights and all the problems that come with your successes and failures.

A smallholding entity does not live or die by a single POS. The PL invasion won't stop if you kill their staging POS. Yes there will be some losses if the smaller entity doesn't move everything out in time, but you can always put more basic POS up.

You won't kick out a another entity by killing their static structures. You kick them out by constantly killing their fleets, or denying them their isk. You need to break their morale and make them want to do something else. This is how it always was, and how it always should be.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:27:00 - [258]
 

Someone here came up with a nice idea, the POS module to locate a smallholding with a long timer.

IMHO, a smallholding should be about being small and unobtrusive. andnot easily found, but once found, the enemy's overwhelming force would force them to move away. As such, the smallholding itself shouldn't be the 'issue' of taking down, it's the people using it, to truly stamp them out, but the smallholders should also always be aware of the impending blob coming their way.

As such, there are some things that IMHO must change first before a smallholding can be viable. And that is intel gathering.
Right now, it's very easy to see where people are ratting and doing stuff in sov space. You simply open up the map and check for kills etc.
For a smallholding to be viable, this should be removed, at least partially.
An idea I had this morning was, that these figures will only show up to the sov holders, in systems they hold sov. That way, if someone really owns a piece of space, they own it, and they know what is going on. Giving a use for the TCU, in giving you intel on a system. ( maybe also allow for it to tell you howmany POSses there are in the system, who owns these etc. )
If you have sov, this is your space, and your home turf, so it should be easier to find out if someone is digging around in there.
However, as said, there's many systems which are unclaimed, simply because it's not worth it for an alliance to claim them. These ofcourse are ideal spots for smallholders to set up shop with this. As there's no active intel here, the overlords of the region won't immediately know you're there. They have to go and find out by sending patrols and such, making this harder by removing local for instancce, and allowing the smallholders once they're docked up in their little deadspace pocket to be undetectable would add to this. ( ofcourse the wrecks would still be there from ratting unless cleaned up, that might give away a smallholder )

If a holding alliance suspects a smallholder to be in their wilderness area, they could then set up a POS there, with a scanning module to find them, which would put a timer on the smallholders place, once this timer runs out, the alliance will receive notification from the POS and it's scanning array that there is a smallholding in the system, and a bookmark there.
Once this bookmark has been obtained, they can send in the blob to nuke it to hell. ( either with or without reinforce timer )
this timer should be pretty long, and a POS that is scanning should not at the outset tell if there's somethign there or not. So a sov holder could potentially 'seed' all their wilderness areas with a scanner pos like this, thus immediately putting a timer on the smallholder's hideout, but until the timer runs out, they can use the place. ( and pack up before the timer runs out, and look for another place )

Sovereignity in a system would ofcourse enhance this timer, making it shorter and shorter the better the system is developped, so someone sneaking into a sov held system and putting something up there is in bigger risk than someone putting up their pocket in a wilderness area.

The holding itself can take on different shapes, but it should be easy to put down or pick up, and harder as more and more gets added to it. and ofcourse more added to it would make it easier to find. ( maybe also some kind of modules that can make it harder to find )
It should also be limited to howmany of these holdings someone can put up, and howmany a corp can put up. So you can't spam a system with 1000s of them.

Holdings should be both personal an corp based, possibly combined too, to enhance the whole thing.
A personal holding would start with a dockup place, some room for a couple of spare ships, your loot and possibly a single manufacturing slot for ammo/drones.

continued ->

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:44:00 - [259]
 

Addons could include:
-Cloaking, ie harder/(nearly) impossible to find if kept small.
-more manufacturing abilities
-more space
-refining, but limited to X m3 per 'cycle'.
-possibly also reactions ( not moon mining itself, just reactions, so you can make boosters for instance )

For a corp smallholding, these would always be possible to find eventually unlike a 1 man holding without sov.
- Everthing a personal holding can use, but more of it.
- Research/invention slots
- Cloning
- Covert Cyno gate/beacon: allow for covert ships to jump to it from another holding or a black ops bridge, and/or allow for them to jump to a covert beacon
somewhere else using the bridge generator in the holding.
This would allow for a covert 'network' to be set up, so you can sneak stuff in and out of your smallholding. While not as effective as a regular jumpgate/cyno network, it would be enough for smallholders to do their thing.

The net result of this would be that in order for big sov holders to really hold their space, they need to be able to project their power into it. Regular patrols, posses to scan for stuff, etc. thus limiting their size dependent on their member numbers and willingness to do these kinds of patrols.
Also, as the smallholding itself would be pretty much out of their reach, if the smallholders keep on their toes, the only way to really evict them would be to make it impossible to live in said piece of space, by camping gates, scanning them down if they're somewhere ratting, etc. aka, hunt down the players, not blob the structure. ( though the threat of structure blobage is still there, so the defenders can't just sit in a system and languish there eternally )
As long as the smallholders are smart, mobile and on their toes, they can elude a big alliance for a while, until they become such a nuiscance they send in more and more people to 'deal' with them. ( or offer them a renting spot :) )

Decus Daga
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:35:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Stan Durden
I think some of these ideas conflict with any chance of making null more profitable for indy. The mini structures a lot of you are talking about would be perfect for small raiding gangs to work out of.


Hmm your certaintly right, as posted below you perhaps add a scanning module to pos's, say a 24-36 hour scanner(that notify's anyone with one of the "hidden" mini-pos's that they are being scanned to give them a chance to get out, if they want to.) - Some sort of system to stop people un-anchoring and re-anchoring after the timers up will be necessary.

I do like the idea of a small holding of some sort, but it will definatly need a lot of work to balance correctly.

Perhaps instead of a anchorable building, it could instead be a ship, one that will auto-warp off until someone lands on grid within 15km of its location(anyone not necessarily the holder).

So pilot A can fly that "baseship" to the location, eject and jump into a ship from the hanger, warp off and after say 5 minutes the "baseship" cloaks or something.

With a 5 min timer they wont be invul(im assuming a baseship will have a mother of a sig radius, so it could be combat-probed down easily within 5 minutes), it is jump-drive capable, has limited storage.

The only real difference would be the auto-cloak when nothing is in range of it.


Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:02:00 - [261]
 

While raiders can use smallholdings to conduct raids, I think it would also work in indy's favor. setting up a smallholding in a sov system, under the watchfull gaze of their overlords/protectors, the smallholding would be a safe haven for them to dock up, and perform their manufacturing/research.

They would have all the tools they need to run production chains and refine their ore and make their products to take to the local station/market.
Meanwhile, this spot would be very safe, as it can't be scanned down without a POS scanner array.
As a smallholding wouldn't have a force shield but a docking bay ( which can't take on capitals, except maybe the rorq ), storing those in such a site is impossible, you would still need a regular pos for that or a real station.

If enemies show up in a system, they can stop their mining activities and dock up in their holding, safe from raiders, or get their PvP ships to support their protectors.

On slightly offtopic/tangent. As smallholdings would require local to be removed, or similar obfuscation of the little raiding groups in the wastelands, maybe only allow 'regular' local in Sov claimed systems, or allow for Sov holders to put up some kind of jump scanner array at a gate in their system, which registers whoever enters the system and lets everyone in system know they have entered the system, possibly with shiptype.
This would give the sov holders a nice hometurf advantage, as the invaders don't know who/what is in system, but the invadees would know who is entering their system through a gate. Ofcourse if they don't use a gate, but a cyno/covert cyno this won't register. But watchfull eyes can find those and 'deal' with it or scout them out at least.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:57:00 - [262]
 

Smallholding is one of the aspects most talked about in the forums regarding the 0.0 expansion. I can see why! It incorperates many ideas and solutions for several problems I know I feel are plaguing the game. I know it is one of the things I hope to see in this iteration of the 0.0 iteration.

At the moment I feel a small group of friends in EVE is somewhat lost what to do in space (lets call the Bittervets Inc.) Since EVE is meant to be a social game that is sad. 4-6 People cannot really expand into 0.0 without giving away their independance. A corp with such low numbers won't be easily admitted in an alliance unless if merges with others.

They can try to do some FW but that is broken and boring. They could go to wormholes but the limited size of their group would mean they can't do anything significant without very good coordination and lots of online time. This is not always possible with grown ups with lives. At least when you go to the higherclass WH's wich is where older player would want to go.

A smallholding would make it so that these guys have can run a small scale operation in real space. Without to much hassle, providing they do have some head for logistics and taskmanagement. They would have acces to markets and have a real "home" and meetingplace that can serve as a center for them and looser allies. Depending on their location they could serve several functions and have several ways of income.

It also adds some content to the 1.0 and 0.5 and lower end of the spectrum since Greyscale wishes to see iterations of smallholding everywhere. It also adds a modular (I hope), dockable starbase like system like the in the orginal "flogging dead horse concept" that has been a fan favorite for years now.

Many of the ideas of CCP Greyscale are very welcome. I hope he'll be able to implement them and chose smallholding as one of the more important updates in the winter expansion. I for one would see myself coming back to eve if such a thing existed.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:50:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: EI Digin
Originally by: Sigras
... space [that] is controlled by a large alliance [will] kill everyone who tries to set up shop there ...


Vacant systems are vacant because they are not worth the sov bills. An alliance has a small interest in them because they can sov up if they are under pressure and cause more timers. They don't necessarily not want them, they just don't want anyone else to have them. If you're stupid enough to announce your presence, either via sov, or by not spreading out enough and having 20 people AFK in your POS when someone strolls by, you will find your TCUs and POS disappear.


First of all, ferocious misquoting much? secondly, but your argument is that a POS that has nobody AFK in it when someone strolls by will be left alone? good luck.


Originally by: EI Digin
Small holding is all about using cloaky or fast moving stuff. You can bring in the battlecruiser or battleship fleets in from high/lowsec/npc 0.0 if you really need to, but most of the fighting should be done with stealth gangs, and most of the isk is made from being sneaky. This is so you can avoid or dodge the blob if it ever forms up. After you're done, you can drop off your stuff in the POS if your cargo is full or if you need more ammo, and log off for the day. Or you can log out in space. It's hard to chase ghosts around, especially in space you don't use where intel is scarce because nobody lives there.


except if such a group was doing that, they'd come back to a reinforced POS that's been caged. See, the problem is that if you drop off your loot at the POS, its as good as gone as soon as the large entity finds it.

Originally by: EI Digin
You can't act like a large alliance and throw your weight around with battlecruiser/battleship fleets, or fight for your life on a POS against a supercap grinder and expect to compete. Anything you make slow or static will have a heavy casualty rate.


you mean like a POS that holds potentially all of your loot and a lot of isk invested in modules etc?

Originally by: EI Digin
A smallholding entity does not live or die by a single POS. The PL invasion won't stop if you kill their staging POS. Yes there will be some losses if the smaller entity doesn't move everything out in time, but you can always put more basic POS up.

You won't kick out a another entity by killing their static structures. You kick them out by constantly killing their fleets, or denying them their isk. You need to break their morale and make them want to do something else. This is how it always was, and how it always should be.


Smallholding - Senor, you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Every post from CCP has indicated they want this to be a smaller entity co-existing with a larger one so long as they stay out of the way. It isnt an invasion, it'd done for a profit, and losing a few hundred million every week cuts into your bottom line, which you're not worrying about in an invasion.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:39:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Sigras
First of all, ferocious misquoting much?
That line was a major point in your post. It wasn't exactly what you said, but the idea was there.

Originally by: Sigras
secondly, but your argument is that a POS that has nobody AFK in it when someone strolls by will be left alone? good luck.
Do you think everyone who strolls through 15 empty systems doing supply runs to empire looks through dscan and goes to every POS in the system to make sure they aren't hostile? Sure if you are looking for trouble and decide to roam through empty space, or a member of the logistics team who knows where all of the large entity's POS are, you can definitely find it. Then you have to inform the correct people and they will decide if it's worthy of any attention, because you won't be able to take out that POS in your blockade runner. And then, when the small entity notices an unnormal amount of traffic going through the systems you occupy that were previously empty, or if you see hostile FC's and their alts go around setting up bookmarks, a small entity can get the feeling that their system was scouted and take everything down only to move everything a few systems over.

Originally by: Sigras
except if such a group was doing that, they'd come back to a reinforced POS that's been caged. See, the problem is that if you drop off your loot at the POS, its as good as gone as soon as the large entity finds it.
...
you mean like a POS that holds potentially all of your loot and a lot of isk invested in modules etc?

When a POS is reinforced, you have upwards of 2 days and some amount of hours to get your stuff out if it's in the SMA, maybe the CHA if mechanics are changed, and to get your guys out of the POS if they've logged out in there. Unless the sovholders are dedicated enough to have 23/7 TZ coverage on your POS, kills are going to slip away, loot is going to get out, and the cage will be brought down. It also necessitates weekly (or daily if you feel the world is ending) supply runs to send loot to empire. POS service mods do not scale very well either, because anything you put up will inevitably be lost. The idea is you make so much isk that replacing a small POS with a SMA/CHA and some defense mods is an acceptable cost of living there. Right now, it isn't because you can't get much isk/hour in null.

Originally by: Sigras
Every post from CCP has indicated they want this to be a smaller entity co-existing with a larger one so long as they stay out of the way. It isnt an invasion, it'd done for a profit, and losing a few hundred million every week cuts into your bottom line, which you're not worrying about in an invasion.

Sure, you can co-exist with a large entity. You have to rent space, provide enough people to fleets, or prove yourself worthy to a large entity. Positive standings or non-invasion pacts do not come for free, traditionally you give up your autonomy for space. If you are "chill" or trustworthy enough a large alliance might let you live on its edges for a NIP and nothing else. But we all know what happens when you let the mafia do you favors. Even if you negotiate an agreement, either party could go back on their word, because they can.

Are you still a smallholding entity if you sell your soul for space? I feel as though if you join a large coalition or power block, you don't count as a smallholder because you have essentially lost your freedom. You don't own the space given to you because they can decide to evict you for whatever reason they want. You have no power!

If you choose to play in hostile space without negotiating with the larger entity, even if you are not directly attacking the larger entity it sure is an invasion! One day the smaller entity could become a threat to your sov!

The larger power blocks are big enough as it is. Would the game be more fun with an endless amount of pets and huge blue lists? Or a bunch of smaller entities fighting for the scraps a large entity leaves behind

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:03:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 02/09/2011 00:04:01


First off - El Digin - thanks for al posting to relieve the insanity that is Sigras.
Sigras, I swear, you couldn't get it if I tatooed it on your forehead.

Let me put it this way. If we make small and or Medium POS's INVULNERABLE then will someone be able to siege it with "A HUNDRED DREADS". No. Like El Digin has been cool to point out. Wars are won on morale.

Small holding is all about morale.

If you give small holders a small or medium pos that is behind an invincible shield that can do no more than a few things that the PG/CPU allows then it isn't a big deal to WHATEVER alliance.

You argue it could be a staging ground...for what? Two dreads? How did they get in there. Even if they did then bring the 100 dread fleet and take them out. Not to mention they have to light a cyno and if the system is cyno jammed I would like to know how you think they can get them in there?! Again - you don't read my posts. Just make it so small and medium pos's can't assemble cap ships due to PG/CPU and viola. No threat but a "GARAGE" in effect.

Also - you complain about big alliances not liking it - DEAL WITH IT. This will encourage PVP or diplomacy. PERIOD.

People like you who are totally xenophobic - go move to a C6 Buried wormhole, build your 100 dreads and close off all the entrances. I like my own piece of the pie but really what El Digin and I are suggesting is NOT A BIG DEAL.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:59:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Sigras
The closest thing Eve has to small holding right now is renting, and that is by no means small.


Wormhole Space. Best Smallholdings in Eve...

CCP - trying to reinvent the wheel...Rolling Eyes

Originally by: EI Digin


Originally by: Sigras
secondly, but your argument is that a POS that has nobody AFK in it when someone strolls by will be left alone? good luck.
Do you think everyone who strolls through 15 empty systems doing supply runs to empire looks through dscan and goes to every POS in the system to make sure they aren't hostile?

Daily life in a Worm hole. 1st thing (if it's not done already) find your wormholes/check sigs in system. 2nd thing? Jump into whatever you find, and check *all* moons for pos', piloted ships and force fields. So yeah, once you get used to it, scanning down moons is not a chore.

Big alliances especially will have people dedicated to the task (if POS' are used as the "small holding") because they have so many other uses...

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Edited by: Ms Michigan on 02/09/2011 00:04:01
First off - El Digin - thanks for al posting to relieve the insanity that is Sigras.
Sigras, I swear, you couldn't get it if I tatooed it on your forehead.

Let me put it this way. If we make small and or Medium POS's INVULNERABLE then will someone be able to siege it with "A HUNDRED DREADS". No. Like El Digin has been cool to point out. Wars are won on morale.

Small holding is all about morale.

If you give small holders a small or medium pos that is behind an invincible shield that can do no more than a few things that the PG/CPU allows then it isn't a big deal to WHATEVER alliance.

You argue it could be a staging ground...for what? Two dreads? How did they get in there. Even if they did then bring the 100 dread fleet and take them out. Not to mention they have to light a cyno and if the system is cyno jammed I would like to know how you think they can get them in there?! Again - you don't read my posts. Just make it so small and medium pos's can't assemble cap ships due to PG/CPU and viola. No threat but a "GARAGE" in effect.

Also - you complain about big alliances not liking it - DEAL WITH IT. This will encourage PVP or diplomacy. PERIOD.

People like you who are totally xenophobic - go move to a C6 Buried wormhole, build your 100 dreads and close off all the entrances. I like my own piece of the pie but really what El Digin and I are suggesting is NOT A BIG DEAL.

It actually is a *HUGE* deal, and until something better is thought up, this idea is dead in the water.

If it's a cyno jammed system, it's going to be cyno jammed by the owners. I *believe* they will know how to get around it...Rolling Eyes

It is a HUGE security risk for large alliances. Deal with *that* issue first. You make a POS invulnerable (small/medium/large/whatever) that will be gamed to hell and gone.

That's why I live in Wormholes (the original "small holding" of Eve Online!).



Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:36:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes


Daily life in a Worm hole. 1st thing (if it's not done already) find your wormholes/check sigs in system. 2nd thing? Jump into whatever you find, and check *all* moons for pos', piloted ships and force fields. So yeah, once you get used to it, scanning down moons is not a chore.

Big alliances especially will have people dedicated to the task (if POS' are used as the "small holding") because they have so many other uses...

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Edited by: Ms Michigan on 02/09/2011 00:04:01
First off - El Digin - thanks for al posting to relieve the insanity that is Sigras.
Sigras, I swear, you couldn't get it if I tatooed it on your forehead.

Let me put it this way. If we make small and or Medium POS's INVULNERABLE then will someone be able to siege it with "A HUNDRED DREADS". No. Like El Digin has been cool to point out. Wars are won on morale.

Small holding is all about morale.

If you give small holders a small or medium pos that is behind an invincible shield that can do no more than a few things that the PG/CPU allows then it isn't a big deal to WHATEVER alliance.

You argue it could be a staging ground...for what? Two dreads? How did they get in there. Even if they did then bring the 100 dread fleet and take them out. Not to mention they have to light a cyno and if the system is cyno jammed I would like to know how you think they can get them in there?! Again - you don't read my posts. Just make it so small and medium pos's can't assemble cap ships due to PG/CPU and viola. No threat but a "GARAGE" in effect.

Also - you complain about big alliances not liking it - DEAL WITH IT. This will encourage PVP or diplomacy. PERIOD.

People like you who are totally xenophobic - go move to a C6 Buried wormhole, build your 100 dreads and close off all the entrances. I like my own piece of the pie but really what El Digin and I are suggesting is NOT A BIG DEAL.

It actually is a *HUGE* deal, and until something better is thought up, this idea is dead in the water.

If it's a cyno jammed system, it's going to be cyno jammed by the owners. I *believe* they will know how to get around it...Rolling Eyes

It is a HUGE security risk for large alliances. Deal with *that* issue first. You make a POS invulnerable (small/medium/large/whatever) that will be gamed to hell and gone.

That's why I live in Wormholes (the original "small holding" of Eve Online!).




Asuri - You basically just proved my whole pitch for Small holding POS's. I just don't think you realize it.

First - you say it is a *HUGE* deal. It may be to a SOV holder who is totally Xenophobic but that is the point myself, Greyscale (I believe) and others are making. You can't have Small holding PERIOD with out ****ing Alliances off in some way. Think about it this way - if it were hidden dead space that would **** off SOV holders more because then it would be a stealthy home with God knows how many ships hiding in it waiting to stage a takeover.
At least with my idea the SMALL/MED POS is in PLAIN SITE. You mentioned scanning in WH's (I do the same thing daily myself) and how you check the moons. Don't you think SOV holders would do the same thing? To see if "Life" sprung up overnight and to immediately address it! One of 3 things then happens: 1) They surround them and force them out because they just can't handle it. 2) They ignore it because they can see it isn't a threat and watch them daily. or 3) They diplo and they become friends. See it really does work letting squatters in.

Second - you mentioned the cyno thing - I mean the SOV holde has the cynojammer on - not the new people. How could they? This way the SOV holder is safe. No biggie - your point?

Third - Small or Med POS's WON'T BE GAMED TO HELL because they will be reworked in PG/CPU stats to preclude them from being able to do much besides be a garage. : ) See that wasn't so hard was it!

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:38:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Wormhole Space. Best Smallholdings in Eve...
I agree that wormhole space is a good place to take specific samples from for smallholding groups. But you have to understand that wormhole stuff is mostly small holding versus small holding, there aren't very many large groups like there are in nullsec. Mass limits preventing large fleets, supercaps, and titans, as well as not being able to jump from wormhole to wormhole via cynos makes it a totally different way to play.

Small entities thrive in wormholes because your small group can be immensely profitable if you farm out a system. (do you see any small entities in nullsec doing this? it's not profitable to live in nullsec like this!) Logistics is hell, and manufacturing things isn't very easy. There are some parallels you can take from smallholding wormhole entities and what smallholding 0.0 entities should have access to.

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Daily life in a Worm hole. 1st thing (if it's not done already) find your wormholes/check sigs in system. 2nd thing? Jump into whatever you find, and check *all* moons for pos', piloted ships and force fields. So yeah, once you get used to it, scanning down moons is not a chore.

Big alliances especially will have people dedicated to the task (if POS' are used as the "small holding") because they have so many other uses...
It's a different story if you have 50-100 systems to look through. It's very tedious work, even if you have a couple guys to help. It can be done but considerable effort has to be made. Effort versus results, morale, etc etc read my previous posts.

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
It is a HUGE security risk for large alliances. Deal with *that* issue first.
A large alliance is going to eventually end up finding whatever new or old mechanic in place that you use to live in and try to evict you. A small entity has to get over their loss. Morale, etc. I've gone over this before.

I don't understand why so many people equate "you have been evicted YARRRR!!" with "your staging POS is dead". Don't leave stuff lying around that you can't afford to lose! Anything you have in nullsec should already be written off as lost. This is the natural order of things in 0.0.

By the way, POS already have temporary invulnerability mechanics through reinforcement timers. I do not believe this should be changed in any way, save for possibly making the corporate hangar array use 0 cpu so a small entity can get their stuff out if they are attacked, or MAYBE increasing max stront times for smaller POS. I also believe that POS should be easier to set up by making modules smaller in size. so that one or two blockade runners have enough room to put up a small POS.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:57:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Let me put it this way. If we make small and or Medium POS's INVULNERABLE then will someone be able to siege it with "A HUNDRED DREADS". No.


If you make the POS INVULNERABLE, how does this fit with CCP's stated design goals to wit
Originally by: CCP Dev Blog
Everything in nullsec should be vulnerablee, but for smaller-scale stuff it should be easy to see the end coming, and either deal with it or plan for it. It should be possible for the bigger players to evict the smaller ones without too much investment, but it should take time to do so.


"Everything in nullsec should be vulnerable" sounds the opposite of "If we make small and or Medium POS's INVULNERABLE . . " to me

Also, you think that giving people a place to muster, store replacement ships and ammo, and refit their ships, that is completely invulnerable and cant be destroyed is fair? People complain all the time about AFK cloaking, and that doesnt have half the utility of what you're proposing.

Originally by: Ms Michigan
If you give small holders a small or medium pos that is behind an invincible shield that can do no more than a few things that the PG/CPU allows then it isn't a big deal to WHATEVER alliance.


yeah, large alliances are ALWAYS friendly to people of unknown intent anchoring POSs in their systems. Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Ms Michigan
You argue it could be a staging ground...for what?


as many ships as I can fit in the shield bubble . . . I think my record for a small POS is 200 ships? Its safe place in hostile territory to refit, reship and re-arm.

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Two dreads? How did they get in there. Even if they did then bring the 100 dread fleet and take them out.


How exactly do you propose they do that when you just said the POS would be invulnerable?

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Just make it so small and medium pos's can't assemble cap ships due to PG/CPU and viola. No threat but a "GARAGE" in effect.


In WWII, if the Germans had put an airbase in Cuba, but it didnt make new airplanes, it just launched ones that got shipped in, do you think the US would have considered that a threat? all it is, is a glorified garage . . . its what comes out of the garage that I dont want to deal with.


Originally by: Ms Michigan
You can't have Small holding PERIOD with out ****ing Alliances off in some way.


Which is why I said, the only defense is if they dont know you're there

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Think about it this way - if it were hidden dead space that would **** off SOV holders more because then it would be a stealthy home with God knows how many ships hiding in it waiting to stage a takeover.


Please go back and read my idea again, it proposes a hidden base that would be a safe place to go for groups that are small enough and smart enough not to get noticed, but if a large group notices you, they could have you gone in a few short days; it even self scales, so the more ships coming and going, the faster it is found.

your main defense should be that the larger alliance never knows youre there.

El 1974
Posted - 2011.09.02 08:06:00 - [270]
 

I'm against something invulnerable for obvious reasons. But it could be hard to destroy or even practicly invulnerable if certain conditions were met. E.g. it's hard to destroy if the system isn't actively used. Or it could tie in with Dust: a planetary orbital structure that's safe as long as you have it linked up and supported by friendlies on the planet, but will be vulnerable as soon as the other side destroys/conquers the planetary structures supporting it.


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